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BobTheJanitor posted:A prophecy that one character is going to kill another can be an interesting story if it's done well. Even going back to ancient myths like Oedipus, both his parents and himself tried everything to avoid the prophecy that he'd kill dad and marry mom, and in the end that's exactly what caused it to happen. But when the plot's devolved into authorial railroading, it's hard to have any confidence that this will end up being anything more than Kat acting completely out of character or idiotically misunderstanding something obvious and murdering Zimmy because the plot said so. We've already had the explicit information that whatever Kat does to kill Zim is going to involve Omega. But instead of even having a scene where she considers that and mulls over how to avoid it, we just get 'despite the warning, Kat kept doing Omega stuff'. And now she's ready to get a connection to Omega implanted directly, which will surely not lead to any bad consequences. Maybe it's arrogance because she already defied Fate once by saving Annie and sees no reason why she can't just pull that off again this time.
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Feb 6, 2023 20:08
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christmas boots posted:Maybe it's arrogance because she already defied Fate once by saving Annie and sees no reason why she can't just pull that off again this time. If so, I’d sure love for the character to express that in any way in a timely manner!
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Feb 7, 2023 07:16
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christmas boots posted:Maybe it's arrogance because she already defied Fate once by saving Annie and sees no reason why she can't just pull that off again this time. I don't think it's accurate to say she defied Fate. Fate, which is to say the Norns, voluntarily participated in and enabled her time meddling. Maybe she assumes she'll always have access to retry whatever she screws up.
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Feb 7, 2023 15:33
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Nuns with Guns posted:I like Osomatsu-san, too, Kat. Let's make the comic about that instead. I have way more personal investment there than in anything else right now. What does Kat being a Karamatsu girl say about society as a whole? Come to my three hour TED talk to find out! I took a break from Gunnerkrigg Court because I wasn't enjoying it then randomly came back on a whim today. Read the current chapter with zero context and I think that makes it better. Kat is about to do some mad science that leads to robo zombies, cool! That's a cool idea and I'm excited to see it play out. I don't need to know the road that got us here (especially since from what y'all are saying it seems to involve a lot of Loup whom I feel nothing for) I'm just going to enjoy the mad science and robo zombie ride for as long as it lasts. Go too far Kat, do it! Go WAY too far and too over the top! It's the Karamatsu way (which is the same as the wrong way, but flashier and with tighter pants)!
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Feb 7, 2023 18:40
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Space Cadet Omoly posted:What does Kat being a Karamatsu girl say about society as a whole? Come to my three hour TED talk to find out! You are absolutely doing it right, yeah. Nothing of value has been lost. I am also excited about where this is going!
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Feb 8, 2023 03:42
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The timing of the thread title change was perfect, wasn't it?
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Feb 8, 2023 03:53
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has kat always been a huge dipshit? also since when has annie shown herself to be excellent with a scalpel????
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Feb 8, 2023 09:54
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not one time unless we count her loving fire laser that she forgot she has
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Feb 8, 2023 09:59
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No see her dad was a surgeon, which is a genetic trait. It's why I'm really good at tiling, painting and woodwork and not actually a cack handed imbecile.
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Feb 8, 2023 10:45
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A big flaming stink posted:has kat always been a huge dipshit? also since when has annie shown herself to be excellent with a scalpel????
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Feb 8, 2023 11:33
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It was, in fact, mentioned in the chapter where Forest!Annie comes back. Court!Annie mentions she helped with the surgery to reattach her father's hand, and he compliments her on it. Kat would've been spectating/involved with that surgery, herself. https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2075 I still don't think I'd be so gung-ho about someone who "helped" in one (1) surgery putting a scalpel up against my spine, but Kat is being very blasé about this whole thing. In a good story with good writing I'd take that as projecting false confidence to try and settle her own nerves.
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Feb 8, 2023 12:02
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Ah! Genuinely happy it wasn't completely out of nowhere, even if it's a bit of a stretch. Hopefully the next page is Annie saying just that.
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Feb 8, 2023 13:09
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It's just a small slice in the spine. She would do it herself if that didn't feel so awkward. Also Paz doesn't get any lines. Her voice actor is demanding union rates now.
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Feb 8, 2023 13:31
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cant cook creole bream posted:It's just a small slice in the spine. She would do it herself if that didn't feel so awkward.
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Feb 8, 2023 14:11
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Man, that page just pisses me off all over again. Given that this was during the stage where we weren't 100% sure what the deal is with the two Annies, this could have made sense as a cuckoo's-egg kind of deal (given that look that Court Annie shot in the second to last panel), but it turns out that no, Annie and her dad just had a touching, months-long reconciliation offscreen! Anthony worked through so many of his issues in a caring and eccentric environment with family and friends! Offscreen! The surgery, which could have been a capstone moment to their relationship, with Anthony finally willing to show some vulnerability in front of his child while she gets to feel some real connection with him -- furthermore, in a way that could evoke/mirror that crucial earlier scene with the gi as a beautiful expression of character growth in a visual medium!!! And it happened!!! Off!!! Screen!!!!!
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Feb 8, 2023 15:00
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It makes me wish all over again that we had a chapter (or hell, even a one-pager) after the combination that focused solely on all of the memories Annie^2 gained. They became separate enough characters that it feels more like we lost one of them entirely.
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Feb 8, 2023 15:35
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usenet celeb 1992 posted:Man, that page just pisses me off all over again. Given that this was during the stage where we weren't 100% sure what the deal is with the two Annies, this could have made sense as a cuckoo's-egg kind of deal (given that look that Court Annie shot in the second to last panel), but it turns out that no, Annie and her dad just had a touching, months-long reconciliation offscreen! To be fair, this didn't happen like that despite the praise he gave her here. He was still as awkward as ever with Court Annie and the two couldn't reconcile despite the months together. Tom just wrote the scene like this to make the reader think that everything was good between them. But later Court Annie complains to Forest Annie and says that nothing really changed between her and Tony. Tom likes to mislead for pointless drama I guess. Though I'm not sure why Forest Annie was ultimately the one that Tom was able to finally talk to. The page seems to indicate he was able to relate with the absurdity of her situation or something? Since apparently being stuck with himself would be his own nightmare. Though that should also apply to Court Annie so I don't know. But yeah, no off screen reconciliation. At least not until Zimmy randomly decides to kill the two Annies I guess. Though that was less a reconcilation and more lets just drop this plot and let Annie say everything is perfectly fine forever now or something. JuniperCake fucked around with this message at 16:01 on Feb 8, 2023 |
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Feb 8, 2023 15:48
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Cavatica posted:It makes me wish all over again that we had a chapter (or hell, even a one-pager) after the combination that focused solely on all of the memories Annie^2 gained. They became separate enough characters that it feels more like we lost one of them entirely. Both were lost, as individuals. Like Loup but without the dramatics. Could have been interesting parallels/contrasts to draw there! And thanks for the reminder, JuniperCake. There was still a lot that happened offscreen but I'm having a hard enough time keeping all the contradictory on-screen stuff straight.
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Feb 8, 2023 16:33
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cant cook creole bream posted:It's just a small slice in the spine. She would do it herself if that didn't feel so awkward. I mean, to be fair stunned silence is a reasonable response to your girlfriend asking "hey could you cut open my spine a little and put a chip inside of it?" I feel like Kat's behavior isn't really out of character, she's come up with an insane idea she thinks is reasonable and now she's acting super casual about this potentially deadly science thing. Feels on brand for her.
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Feb 8, 2023 17:44
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"Being totally blase about extremely complicated and terrifying technology" is kind of Kat's whole thing, isn't it?
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Feb 8, 2023 19:29
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JuniperCake posted:Though I'm not sure why Forest Annie was ultimately the one that Tom was able to finally talk to. The page seems to indicate he was able to relate with the absurdity of her situation or something? Since apparently being stuck with himself would be his own nightmare. Though that should also apply to Court Annie so I don't know. He explains it (or tries to) on this page: https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2460
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Feb 8, 2023 20:33
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JuniperCake posted:
This was my guess when Forest Annie first came home, but nope! It's just cuz Tony sees C.Annie as his wife AND daughter (bleh), and F.Annie as ???? Space Cadet Omoly posted:I mean, to be fair stunned silence is a reasonable response to your girlfriend asking "hey could you cut open my spine a little and put a chip inside of it?" Yeah this is how I feel. I think Paz is trying to digest this/not freak out. She recently (?) flipped out on Annie over Kat, and Kat had those issues with the Tik Tok. I'd be really upset if I was Paz right now. And yeah, feels onbrand for Kat. But lately I feel like Kat's stresses and blase attitude haven't really been presented clearly. Like, she revived those ancient robots because of all the work she had to do, and ??? And it also just feels like Kat hasn't grown as a character.
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Feb 8, 2023 20:52
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catapede posted:This was my guess when Forest Annie first came home, but nope! It's just cuz Tony sees C.Annie as his wife AND daughter (bleh), and F.Annie as ???? We haven't seen vulnerability from Kat in a while either, like with the bird boy and with the baby pigeon (and Mort's departure, and when they saw why Jeanne was murdered). Those balanced out her wacky science shenanigans.
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Feb 8, 2023 23:03
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Sway Grunt posted:He explains it (or tries to) on this page: https://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2460 God I hate this page so much. Literally "I cannot stop seeing you as partially my dead wife. I will literally never be able to see you as solely your own individual no matter what". How absolutely loving cruel for Annie to have to deal with. And he doesn't even try to apologize to her by proxy, like a letter or telling someone "I wish I could apologize. Please tell her I am sorry.". Just "man i'm so sad and hosed up and a bad person  " to some third party.
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Feb 9, 2023 06:57
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Tiny Myers posted:God I hate this page so much. well, betcha you never been consumed by grief about a core person who's legacy lives in front of you but is not them
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Feb 9, 2023 07:17
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Grognan posted:well, betcha you never been consumed by grief about a core person who's legacy lives in front of you but is not them People who’s wife died in childbirth somehow manage to soldier on and not be terrible. It is a known phenomenon.
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Feb 9, 2023 07:33
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Grognan posted:well, betcha you never been consumed by grief about a core person who's legacy lives in front of you but is not them This is fair in respect to whether it's believable a character might act a certain way but IMO the problem isn't Tony or Annie's actions by themselves. They make sense given their characterization in comic. Tony is going through his own issues for various reasons and is in over his head and unable to cope. Annie is desperate for his approval and will forgive almost anything if it means she'll get the love of her only remaining family. Unfortunately that's not uncommon in cases of abuse, so it's a believable albeit very depressing outcome. The issue is the comic uses this abuse for cheap drama, then discards it when Tom is tired of the plot instead of coming to some kind of actual resolution that feels earned. He tries to end it by effectively saying okay everything is fine, it's all been settled off screen. Now that Annie's trauma is gone forever, we no longer need to talk about it. Abuse and Trauma effects people differently but its a serious subject that should be handled with just a bit more care than that. If Tom was going to be so careless, he shouldn't have made the abuse so grievous. Make it more on the side of just him being distant and neglectful then active harm and isolation. He'd still be a very poo poo dad but I think his redemption would be easier for a lot of folks to buy. Especially with so much of the "redemption" being offscreen. But he dialed things up and went for the dramatic option instead. And then he couldn't find a way to resolve it other than to arbitrarily declare the plot line was resolved and declare everything is now suddenly fine. Honestly, it would have been much better if he just skipped mindcage and just let the reader have their own opinion of Tony and Annie's relationship. The comic wouldn't lose anything of substance from omitting that chapter (which was mostly a rehash of things we already knew) anyways. Let there be ambiguity even if he never touches upon that storyline again. It's not ideal given how central that storyline has been to Annie's development in the comic but it's better than ending it so clumsily if nothing else.
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Feb 9, 2023 08:02
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I think the ultimate problem with Tony is that the comic was actually too good, artistically speaking. Because Tony is a masterclass in how to introduce an incredibly loathesome villain. The pump is primed with all his prior behaviour trickled in - his neglect and how it harms Annie - while Kat acts as an audience surrogate seething over the abuse. When he finally bursts onto the scene, it is horrific and incredibly effective. The public humiliation, extra sympathetic given most everyone in the audience has likely either witnessed a case of a loathesome unredeemable teacher abusing their power, or else has grown up with media using that common trope. IThe panels/art style devolving to be more childlike to reflect an emotional breakdown. Annie and the readers sudden isolation from the beloved cast who we care about and want to see again. The art shifting from lush colourscapes and intricate backgrouns to blank white walls. Annie commiting what is very clearly analogous to self-harm when she literally cuts a part of herself off to disconnect from her emotions. It's like he wanted to present a neglectful father who can be sympathised with once his reasons are explored buuut instead overshot into a portrayal of an emotionally abusive bastard who tears asunder even the art itself on his arrival, bringing with him a presentation of emotional abuse (as opposed to say, a stabbing ghost villain) so realistic it probably could do with trigger warnings. I imagine the audience had an unexpected level "holy poo poo this is SO hosed up and unforgivable" reaction to the text. Because you can't monologue and Kat liking him off-screen your way out of that hole, and the redemption arc provided didn't get close - it would have worked for the bad dad, but not a monstrous dad. So first the narrative scrambles to toss flashbacks at the readers and all the characters teaming up to talk about how sympathetic/needing to be understood/deep and troubled Poochie is, and then when that all seems to barely scratch the audience's perception, we're given an "actually he's fine this is fine" monologue and he's written out. Only there seems to a gaping hole where Tony conversations would make sense. It's basically a victim of the level of talent brought to the table at the time. Tony's introduction was too well-done, where a scene that used less impactful imagery would have softened the blow. Imagine one where the art style doesn't change to show her distress. One where she's less isolated and still keeps her friends by sneaking around and thus retains her agency and the cast while making him look weaker, in a YA novel style where the plucky heroine overcomes the rules. In my opinion, the comic dropped a nuke when it was meaning to lob a grenade.
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Feb 9, 2023 08:16
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coolusername posted:
Yeah, I think you nailed it. This is a great way to put it.
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Feb 9, 2023 08:33
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Which is wild, because Tony coming in and throwing Annie's entire life in disarray was incredible. And how quickly it awkwardly walked it all back--he just gives Reynardine back, he just, yeah no it's no big deal he's done nothing to change things but that's fine--it's, yeah. Clear that this incredible high point of the story being deeply upsetting and powerful was unintentional.
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Feb 9, 2023 10:54
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intro Tony just looks eerie in a way that matches the trippier forest and ether scenes. he’s rendered in significantly more detail than the rest of the cast or his surroundings
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Feb 9, 2023 16:13
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I think that was intentional. We keep hearing about Tony as this enigmatic figure and when he finally arrives he's almost this larger-than-life figure to Annie but then over the course of the next few chapters both she and we come to understand that he's actually not this all-knowing supervillain he's just a very fundamentally broken person on top of what was already a pretty crippling inability to connect with people. It's just another variation of children seeing their parents as these all-powerful beings and then coming to realize that they're just people no different than anyone else, and I think his initial eerieness ties into that.
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Feb 9, 2023 19:24
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Oxxidation posted:intro Tony just looks eerie in a way that matches the trippier forest and ether scenes. he’s rendered in significantly more detail than the rest of the cast or his surroundings Yep, every single creative decision for “this character is bursting in like a horror film’s jumpscare” and “Annie is traumatised and experiencing a mental breakdown” was nailed.
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Feb 9, 2023 19:48
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christmas boots posted:I think that was intentional. We keep hearing about Tony as this enigmatic figure and when he finally arrives he's almost this larger-than-life figure to Annie but then over the course of the next few chapters both she and we come to understand that he's actually not this all-knowing supervillain he's just a very fundamentally broken person on top of what was already a pretty crippling inability to connect with people. It's just another variation of children seeing their parents as these all-powerful beings and then coming to realize that they're just people no different than anyone else, and I think his initial eerieness ties into that. Unfortunately, it successfully also communicated “parents have an obligation to their children because no matter how much it makes sense to you, you can gently caress your child up for life.” Him not being a supervillain doesn’t change the effect he had on Annie, or the audience.
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Feb 9, 2023 20:29
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Joe Slowboat posted:Unfortunately, it successfully also communicated “parents have an obligation to their children because no matter how much it makes sense to you, you can gently caress your child up for life.”
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Feb 9, 2023 21:57
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Grognan posted:well, betcha you never been consumed by grief about a core person who's legacy lives in front of you but is not them Captain Oblivious posted:People who’s wife died in childbirth somehow manage to soldier on and not be terrible. It is a known phenomenon. Surma didn't even die giving birth to her. He had years to prepare for this. Years. Surma died shortly before Annie joined Gunnerkrigg Court, at the age of 12, meaning Surma lived over a decade before passing. We know that Tony was able to spend time alone with Annie to some extent, such as the scene with her touching his karate gi. And yet even while Surma was very much alive, he could not get himself to view her as a separate human being. Here, I will just paste my post from before that encapsulates my main problem with Tony. Tiny Myers posted:
Also: coolusername posted:In my opinion, the comic dropped a nuke when it was meaning to lob a grenade.
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Feb 10, 2023 02:21
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Hardest thing in the world is writing a sympathetic abusive parent without making it seem like you're forgiving them for their abuse. Tony is unquestionably a bad guy but he's also clearly dealing with some kind of untreated and unacknowledged mental disorder.
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Feb 10, 2023 02:38
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It feels like saying a lot that Ysengrin, who was violent and unpredictable and deeply loathed humanity and tried to kill Annie, was far more likable and sympathetic. I guess because he visibly had a positive effect on Annie, unlike her dad. 
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Feb 10, 2023 03:05
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Splicer posted:I think there's some narrative reframing being shoehorned in here. Evergreen quote
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Feb 10, 2023 03:16
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Grognan posted:well, betcha you never been consumed by grief about a core person who's legacy lives in front of you but is not them How about the INDIVIDUAL in front of you having a "legacy" thrust upon them for simply being born? On top of dealing with their own grief. Edit: God I loving hate Mindcage. Not getting sucked into this again. catapede fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Feb 10, 2023 |
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Feb 10, 2023 07:11
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