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Sauron's attacks on Lothlorien, Mirkwood elves and the Lonely Mountain are all basically unrelated to the attack on Gondor, right? As in, their immediate successes are not dependent on each other. But the bad guys lose everywhere, not just at Minas Tirith. Does this mean that Sauron is a lovely strategist? Or maybe he just didn't care about immediately defeating those other places, and just needed to keep them distracted.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:25
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Here’s the bit I was thinking of.quote:’[Sauron] knows that this precious thing which he lost has been found again; but he does not yet know where it is, or so we hope. And therefore he is now in great doubt. For if we have found this thing, there are some among us with strength enough to wield it. That too he knows. For do I not guess rightly, Aragorn, that you have shown yourself to him in the Stone of Orthanc?’ Gandalf wants Sauron’s armies to attack them, because otherwise they will just be sitting around in Mordor and Sauron’s focus will be on them, making it impossible for Frodo to succeed. But Sauron WON’T attack them yet of his own accord, not because he doesn’t think he would win (he would), but because he thinks he could win much more easily if his enemies first expend their strength by killing each other for the lordship of the Ring (or at least that’s what G thinks, according to the bolded bit). That’s why he argues that they should provoke Sauron to a fight.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:28
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Orcs and the other assorted monsters in his army cannot function in a coordinated fashion without a dark lord imposing his will on them. I think once the orcs scattered the men surrendered There's a plausible argument to be made from bits and pieces of textual evidence (especially his essays in hotm) that orcs are not independently sentient
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Apr 29, 2019 23:29
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SHISHKABOB posted:Sauron's attacks on Lothlorien, Mirkwood elves and the Lonely Mountain are all basically unrelated to the attack on Gondor, right? As in, their immediate successes are not dependent on each other. But the bad guys lose everywhere, not just at Minas Tirith. Does this mean that Sauron is a lovely strategist? Or maybe he just didn't care about immediately defeating those other places, and just needed to keep them distracted.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:30
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cheetah7071 posted:Orcs and the other assorted monsters in his army cannot function in a coordinated fashion without a dark lord imposing his will on them. I think once the orcs scattered the men surrendered LOTR shows that orcs generally can’t function in a coordinated fashion even WITH a dark lord imposing his will on them. The most remarkable propensity of orcs as a race is their near-human willingness to slaughter each other over the smallest godamn thing.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:31
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skasion posted:LOTR shows that orcs generally can’t function in a coordinated fashion even WITH a dark lord imposing his will on them. The most remarkable propensity of orcs as a race is their near-human willingness to slaughter each other over the smallest godamn thing. that's unfair; even the noldor proved willing to butcher each other over a few shiny jewels. iluvatar made some mean critters
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Apr 29, 2019 23:33
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:that's unfair; even the noldor proved willing to butcher each other over a few shiny jewels. iluvatar made some mean critters Well yeah, I guess it’s harsh to expect too much civility of the work of an ineffable void entity
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Apr 29, 2019 23:34
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:that's unfair; even the noldor proved willing to butcher each other over a few shiny jewels. iluvatar made some mean critters
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Apr 29, 2019 23:35
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Nessus posted:The Noldor at least required jewels of light imperishable to do it over. The orcs did it over fancy chain mail! That mithril shirt was worth more than the entire Shire just by itself.
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Apr 30, 2019 01:51
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:That mithril shirt was worth more than the entire Shire just by itself.
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Apr 30, 2019 01:58
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skasion posted:Here’s the bit I was thinking of. The thing is Sauron can detect when the ring is being worn, though maybe someone of great strength like Gandalf or Aragorn could conceal themselves somewhat from his gaze. When Frodo is running from the Fellowship and has the Ring on Sauron nearly detects him. So he should be suspicious of Aragorn/Gandalf etc after they start marching on him and he should realize that hey maybe it's a little weird that I haven't sensed someone wearing my ring. But he doesn't think it through like that because as Gandalf says the thought never enters his darkest dreams that the West would dare to try to destroy the Ring. He weighs the possibilities according to what he would do himself. Also Sam wears the Ring just before entering Mordor and Sauron doesn't detect him so maybe he can only detect someone when they've been wearing it for a while and are properly in the open and/or afraid like Frodo was. Though Sam does think to himself before entering Mordor that he'd better take the Ring off there before entering because he reasons (correctly probably) that Sauron would instantly detect anyone wearing it in his domain.
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Apr 30, 2019 04:47
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The amount of "signal" the ring puts off seems to kind of vary. While you can critique Sam's perspective to some extent, he very clearly is using the Ring to facilitate completing a solemn mission rather than, you know, challenge the foundations of the world, and even he has a brief vision of "what if you like, made MORDOR a giant garden?"
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Apr 30, 2019 10:09
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Ginette Reno posted:The thing is Sauron can detect when the ring is being worn I think this is a very subtle mistake that a lot of people make, not helped in the slightest by the ADHD Spotlight of Sauron portrayed by the movies. The way I read it, it's not that Sauron can detect when the ring is merely being worn, it has to be used to exercise some kind of power; and the more power you're trying to exercise, the easier it is to find you. If you just want to be invisible, which is something the Ring seems to be able to do for the Bearer just as an inherent property, that seems to be very different to putting the Ring on and consciously attempting to do something with it. Consider the events atop Amon Hen. When Frodo is nearly found by Sauron, he is both wearing the Ring and exercising the Seat of Seeing's power of far sight at the time. There's no indication that Sauron is aware of the location of the Ring until Frodo draws Sauron's attention to himself, and it seems clear that Frodo's own will is briefly overcome by the Ring attempting to betray him and get back to its master: quote:Thither, eastward, unwilling his eye was drawn. It passed the ruined bridges of Osgiliath, the grinning gates of Minas Morgul, and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the Land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him. He then takes the Ring off just in time to avoid his precise location becoming known to Sauron's will, and just in time to get away before the orc-band arrives. He comes down from the Seat, knows what he has to do, and puts the Ring back on again, but this time with the sole intent to get back to the boats without his friends finding out, and he gets clean away without Sauron obtaining any positive knowledge as to where the Ring is going, or even who exactly has it, despite Sauron almost finding out its exact location a few moments ago. As for Sam's supposition, which is seemingly contradicted by his entering Mordor while wearing the Ring, consider what happens immediately before Sam says "he'd spot me quick". quote:As Sam stood there, even though the Ring was not on him but hanging by its chain about his neck, he felt himself enlarged, as if he were robed in a huge distorted shadow of himself, a vast and ominous threat halted upon the walls of Mordor. He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows. Already the Ring tempted him, gnawing at his will and reason. And then Sam reasons to himself that he'd be spotted quick if he put on the Ring in Mordor. Well, yes, but that's because he now thinks that if he puts the Ring on, he would definitely and inevitably be compelled to claim it for his own and use its power to issue a direct challenge to Sauron. The point is, he can't use it any more only for its inherent powers; he would have to claim mastery over it, and it's specifically that act which would draw Sauron's attention, as in fact it does when Frodo tries it at Sammath Naur.
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Apr 30, 2019 10:28
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Yeah I always thought it was that Amon Hen was a two way thing. It was like a Palantir in landscape form. The movies def confuse the issue.
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Apr 30, 2019 12:46
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The gently caress is the deal with Amon Hen anyway. If the Numenoreans could make a magical chair on a hill that lets you see all that, what did they even need palantiri for.
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Apr 30, 2019 13:19
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Portability? I mean why do you have a mobile phone, since we can build magical devices that allow our voices to transmit over hundreds and thousands of miles?
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Apr 30, 2019 13:22
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skasion posted:The gently caress is the deal with Amon Hen anyway. If the Numenoreans could make a magical chair on a hill that lets you see all that, what did they even need palantiri for. I think Amon Hen is just a tall mountain with a good view and Frodo sees particularly far there because he's wearing the Ring.
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Apr 30, 2019 13:22
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Yeah, I always kinda got the feeling that the two hills being deemed good for Seeing and Hearing respectively wasn't because they were necessarily magical or anything, they just seemed that way.
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Apr 30, 2019 13:30
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Amon Hen was def magical. There is no reference to Frodo using the Ring at all or doing anything but being a passive observer once he sat on the chair. Up he went and sat upon the ancient chair, feeling like a lost child that had clambered upon the throne of mountain-kings. At first he could see little. He seemed to be in a world of mist in which there were only shadows: the Ring was upon him. Then here and there the mist gave way and he saw many visions: small and clear as if they were under his eyes upon a table, and yet remote. There was no sound, only bright living images. The world seemed to have shrunk and fallen silent. He was sitting upon the Seat of Seeing, on Amon Hen, the Hill of the Eye of the Men of Númenor.
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Apr 30, 2019 13:39
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I was originally typing an "and wait a minute, is Amon Hen really actually magical, or is it just really high up?" argument and then ditched it; the clincher for me is that Aragorn seems to be expecting to have unnaturally far sight right at the start of book 3, and the first time he mentions it he wants to "stand in that high place again", but...quote:Aragorn hesitated. He desired to go to the high seat himself, hoping to see there something that would guide him in his perplexities; but time was pressing. Suddenly he leaped forward, and ran to the summit, across the great flag-stones, and up the steps. Then sitting in the high seat he looked out. But the sun seemed darkened, and the world dim and remote. He turned from the North back again to North, and saw nothing save the distant hills, unless it were that far away he could see again a great bird like an eagle high in the air, descending slowly in wide circles down towards the earth. I wouldn't be surprised if the effect you get from it is proportionate to your own ability/amplified by any other powerful object you just so happen to have about your person, or just really tetchy and badly understood even by lore-masters. Aragorn's at pretty much his lowest point here, and the seat gives him feck-all; and then by the start of the next book he's doing well enough to best Sauron in a battle of wills with the Orthanc stone.
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Apr 30, 2019 14:01
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Trin Tragula posted:I think this is a very subtle mistake that a lot of people make, not helped in the slightest by the ADHD Spotlight of Sauron portrayed by the movies. The way I read it, it's not that Sauron can detect when the ring is merely being worn, it has to be used to exercise some kind of power; and the more power you're trying to exercise, the easier it is to find you. If you just want to be invisible, which is something the Ring seems to be able to do for the Bearer just as an inherent property, that seems to be very different to putting the Ring on and consciously attempting to do something with it. These are good points, but you would think any ring bearer that takes the ring and intends to challenge Sauron with it would be claiming it in the way Frodo did. Doing so would presumably draw Sauron's gaze. But since neither Gandalf nor Aragorn has the ring that day obviously doesn't come. Shouldn't Sauron be suspicious of that? Although both Frodo and Sam seem to think that the ring needs to be claimed in Mordor itself to challenge Sauron so maybe there is something to their belief and Sauron reasons that whichever Western captain has the ring intends to make the same challenge.
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Apr 30, 2019 15:15
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That's a good post, and I think your reasoning is sound.
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Apr 30, 2019 16:41
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I think most tellingly the magic of Amon hen dissolved Frodo’s wraith world view and gives him power of sight unrelated to th ring. Maybe it was powered by the Ring or maybe Ulmo did it who knows. —- Thinking about it it was probably powered by Gandalf to help frodo see what to do. euphronius fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 17:34
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quote:Although both Frodo and Sam seem to think that the ring needs to be claimed in Mordor itself to challenge Sauron That's not how I'm reading it. We're shown that bearing the Ring becomes more and more of a burden as Frodo approaches Mordor, and then as they cross to Orodruin; that when Sam first takes it and hangs it round his neck, he almost can't stand under the psychological weight of it; and that its inherent powers greatly increase when it's close to Orodruin and Sauron: quote:[Sam] listened. The Orcs from the tunnel and the others marching down had sighted one another, and both parties were now hurrying and shouting. He heard them both clearly, and he understood what they said. Perhaps the Ring gave understanding of tongues, or simply understanding, especially of the servants of Sauron its maker, so that if he gave heed, he understood and translated the thought to himself. Certainly the Ring had grown greatly in power as it approached the places of its forging; but one thing it did not confer, and that was courage. But "the ring must be claimed in Mordor" is not quite what Sam thinks as he's standing outside Cirith Ungol. quote:He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring, though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge the Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows. He's feeling the same temptation that Frodo always has, to put on the ring and claim it for himself, but it's now so strong that he feels that if he puts the Ring on again, even with the best of motives, he will inevitably end up challenging Sauron's mastery of it. That's not to say that the challenge would have to be issued inside Mordor itself for Sauron to notice it (remember how Gandalf quickly quiets Pippin in Rivendell when he yells out "Hail Frodo, Lord of the Ring"), just that the temptation to make such a challenge while wearing the Ring increases the closer you get to the Ring's master, until it finally becomes irresistible. This I think is why Sauron is unconcerned by no direct challenge having been made yet. Aragorn is the most likely candidate to be wielding the Ring, and if he has enough willpower to defeat Sauron with the palantir, he can probably conceal who is holding the Ring, even though he may or may not be actually wearing it at the moment. Clearly therefore it is Aragorn's own Ring-induced vainglory which is causing him to lead such a contemptible little army of less than six thousands up to the Black Gate, and to have his heralds announce him as the King Elessar along the way. And if Sauron's own forces should somehow fail to defeat Aragorn within five minutes, as logic would suggest, then Sauron need only fall back, wait for the Ringbearer to approach the Barad-dur, and he will eventually succumb to temptation and reveal himself. EVERYTHING IS FINE AND IT TOTALLY DOESN'T MATTER THAT I JUST TRIPPED OVER MY OWN SHADOWY DICK, AGAIN. (As, ironically, the Ringbearer in fact does. Just not in the way Sauron is expecting.) Trin Tragula fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 19:02
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cheetah7071 posted:Orcs and the other assorted monsters in his army cannot function in a coordinated fashion without a dark lord imposing his will on them. I think once the orcs scattered the men surrendered Yeah, if we deliberately ignore every scene where we see orcs interacting with one another. They're as incapable of functioning at the Rohirrim are with a sleepy king, and the men of Gondor are when Denethor has a panic attack.
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Apr 30, 2019 22:54
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Are these brigands drinking in the reek in a thatched barn while their brats roll on the floor among the dogs even sentient?
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Apr 30, 2019 23:00
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I remember being confused over whether the brigands were “drinking in” the reek, like breathing it in, or whether they were drinking (mead and beer and such) in a reeking hall
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Apr 30, 2019 23:26
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I meant "independently sentient" in a more metaphysical way. Like they have some degree of independence but mostly execute the will of their respective dark lords, and are lost when that is lost. This is mostly buoyed by the essays in Morgoth's Ring saying that little bits of Morgoth's will are diffused across Arda I'm not gonna really try to argue in favor of it at length (the point of my previous post was just that it's plausible not that it's necessarily true, especially in light of how many contradictory origins exist for orcs at various stages of composition). I will agree that when confined to the text of LotR the argument would be an extreme stretch
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Apr 30, 2019 23:33
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Its not plausible given that Sam listens to two orcs talk about their hopes and dreams of going off to start a little bandit operation of their own out in the wilds somewhere. It's someone taking a metaphor as literal and then ignoring as much of the text as necessary to make their wild misreading work. Orcs are very much sentient, as are the Men who are similarly roused into (and out of) action by grand proclamations of heroes and villains alike.
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May 1, 2019 00:02
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quote:The Captains bowed their heads; and when they looked up again, behold! their enemies were flying and the power of Mordor was scattering like dust in the wind. As when death smites the swollen brooding thing that inhabits their crawling hill and holds them all in sway, ants will wander witless and purposeless and then feebly die, so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope. You'll forgive me for thinking it's plausible from this that their intelligence is exterior even if they're capable of exercising it in ways not intended by their master, especially given the stuff in Morgoth's Ring about Morgoth's will suffusing Arda This all being metaphorical is a plausible reading, but I maintain that it's still a plausible reading that they literally became "witless" "purposeless" and "mindless" when Sauron was destroyed, especially given that it's definitely non-metaphorically true that they posed absolutely no threat to the otherwise defeated army of the west from that moment onwards
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May 1, 2019 00:16
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Orcs being puppets of the lingering will of Morgoth would resolve the paradox of their creation and apparent evil nature. Melkor never possessed the Flame Imperishable, so he could not endow anything with independent life; he could, however, suffuse things with his will and power. Orcs would be like the Dwarves at the moment of their initial awakening, before they were revealed to Eru, so there's precedent. Deepens the similarities between Melkor and Aulë. Explains why they hang out in the most cursed places they can find, too. Heck of a bombshell thematically for them to be a mockery of true creation, but I can't think of anything in the text that contradicts it. Bongo Bill fucked around with this message at 00:34 on May 1, 2019 |
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May 1, 2019 00:31
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gets a little weirder when you consider how the banter and relationships between the orcs we see (in Two Towers especially) seem to be drawn pretty directly from the language and experiences of Tolkien's stint in the british imperial infantry
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May 1, 2019 00:37
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Bongo Bill posted:Orcs being puppets of the lingering will of Morgoth would resolve the paradox of their creation and apparent evil nature. Melkor never possessed the Flame Imperishable, so he could not endow anything with independent life; he could, however, suffuse things with his will and power. Orcs would be like the Dwarves at the moment of their initial awakening, before they were revealed to Eru, so there's precedent. Deepens the similarities between Melkor and Aulë. Explains why they hang out in the most cursed places they can find, too. Melkor, not Sauron, though. So how is Sauron's sudden existence failure supposed to cut the strings of Melkor's puppet creation? It's just Elvish propaganda. "Our enemies have no will or souls of their own!"
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May 1, 2019 07:03
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Runcible Cat posted:Melkor, not Sauron, though. So how is Sauron's sudden existence failure supposed to cut the strings of Melkor's puppet creation? Personally, I'm definitely partial to the "Elvish propaganda" hypothesis, because I'm racist against Elves, but this line of thinking intrigues me and I want to see it through. Sauron was Melkor's top lieutenant and even, in some ways, at some times, exceeded his master's audacity. Melkor's essence is inextricable from Arda; that's why they call it Arda Marred. The main part of Melkor may be chilling in Mandos until the end of time, but much of his essence lingers. Much like Sauron put much of his power into the One Ring, the landmasses that once constituted Morgoth's Ring still have most of Morgoth in 'em, and some of it is specifically in the form of Orcs. What I'm proposing is that when Sauron took over as the Dark Lord, the way he gained his power over the Orcs is by using that remnant of Morgoth's power - reanimating it, in a sense. Just as a Man or an Elf might put on the One Ring and draw on powers originating from Sauron, Sauron himself "put on" Morgoth's Ring and drew on powers originating from Melkor, including the obedience of the Orcs. And when Sauron was broken by the destruction of the One Ring, there was no longer any single intelligence guiding that power.
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May 1, 2019 07:25
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cheetah7071 posted:You'll forgive me for thinking it's plausible from this that their intelligence is exterior even if they're capable of exercising it in ways not intended by their master, especially given the stuff in Morgoth's Ring about Morgoth's will suffusing Arda The key word in that paragraph is "enslaved". Are slaves not sentient beings? Are they naturally mindless creatures requiring mastery to function?
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May 1, 2019 11:26
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Well, the Silmarillion establishes that Orcs are derived from Elves, and not necessarily created wholesale like when the dwarves were made. So shouldn’t Orcs have some will of their own due to that? On the other hands that also means that they’ve been dominated by dark powers their entire lives and don’t know what to do when that dark power vanishes. So its more like they just don’t know any better...and no one from Gondor would give them a chance, even if they were willing to reach out which I doubt they will.
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May 1, 2019 16:07
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Whoa there, the Silmarillion establishes that at least some of the Noldor believed that orcs are derived from elves. It does not establish at all that that is true.
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May 1, 2019 16:13
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Yeah, orcs have the same problem in Tolkien that fallen angels have in Christianity and for the same reasons -- they're unredeemable? really?
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May 1, 2019 16:13
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skasion posted:Whoa there, the Silmarillion establishes that at least some of the Noldor believed that orcs are derived from elves. It does not establish at all that that is true. That is correct. The truth is no one knows about orcs including Tolkien.
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May 1, 2019 16:15
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Tolkien went through several iterations of orc origin, right? Corrupted elves, corrupted humans, something else entirely, and eventually settled on "I don't know smdh"
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May 1, 2019 16:57
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