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Namtab posted:Being big open Christian leader is kinda setting yourself up for questions like this which is why big tone mostly didn't mention it Maybe he's trying to specifically target the untapped Christian demographic? *sad trombone*
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May 21, 2017 18:44
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Namtab posted:I don't think always having voted Labour is a good thing if Labour aren't offering policies you agree with. If flaps is voting Labour all the time because he always agrees with their policies then it's fine, it its because he just wants the red team to win regardless then it's less ok. One big problem with politics in general is people voting for their team rather than for what they believe in. The awful FPTP system often makes it actively detrimental to vote for what you believe in
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May 21, 2017 18:45
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Namtab posted:If I were big Christian lad Tim I could think a couple of ways to get around stuff like that from just saying "no I don't think it's wrong *fingers crossed behind my back*" to "I believe it's the woman's choice" to "I don't personally like it but if you look at my record I've voted for progressive policies because I don't let my religion get in the way (i would have made the good votes)" It's hard to do that last one because he has never voted for a positive abortion law, only ones that restrict access.
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May 21, 2017 18:56
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Oberleutnant posted:*sad trombone* That's more than the number of people predicted to vote Lib Dem
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May 21, 2017 19:01
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Pissflaps posted:I'm voting labour but despite Corbyn, not because of him. who did you rape? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 21, 2017 19:09
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Oberleutnant posted:Maybe he's trying to specifically target the untapped Christian demographic? Plus side their stock portfolio is performing above market expectations which I'm sure will mean an end to poverty.
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May 21, 2017 20:00
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Namtab posted:If I were big Christian lad Tim I could think a couple of ways to get around stuff like that from just saying "no I don't think it's wrong *fingers crossed behind my back*" to "I believe it's the woman's choice" to "I don't personally like it but if you look at my record I've voted for progressive policies because I don't let my religion get in the way (i would have made the good votes)" His actual voting record on abortion law implies that he may have different definition of 'access under law' to many people though.
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May 21, 2017 20:04
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I'm glad he doesn't lie about his beliefs. I think it's better for everyone that way (for the voting public, and the integrity of politics (lol)). As long as he recognises that his personal beliefs are out of step with public opinion at large, and doesn't make them the basis of party policy, then I am relatively relaxed. Lots of politicians agree to follow a party line at the expense of their personally held belief; I'm not sure it's the hot potato people are making it, although it is funny because it's Tim Farron of course.
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May 21, 2017 20:36
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Prince John posted:I'm glad he doesn't lie about his beliefs. I think it's better for everyone that way (for the voting public, and the integrity of politics (lol)). I think it's iffy as hell that the Liberal Democrat Party feel comfortable electing someone who feels unable to just say that "abortion isn't something I would personally do but I will always support a womans right to choose", but I do think that broadly speaking, if he does keep his appalling personal views away from party policy it's not a huge issue. It's still dodgy, and I'll make something out of it because I think the Lib Dems are worthless bunch of cowards & shitheads who'd sooner go into government with the Tories than have a single principle that can't be sold off for tuppence.
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May 21, 2017 20:59
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Has he ever voted for more abortion rights though?
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May 21, 2017 21:04
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Miftan posted:Has he ever voted for more abortion rights though? No, he's voted twice for restrictions and abstained on all other votes.
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May 21, 2017 21:11
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Pissflaps posted:He may seem like a 'nice fella' but in my opinion he has presided over a dramatic downturn in labour's fortunes and the sooner he is replaced the better. This election will see labour drifting further and further away from a position of being able to form a government. Glad to see after years of tortured handwringing you've finally come round to the UKMT view and decided to vote Labour 
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May 21, 2017 21:12
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Fans posted:No, he's voted twice for restrictions and abstained on all other votes. Yep. Very simple rule to follow: never believe anything a politician says - look at their actions.
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May 21, 2017 21:14
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baka kaba posted:Glad to see after years of tortured handwringing you've finally come round to the UKMT view and decided to vote Labour Voting labour will be a new experience for many in this thread - should they actually end up doing so, of course.
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May 21, 2017 21:14
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Fans posted:It's hard to do that last one because he has never voted for a positive abortion law, only ones that restrict access. That's why I would make the good votes
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May 21, 2017 21:16
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I mean I haven't done it in a GE but, like, does someone pop out of the polling booth and give you a quick wank if you vote Labour? Cos otherwise I'm not anticipating it being a new experience.
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May 21, 2017 21:17
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baka kaba posted:Glad to see after years of tortured handwringing you've finally come round to the UKMT view and decided to vote Labour Speak for yourself, I'm voting for my independent candidate. I flat out don't like the labour candidate in our area and she deserves to lose her seat.
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May 21, 2017 21:19
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ6FrZaE3B8 Ok this kid's great.
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May 21, 2017 21:21
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Pissflaps posted:Voting labour will be a new experience for many in this thread - should they actually end up doing so, of course. some of us live in the countryside where it's generally always been a tory / lib dem toss up
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May 21, 2017 21:24
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I'll vote whichever way is the best to keep the tories out
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May 21, 2017 21:24
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JFairfax posted:I'll vote whichever way is the best to keep the tories out Aye. Lib Dem or Labour as best to keep Tories out. Although after 2010 it's Labour or protest vote given the Lib Dems are just tories with smiley faces painted over their death mask.
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May 21, 2017 21:27
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OwlFancier posted:I mean I haven't done it in a GE but, like, does someone pop out of the polling booth and give you a quick wank if you vote Labour?
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May 21, 2017 21:30
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It's almost like there's something noticeably different about Labour/its manifesto this time, compared to previous general elections in which most people in this thread were old enough to vote, meaning we don't need to vote for other parties to have at least some showing for socialism on the overall vote share* *Option may only have been available to those in non-Tory safe seats
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May 21, 2017 21:32
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Bobstar posted:It's almost like there's something noticeably different about Labour/its manifesto this time, compared to previous general elections in which most people in this thread were old enough to vote, meaning we don't need to vote for other parties to have at least some showing for socialism on the overall vote share* Dan Berman has another good post on this (http://restlessrealist.webflow.io//posts/closing-the-gap-the-uk-elections-14-days-out): quote:Before dealing with the latter issue it is worth noting that for all the criticism aimed at Labour’s leader, and given the disabilities his team have operated under – a shadow cabinet denuded of almost all talent and of doubtful loyalty, limited message control over MPs, a hostile relationship with traditional Labour media spin doctors, not to mention the nationalist environment created by Brexit – Corbyn is running a fairly decent campaign. Early on his team seem to have concluded that as they trailed by 20 points or more, victory was not seriously on the table, and this in turn freed them to run a vote maximization campaign aimed at the leadership election which was sure to follow June 8th. This could be achieved by being able to win a higher percentage of the vote than Ed Miliband(31.2%) which would allow them to claim that at the least their internal party foes would not have done much better, and could be blamed for the party doing worse than it otherwise would have done. While likely motivated by self-interested and factional concerns, the ironic result has been to provide the party with a much more coherent message than it has possessed in years. Constrained by the need to appeal to marginal seats in middle England and deluded by polling showing the Tories far short of a majority, the 2015 Labour campaign was an exercise in risk avoidance. Labour messaging was to stress a series of things a Labour government would not do – increase immigration, raise taxes, work with the SNP – rather than any sort of positive image. Ironically this had the opposite effect. By spending so much time denying that he intended to work with the SNP, Miliband assisted Tory efforts to suggest he would do exactly that, while at the same time the decision to stress continuity in economic matters right down to keeping George Osborne’s fiscal targets meant that there was no real debate to be had on the economy. Bored, the media and voters understandably focused on personalities and emotional concerns. He then goes on and does his usual thing of assuming that everyone is playing 4th dimensional chess rather than just clumsily fumbling their way forwards but it's fairly good analysis.
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May 21, 2017 21:36
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What does he mean about Labour's promises being uncosted? They are.
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May 21, 2017 21:43
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I live in a SNP/nobody marginal. So despite the Labour candidate here being...not exactly to my tastes, I'll probably end up voting for him anyway, Labour needs every vote it can get, especially in Scotland. Away from the election, a story on cleaners on strike at LSE, & how they get treated That loving patronising lecture from Jeremy Irons.
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May 21, 2017 21:47
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Irony Be My Shield posted:What does he mean about Labour's promises being uncosted? They are. The ones that are costed are costed. The ones that aren't (ie. all the nationalisation programmes etc) are not. That's being generous and not diving into the fact that a lot of the costings looks suspiciously like someone googled 'how much would x cost?' e: personally I don't like the trend of pseudo-hypothecating revenue raising in order to justify spending, Parties should just be expected to have an idea of how much their policies cost, what kind of extra revenue they expect to raise, and then after that all bets are off because in a 4-5 year Parliament any government needs freedom to manoeuvre on taxation and spending. Just pretending your enormously expensive policies don't have any cost is not on though. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 21:56 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 21:50
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Alchenar posted:Dan Berman has another good post on this (http://restlessrealist.webflow.io//posts/closing-the-gap-the-uk-elections-14-days-out): Corbyn has always been a good campaigner. That was clear from the second leadership campaign (and maybe the first one but the enthusiasm for Corbyn almost seemed to happen on its own the first time). The Tory campaign has been surprisingly bad in my view. Some of it is because they are certain of winning and want to get some horrible stuff in the manifesto to make it easier to get it through Parliament later, but they seem to be making it as painful as possible for themselves.
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May 21, 2017 21:53
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Alchenar posted:The ones that are costed are costed. The ones that aren't (ie. all the nationalisation programmes etc) are not.
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May 21, 2017 21:55
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Alchenar posted:all the nationalisation programmes etc) are not. Yes they are. E: See above.
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May 21, 2017 21:56
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forkboy84 posted:I think it's iffy as hell that the Liberal Democrat Party feel comfortable electing someone who feels unable to just say that "abortion isn't something I would personally do but I will always support a womans right to choose" As a man he shouldn't ever be saying abortion isn't 'something he would personally do' though.
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May 21, 2017 22:00
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Nationalisations are one-off investments into profitable companies rather than ongoing costs. In some cases they're not even that depending on the contracts. Yes but I don't think that changes the fact that they're uncosted? I guess a costing might say "it will cost £x billion which we expect to make back in y years and then it's profit all the way".. Not that the Tories have costed anything at all as far as I can see. All the costing is dodgy though, nobody can really tell what tax revenue can be in 4 years and a lot of spending, eg welfare, can't be accurately predicted either. What it really is is a statement of principles, eg we'll raise our extra money from taxing people earning more than 80k and reversing cuts to Corporation Tax. They can't really know that the corporation tax change will bring in £19.6bn in 2021-22, it's just to reassure people they have some.sort of plan
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May 21, 2017 22:03
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jabby posted:As a man he shouldn't ever be saying abortion isn't 'something he would personally do' though. Well, not unless he's medically qualified.
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May 21, 2017 22:04
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jabby posted:As a man he shouldn't ever be saying abortion isn't 'something he would personally do' though. Fair point. I worded that extremely poorly. But "something I'm not comfortable worth personally" or words to that effect. There are people who are "pro-life" (& whoever got that to become the standard term for anti-abortion should win an award for marketing) and yet still respect a womans right to choose. You just word it better than I did because you're a politician with a staff who can speak better than me. But he won't even do that. That's the worry.
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May 21, 2017 22:04
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Yeah it's obviously not going to be exactly right, you can't know until you actually come to do the budget. But rough calculations at least lets you know that it is possible, as long as there is the political will to raise taxes on the rich slightly.
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May 21, 2017 22:07
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Paxman posted:Yes but I don't think that changes the fact that they're uncosted? McDonnell's answer on the question is 'Parliament will decide a fair price'. Which is a bit concerning given in the hypothetical Parliament will be controlled by Labour and he will be the Labour Chancellor, so he will be setting the price.
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May 21, 2017 22:08
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I actually respect the position of 'I don't agree with abortion morally but I think women have the right to choose'. Unfortunately for Farron his voting record on abortion does not suggest he actually holds that view.
Irony Be My Shield fucked around with this message at 22:21 on May 21, 2017 |
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May 21, 2017 22:13
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it's ridiculous that the lib dems have elected a religious conservative to lead their party
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May 21, 2017 22:18
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Can someone explain why Britain is in such a unique place that it can't possibly afford to have a corporation tax in line with the rest of the developed world? Britain has a ridiculously low corporation tax, yet every time I see it mentioned people act as if the Labour tax increase is going to cause terminal meltdown.
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May 21, 2017 22:18
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forkboy84 posted:Fair point. I worded that extremely poorly. But "something I'm not comfortable worth personally" or words to that effect. There are people who are "pro-life" (& whoever got that to become the standard term for anti-abortion should win an award for marketing) and yet still respect a womans right to choose. You just word it better than I did because you're a politician with a staff who can speak better than me. He could say something along the lines of 'as a man I'll never be in the position to make that decision, so my personal view is irrelevant. But I believe in a woman's right to choose, and that abortion should be safe and legal'.
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May 21, 2017 22:19
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