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Jamwad Hilder posted:I actually really like the blue tree regardless of the faction I'm playing, lately. I feel like at least rank 1 lightning strike is a necessity on VH or Legendary, or at least it's become one for me, and at that point I feel like I might as well invest in some of the high tier blue skills. Overall your lord will be slightly less meaty, but you should be able to hit most of the important stuff+troop buffs. Lightning Strike is way better than it really has a right to be simply because the AI doesn't play around it at all and will just cheerfully let you obliterate one 'protected' half stack after another for the rest of the game. I think it's a no-brainer for Chaos (or at least makes it way smoother) and not a bad idea with any other faction. quote:PS: Anyone else disappointed with AI Beastmen? They seem to get killed off really early and all the brayherds that spawn later on are easily dealt with. Even the warherd of chaos was a joke and died against a VC town in my latest empire playthrough. I don't know, is that really any different than the Savage Orcs? Except for the ones that spawn in the Badlands where they can actually take over stuff, I never see them last very long either.
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Aug 4, 2016 03:51
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fnordcircle posted:I took it to mean 'overly-cautious armies make more sense in some sort of ultra medieval sim not in a game where occasionally I'd like to be the defender mowing down the enemy with my goblins and goat persons" Yeah this what I meant, sorry for the confusion. I get that maybe the undead would be content to chill outside your walls while the garrison starves to death but Orcs are the biological manifestation of bloodlust and Chaos are the pawns of bloodthirsty gods. Having them sit with their thumbs up their green and/or spiky arses feels completely off and removes one of the most fun parts of Total War. It's not a huge thing but when the game is just about perfect otherwise, these niggles stand out all the more.
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Aug 4, 2016 06:01
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:Yeah this what I meant, sorry for the confusion. So what's the solution then? Give the AI an inflated sense of if it can take towns? Or have them roll up with all the extra siege equipment they need with the caveat that they'll attack in three turns no matter what? I agree that town sacking by the AI shouldn't be a binary thing where the only question asked is "Does this city have walls?"
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Aug 4, 2016 06:30
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Triskelli posted:So what's the solution then? Give the AI an inflated sense of if it can take towns? Or have them roll up with all the extra siege equipment they need with the caveat that they'll attack in three turns no matter what? Perhaps make besieging armies take attrition as well as the garrison?
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Aug 4, 2016 09:11
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Avasculous posted:I don't know, is that really any different than the Savage Orcs? Except for the ones that spawn in the Badlands where they can actually take over stuff, I never see them last very long either. Yeah. I guess it's just kind of a bummer that the Beastmen factions seem like "Savage Orcs 2.0" instead of another Chaos faction that can actually threaten you.
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Aug 4, 2016 13:08
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In both the VH hard Empire campaigns I've started since the DLC the Beastmen have tried to bum rush Helmgart, been repelled with ease and not had any further significant impact. It's a shame because they're stupidly fun to fight.
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Aug 4, 2016 13:23
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The Warherd of Chaos gave me a lot of trouble, because they managed a successful ambush of my army under Karl Franz and while most of the army and its accompanying heroes escaped intact after the defeat it did result in the destruction of my max-experience steam tank and the loss of some demigryph units.
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Aug 4, 2016 13:33
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Does increased experience not increase damage on missile units anymore? If so when did they change that?
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Aug 4, 2016 14:05
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terrorist ambulance posted:Does increased experience not increase damage on missile units anymore? If so when did they change that?
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Aug 4, 2016 14:10
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Endorph posted:Each rank of EXP gives different bonuses. First rank increases leadership and melee damage, second rank increases missile damage. Wait, what?
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Aug 4, 2016 14:11
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The hotfix beta has been replaced with a regular patch. FYI. No apparent changes.
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Aug 4, 2016 14:21
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Experience never boosted missile damage, it boosted rate of fire. The number you see on the unit card is a sort of DPS calculation, so faster firing time = higher unit card damage
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Aug 4, 2016 14:52
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Has anyone else noticed that Reiksguard cavalry are like, really, really slow? They have a speed of 66 and I think I'm only noticing how prohibitively slow they are now after playing Beastmen, but a lot of infantry can almost outrun them.
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Aug 4, 2016 14:59
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Heavy Cav in general are pretty slow, especially when tired. It's an intentional design decision. Light Cav is a lot faster at the expense of charge impact and durability.
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Aug 4, 2016 15:35
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So I'm playing a head-to-head campaign as VC, with my opponent being greenskins. He's just finished krumping the Dwarfs and is now eyeing me up, as such he's got a full stack of black orcs. My question is, what the hell do I do to deal with this? What's the best counter?
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Aug 4, 2016 15:36
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DaveCG posted:So I'm playing a head-to-head campaign as VC, with my opponent being greenskins. He's just finished krumping the Dwarfs and is now eyeing me up, as such he's got a full stack of black orcs. My question is, what the hell do I do to deal with this? What's the best counter? Black Orcs have no anti-large bonus so cavalry charges and monsters will do a real number on them.
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Aug 4, 2016 15:44
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WHAT A GOOD DOG posted:Has anyone else noticed that Reiksguard cavalry are like, really, really slow? They have a speed of 66 and I think I'm only noticing how prohibitively slow they are now after playing Beastmen, but a lot of infantry can almost outrun them. That's about what you would expect for the mid tier armored and shielded calv. Black knights are speed 76 but also have 40 less armor and no shields. Boar boys are even slower at speed 60 and have like half the melee attack and half the armor that reiksguard does. They are the exact same speed as Chaos Knights. They get outran by beastmen, but beastmen outrun basically everyone. Keep in mind also that fatigue plays a big role in unit speed. If you're microing Reiksguard and chain charging them at an enemy they are going to get super fatigued by the end of a fight and at that point they basically can be outran by infantry. Edit: For what it's worth as greenskins I prefer Spider riders to boar boys. Boar boys are chargier and armor piercing, but they have poo poo attack rating and are kind of bad at straight fighting if they are stuck in. Spider Riders are significantly faster, have a spot higher melee attack and significantly higher melee defense in exchange for slightly lower leadership (until research effects kick in) and slightly less armor. They loose in armor piercing damage, but make up for it with poison, which helps them stick to their prey and gives them a significant advantage and a reason to stay in and fight during a flank charge. DeathSandwich fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 15:48
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madmac posted:Heavy Cav in general are pretty slow, especially when tired. It's an intentional design decision. Light Cav is a lot faster at the expense of charge impact and durability. I wish I had never played beastmen, I've been spoiled by their go fastitude.
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Aug 4, 2016 16:44
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Kaza42 posted:Experience never boosted missile damage, it boosted rate of fire. The number you see on the unit card is a sort of DPS calculation, so faster firing time = higher unit card damage Ok but has that been changed? I was recruiting relatively experienced ungors during the veterancy moon phase and the damage on their card wasn't higher. Wasn't sure if that was a quirk to them or if it's the same for all missile units now. High veterancy quarrelers are a hilarious lawn mower I'd be sad to see gone
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Aug 4, 2016 16:57
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terrorist ambulance posted:Ok but has that been changed? I was recruiting relatively experienced ungors during the veterancy moon phase and the damage on their card wasn't higher. Wasn't sure if that was a quirk to them or if it's the same for all missile units now. No, the damage rating is a measure of how much damage a single(?) archer can do a period of ten seconds, while hovering over the damage gives you a full breakdown of base damage and AP damage for every arrow fired. Reload speed increases with every rank-up, but the unit can only fire so many times within ten seconds, so the damage listed on the unit card goes up gradually instead of going up with every rank like leadership or melee attack/defense. Changing topics, but has anyone given Dragon Ogres another look now that they've been given an anti-large boost? I support the change since it shows CA is interested in giving each army units to fill "roles" (in this case as anti-cav cavalry) but I haven't heard anything about people using them effectively./
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Aug 4, 2016 17:19
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I'll be real, I've beat chaos on very hard and never used a dragon ogre because I don't even know what role they're supposed to fill and they look dumb. Anti-cavalry (and anti-large), for me, is just cavalry or halberdier chosen. Anti-infantry is sword and shield chosen, or lance cavalry. Anti-range is lance cavalry or maybe dogs. Between those roles, I pepper in a hellcannon if I give a poo poo and maybe a giant or two, and I only lose if I'm grossly outnumbered, which is often because of horde infighting  .
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Aug 4, 2016 17:34
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dragon ogres can beat demigryphs with halberds in even one-on-one combat
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Aug 4, 2016 17:47
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John Charity Spring posted:Black Orcs have no anti-large bonus so cavalry charges and monsters will do a real number on them. OK cool, thanks. Would you recommend black knight, black knights with lances or blood knights? I was thinking blood as I can use them on his giants.
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Aug 4, 2016 18:16
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Endorph posted:dragon ogres can beat demigryphs with halberds in even one-on-one combat Dragon Ogres are big and smash things, which is very chaos
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Aug 4, 2016 18:21
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Is there a mod or is it just regular coop, where you can both control the same army in a battle? Like archon mode in SC2. Otherwise I can see it getting boring for someone if they're not fighting.
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Aug 4, 2016 18:26
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Triskelli posted:No, the damage rating is a measure of how much damage a single(?) archer can do a period of ten seconds, while hovering over the damage gives you a full breakdown of base damage and AP damage for every arrow fired. IMO the dragon ogre anti-large bonus isn't enough to substantially change their role, but at least it means they aren't a complete embarrassment. They will absolutely stomp "medium" cavalry like black knights, which is nice. They're probably worth using in the campaign, but they cost too much for what they do in multiplayer.
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Aug 4, 2016 18:27
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DaveCG posted:OK cool, thanks. Would you recommend black knight, black knights with lances or blood knights? I was thinking blood as I can use them on his giants. I tend to go for black knights with lance and barding for the extra punch on the charge, but only because blood knights are so expensive. If you can afford blood knights, then they'll do great work. edit: the guy below me has way better advice actually, I completely forgot cairn wraiths John Charity Spring fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 18:31
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DaveCG posted:OK cool, thanks. Would you recommend black knight, black knights with lances or blood knights? I was thinking blood as I can use them on his giants. Cairn wraiths + crypt horrors + overcast nehek is the best way to smash armored infantry as VC. Send the wraiths and horrors in together (long line or mass, either works, just don't let the crypt horrors get ahead) and overcast nehek on your center when they get down to 2/3 up or so. The wraiths soak almost all of the damage and the crypt horrors provide poison and big dps. Though the wraiths don't do great damage, it is armor-piercing which is key vs. black orcs. Mix in a couple units of blood knights to protect against enemy cav or giants and cycle in rear charges during the infantry fight. Vox Nihili fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 18:32
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So I'm looking to add some additions to my minotaur and ungor hordes. Do I want centigors, razorgors, or maybe do I want to tech up towards Chaos spawn?
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Aug 4, 2016 18:32
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I like having a couple of Centigors for chasing down routing units, flanking and attacking artillery. Super fast vanguard deploy cav is nice. Giants are cool too because they never run and never die, they're great meatshields. Chaos Spawn look neat but they're just basically poopier Minotaurs.
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Aug 4, 2016 18:41
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Centigors probably are the most useful next thing to add to a wad of gors and minotaurs but really you just want like six infantry gors, maybe some archers, a gorebull and a bray shaman and the rest various types of Minotaur. All your poo poo is so fast you really don't need cavalry.
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Aug 4, 2016 18:43
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Sharzak posted:Centigors probably are the most useful next thing to add to a wad of gors and minotaurs but really you just want like six infantry gors, maybe some archers, a gorebull and a bray shaman and the rest various types of Minotaur. All your poo poo is so fast you really don't need cavalry. Given how nasty fatigue penalties are, I feel like centigors immunity to fatiguing might be there best asset in long battles, if you can keep their leadership up.
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Aug 4, 2016 18:49
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Centigors are fun because they never get tired so you can use them to mess with AI. I ended up going with the giant though, mostly because I think they are just fun but also because they are great in ambush fights when the opponent can't shoot them to death before they get to the fight because they can start like 3 steps away, and their fear also helps the enemy break quickly. Still, with gors, ungor archers, and minotaurs you are pretty much covered so take whatever seems like the most fun. I've only used razorgors a few times and they seemed underwhelming (minotaurs are just so good).
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Aug 4, 2016 18:56
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Beastmen have inspired me to give Chaos another earnest try - just ignore the north and rely on auto as little as possible. I think I finally got a feel for horde gameplay.
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Aug 4, 2016 20:28
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AttitudeAdjuster posted:I wish the AI was more willing to assault walked towns/capitals. It feels like they'll only commit if they have overwhelming numerical superiority. I miss playing Medieval Total War 2 for this reason. Hell I even had some awesome siege games in Shogun 2 and Empire. I miss having an actual town to defend, as well. Having 3-4 spear militia blocking off a street and forcing the AI into a bottleneck was always one of the best parts about TW games.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:36
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Rand alPaul posted:I miss playing Medieval Total War 2 for this reason. Hell I even had some awesome siege games in Shogun 2 and Empire. Attila did that okay, but I really miss the satisfaction of packing a ton of knights down a street, then bowling them over with a rear lance charge. I'm playing Rome 2 and Attila right now, and they're missing the satisfaction of knocking Huns around like bowling pins. I hope the good unit-to-unit fighting of Warhammer translates to any future historical TW games. I don't care what the weird masochists who jack off to decaptiations and those massacre videos want, the Empire-through Attila (Shogun 2 was good though) systems lack the satisfying charges of Rome, Warhammer, and Medieval Plan Z fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Aug 4, 2016 |
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Aug 4, 2016 21:44
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People say to ignore the north as Chaos but I had a lot of success on Very Hard sending one stack to subjugate the north while the other stack raided the poo poo out of the empire, it's really useful to be able sack nordland and ostland then make a quick sailing trip north to replenish.
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Aug 4, 2016 21:47
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Nanomashoes posted:People say to ignore the north as Chaos but I had a lot of success on Very Hard sending one stack to subjugate the north while the other stack raided the poo poo out of the empire, it's really useful to be able sack nordland and ostland then make a quick sailing trip north to replenish. It's not that it's tactically unsound - I think I was in better shape for having done it on my first chaos campaign. It's just that I don't find fighting missile cav as chaos very fun and I resort to autoresolve waaay more than I'd like. It's just a lot more fun to fight diverse armies.
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Aug 4, 2016 22:25
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The secret to raiding even deeper into the empire with an early chaos stack is that there are rivers everywhere and naval combat doesn't exist yet. So as long as you bring an agent to scout you can just woop woop woop into the water and escape, just like the AI loves to do. You don't really need to stick to the north/replenishing to do that since being able to take the rivers to soft targets and sack/raid just lets you merge and buy entirely new units. The risk is fairly low especially with how bad the AI is at pathing. Also, I don't think I'd ever play a game without any autoresolve since when it's like 2 guys versus a 20 stack I don't really want to sit through one minute-plus loading screens for each guy I'll kill in seconds regardless of auto or not. I feel like I saw whether or not you've used autoresolve somewhere as a flag in the startpos, but unless there's still an achievement for it it's probably just a remnant from Rome 2.
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Aug 4, 2016 23:11
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Nanomashoes posted:People say to ignore the north as Chaos but I had a lot of success on Very Hard sending one stack to subjugate the north while the other stack raided the poo poo out of the empire, it's really useful to be able sack nordland and ostland then make a quick sailing trip north to replenish. It doesn't really make sense to do that because a stack that isn't doing anything is costing you more than 2000 favour per turn. So sending a stack to the north to replenish is actually costing you a minimum of 6000 favour in upkeep during those wasted turns, which is far more than the cost of recruiting new troops, assuming you stack stuff like Inspiration on exalted champions.
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Aug 4, 2016 23:17
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