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Iunnrais posted:I'm wanting to get into this series for the first time. Is the OP still correct that the best first game to play would be DW7? Or is 8 a better starting place? I only have a PS3.
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Aug 3, 2014 04:01
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OmanyteJackson posted:So is everyone else abusing Yueyang's murdercane of death? it made grinding for Redhare pretty tolerable if you aren't using the zhou tai shuffle to beat skirmish maps on beginner you are making it way, way too hard
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Aug 3, 2014 04:08
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OmanyteJackson posted:So is everyone else abusing Yueyang's murdercane of death? it made grinding for Redhare pretty tolerable I used Zhang Jiao wielding two halberds. Anyone can perform miraculous feats of murder with that setup. Iunnrais posted:I'm wanting to get into this series for the first time. Is the OP still correct that the best first game to play would be DW7? Or is 8 a better starting place? I only have a PS3. 7 does have the superior story mode, but 8 has much better gameplay, which I consider more important.
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Aug 3, 2014 04:09
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Maleketh posted:7 does have the superior story mode, but 8 has much better gameplay, which I consider more important. I never really had any problems with DW7's gameplay, I thought it was perfectly fun. I've been a die-hard fan since DW3, though, so I may just be overlooking stuff. DW7 gives you the best primer on what actually went on during the three kingdoms era. It does a pretty good job of selling the drama, despite being a bit silly sometimes. DW8's story mode just feels...nowhere near as good by comparison. Both games are good though, so I doubt you'll go wrong choosing either one.
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Aug 3, 2014 04:29
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TooManyUzukis posted:I never really had any problems with DW7's gameplay, I thought it was perfectly fun. I've been a die-hard fan since DW3, though, so I may just be overlooking stuff. Don't get me wrong - I enjoyed 7 quite a lot. But 8 has better weapon variety and more reason to actually switch, thanks to the three-point system, and I think the level-based progression system works better than 7's skill trees system and stat item drops.
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Aug 3, 2014 04:34
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dw3? dw7 dw8 (looks gross) dw7 is a work of art. that cutscene is unironically one of my favourite cutscenes in a game
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Aug 3, 2014 04:35
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Haha, I've never actually seen that cut scene. Stopping Huang Zhong at Mt. Dingjun is one of the easier optional objectives.
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Aug 3, 2014 04:38
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I still think that the DW7 Wei ending was awesome. Cao Cao's last words.  Not to mention the stinger with Sima Yi.If you are interested in a cliff notes version of The Three Kingdoms, then DW7. otherwise, 8 has it beat in almost every other way.
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Aug 3, 2014 04:41
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Verviticus posted:dw3?
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Aug 3, 2014 04:46
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Tae posted:Didn't Sun Shiang participate in a battle under Dong Zhuo in DW8 when she should've been like 10? In DW7 Wu's story mode starts out with all four members of the Sun family fighting together, despite the fact Sun Jian was a child at that point. At least he was in the 2010 TV series. I have no idea how hold Shangxiang was at that point but if she's supposed to be younger than them, then she'd be even younger than 10. Also I think Hyrule Warriors may be the first Warriors game where there's more playable women characters than men. At least so far, Darunia and Link are the only two guys, and the other eight confirmed characters are women. Assuming Sheik is a woman this time...it could be a different Sheik given that it seems Link/Impa/Lana/Sheik are all from the same timeline which means that this Sheik might not be Zelda in disguise like OoT Sheik.
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Aug 3, 2014 05:24
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Unlucky7 posted:I still think that the DW7 Wei ending was awesome. I think I actually do want to know the story, so I'll go for DW7. That said... the PS3 store offers DW7, and DW7:Xtreme Legends, both for the same price. Xtreme Legends says it's a "stand alone expansion"... does that mean it includes everything from the main DW7, or is it a different game?
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Aug 3, 2014 13:43
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Iunnrais posted:That said... the PS3 store offers DW7, and DW7:Xtreme Legends, both for the same price. Xtreme Legends says it's a "stand alone expansion"... does that mean it includes everything from the main DW7, or is it a different game? Extreme legends is a collection of bonus scenarios and extra characters/weapons/features. But it does not have the standard story campaign.
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Aug 3, 2014 13:49
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Iunnrais posted:I think I actually do want to know the story, so I'll go for DW7. To get the full experience, you get them both, but I'm not sure how DW7 does it, since all XL games prior used a disc swap method.
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Aug 3, 2014 17:23
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So Brony Hunter how was RL Zgao Yun vs Rotk Zhao Yun? I like how you described Liu Bei was a sly snake.
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Aug 3, 2014 17:51
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Iunnrais posted:I'm wanting to get into this series for the first time. Is the OP still correct that the best first game to play would be DW7? Or is 8 a better starting place? I only have a PS3. Having played both 7 and 8, I say go with 8, It takes the improvements of 7 and mixes it with the stuff people liked about 3-5. More weapons, More officers, More moves. also The story mode is better and you can play it co-op if that's what your into. I can't think of anything that 7 has over 8 other than 7 is probably cheaper now. Edit: Guess I'm alone in likeing the story in 8 more OmanyteJackson fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Aug 3, 2014 |
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Aug 3, 2014 18:22
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OmanyteJackson posted:Having played both 7 and 8, I say go with 8, It takes the improvements of 7 and mixes it with the stuff people liked about 3-5. More weapons, More officers, More moves. also The story mode is better and you can play it co-op if that's what your into.
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Aug 3, 2014 20:54
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A reason why DW7's story is so good is from comparison. It's the first DW in a long time (ever?) where each kingdom's storyline more closely matches the events in the novel, to where the last battle isn't always at Fan Castle or wherever, and to where officers and heroes emerge and leave at specific, sensible points. The voice-acted cutscenes are lengthy, and there's more specific (and sometimes even interesting) characterization. Sun Quan is an effective battle leader because he's kind of a coward, for example. Then you come in to DW8, which keeps a similar continuity, but many of the voice-acted cutscenes are replaced with map-based exposition with overlays and static officer portraits. The characterization is less deep as well. It's DW, right, like it's popular because horses get kicked in the face a hundred feet above the ground. But it was refreshing to see the direction they took with DW7. All that said, DW8 XL SE has so much content and so many officers to play that it's a wonderful buy at full price. It's just fun to play.
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Aug 4, 2014 01:13
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as someone whos first game was dw8, there were a lot of characters that just appeared for a two mission cameo with no introduction, and then died or vanished, and i had to look up who the gently caress they were. maybe this happened in dw7, im not really sure (i watched the cutscenes because they looked cool as hell relative to what dw8 offered but didn't really get into the game)
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Aug 4, 2014 01:15
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Verviticus posted:as someone whos first game was dw8, there were a lot of characters that just appeared for a two mission cameo with no introduction, and then died or vanished, and i had to look up who the gently caress they were. maybe this happened in dw7, im not really sure (i watched the cutscenes because they looked cool as hell relative to what dw8 offered but didn't really get into the game) DW7 had characters who never showed up at all in Story Mode. Those that did generally got a fair amount of development, but if memory serves, about half of them were never mentioned, including a fair chunk of the characters the game introduced. One reason that game's story was more cohesive was that it focused on a relatively small number of characters.
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Aug 4, 2014 01:18
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Maleketh posted:DW7 had characters who never showed up at all in Story Mode. Those that did generally got a fair amount of development, but if memory serves, about half of them were never mentioned, including a fair chunk of the characters the game introduced. One reason that game's story was more cohesive was that it focused on a relatively small number of characters. I really hope DW9 does this. I have some hope for it, too, as odd-numbered DWs always seemed to follow the history more closely, while even numbered DWs kinda go hog-wild at points.
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Aug 4, 2014 01:29
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TooManyUzukis posted:I really hope DW9 does this. I have some hope for it, too, as odd-numbered DWs always seemed to follow the history more closely, while even numbered DWs kinda go hog-wild at points. I actually preferred DW8's approach, mostly because I like being able to use a lot of characters. That, and they devs were keenly aware of how silly some of those appearances were and just ran with it.
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Aug 4, 2014 01:32
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TooManyUzukis posted:I really hope DW9 does this. I have some hope for it, too, as odd-numbered DWs always seemed to follow the history more closely, while even numbered DWs kinda go hog-wild at points.
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Aug 4, 2014 01:35
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I never understood why Samurai Warriors kept the create-a-warrior system for the base games while Dynasty Warriors shifted it over to spinoffs. I miss that, SW1's creation system was awesome!
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Aug 4, 2014 01:36
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Policenaut posted:I miss that, SW1's creation system was awesome! I think it was pretty devisive. I liked the "training camp" idea, but felt that the execution was pretty terrible.
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Aug 4, 2014 01:43
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Verviticus posted:dw3? If we're talking DW7, I'd like to put forward that this is the best pre-Yi Ling cutscene pretty much in any Dynasty Warriors game
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Aug 4, 2014 02:16
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Policenaut posted:I never understood why Samurai Warriors kept the create-a-warrior system for the base games while Dynasty Warriors shifted it over to spinoffs. I miss that, SW1's creation system was awesome! Probably to help keep them more distinct so people are more likely to buy both.
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Aug 4, 2014 02:30
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Trollhawke posted:If we're talking DW7, I'd like to put forward that this is the best pre-Yi Ling cutscene pretty much in any Dynasty Warriors game I kind of wish that there is a longer segment of Liu Bei being on the warpath. He actually becomes interesting, instead of generic anime hero, but it lasts for one battle and then he dies. Unlucky7 fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 02:31
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DW7's story mode was far more enjoyable as a story but I preferred DW8 giving me character choices. I really liked the historical/hypothetical splits because it appealed to the part of me that likes time travel stories where people avert catastrophes and it kinda felt like that if you played it blind and went back and did the hypotheticals later, though some of them were better than others (Jin's hypothetical suffers from its ramifications affecting a time period the game simply can't cover). Another thing to note is that DW7 contains no Free Mode AT ALL. If you wanted to play anyone who wasn't playable in the story (Which is a hefty list in DW7) then I hope you like Conquest Mode 'cause it's all you'll get. DW8's Ambition Mode is a grindfest but at least you have Free Mode and you can pretty much ignore Ambition after unlocking Weapon Fusion and Red Hare (I went through all the trouble of getting that War Elephant and lemme tell you, that was a huge letdown, I really wish Koei would make mounts other than horses viable).
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Aug 4, 2014 02:36
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After playing DW8PC a bit more, I can see that it is not reading my controller's inputs totally right even in the menus; one out of every 20 inputs or so it just ignores. I've never run into a problem like this in a game before. edit: if this was a million years ago I'd think it was an IRQ conflict or something. Samurai Sanders fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 05:03
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gyrobot posted:So Brony Hunter how was RL Zgao Yun vs Rotk Zhao Yun? I like how you described Liu Bei was a sly snake. I'm gonna assume you know about RoTK Zhao Yun, right? Peerless, invicible warrior of amazing loyalty, integrity and honour, who charged through Cao Cao's entire army at Changban to rescue Liu Bei's infant son. The real Zhao Yun was...was...rather boring and dull and most irrelevant, really. I'm gonna say this, at least he wasn't arrogant to the point of delusion like Guan Yu. Or a brutal thug like Zhang Fei. Or a self interested opportunist like Liu Bei. Or an utter MONSTER like Ma Chao. He was just kinda...there. Part of this may be down to Shu's official records being rather vague and incomplete, but Zhao Yun didn't get appointed to a decent rank at all until Zhuge Liang's regime. But let's recap a little. He started his career as a low ranking officer of Gongsun Zan, but didn't seem to have any battle roles. He followed Liu Bei when he defected from Gongsun Zan to mess around in Xu Province. After that, he's not really mentioned in official records for another fourteen or so years. Presumably he held some role in Liu Bei's fledgling army (and later Liu Bei'd rabble of assorted bandits) but he didn't do anything noteworthy enough for any historian or record keeper to write down it seems. Anyway, his "Big moment" comes at Changban. Changban is one of those battles that have been blown out of proportion by mythology and later in operas and the Romance novel, glorifying Shu's warriors. This was done over time for many rather complicated I might get into in another post. For now, try and forget about the fictionalised accounts of the battle, and disregard the more superhuman feats that certain warriors performed there in the novel and other adaptations. During Changban, Liu Bei (who was now VERY adapt at fleeing) had abandoned his wife, children and his concubines for what? The fourth? Fifth time? Guy just really did not give a poo poo about them and I'm surprised how Ladies Mi and Gan always seemed to survive their husband's cowardice and find a way back to him in one piece. Anyway, Liu Bei's daughters had been captured by Cao Cao's men in a previous battle. At Changban, Liu Bei's army was pretty much crushed by Cao Cao's elite cavalry. Liu Bei scarpered with his remaining forces. Once again, he abandoned his household, this time including his young heir Liu Shan. Okay, this is where Zhao Yun comes in. Given just how many refugees had been following Liu Bei (over 100,000 according to some sources) Lady Gan and Liu Shan had been mixed up with all of them. Zhao Yun came along and walked them over to where Liu Bei was hiding out. There is no evidence that he had to fend off enemy soldiers, or even that they were noticed. They just...walked without any real danger or excitement. Of course that's rather boring so you can see one of the reasons why this particular deed was blown out of proportion. Zhao Yun's next real role was during Liu Bei's campaign against Liu Zhang. He, along with Zhuge Liang and others, was part of the reinforcements from Jing that arrived to assist when Pang Tong died and Liu Bei's march began to stagnate. He fought a few battles during this time but this seems to be as a subordinate or lieutenant rather than commanding armies himself. He did get a promotion to General once Liu Bei siezed Yi..but, like, he gave rewards and promotions to EVERYONE after he took Chengdu, so yeah. That's all the official records and trusted histories say about his role under Liu Bei. More dubious sources suggest he commanded armies at Hanzhong and baffled Cao Cao with an Empty City Ploy, or attemptd to stop Sun Shangxiang from returning to Wu. These stories and others come from glorified fanfiction and shouldn't really be trusted. Since such amazing deeds like him ambushing Cao Cao's entire army at Hanzhong simply aren't mentioned anywhere else (not in his biography, not in any of Shu or Wei's, not in any annotations or commentaries left by later historians...) we can disregard them as nonsense. Back to reality, it seems that Zhao Yun was big friends with Zhuge Liang. Now, Zhuge Liang is a guy that gets a bad rap from modern armchair historians in my opinion. He had his faults, but I don't think he was quite as terrible as some others seem to think. His main big problem, however, was his cronyism. As soon as he became in charge of Shu's affairs, he promoted a bunch of his buddies to lofty positions. The likes of Ma Su, Deng Zhi and Yang Yi were given importance and ranks perhaps beyond their ability, whilst people like Wei Yan (who Zhuge did not like) were "promoted sideways", given important sounding ranks and titles but made utterly subordinate during his Northern Campaigns. Despite never having a vital role under Liu Bei and seemingly only having minimal leadership experience compared to some of his peers, Zhao Yun recieved various important ranks during Zhuge Liang's tenure. During Zhuge Liang's first campaign (the one with Tianshui and Jieting), Zhao Yun and Deng Zhi were sent with an army against the experienced Wei commander, Cao Zhen. They were crushed and sent packing without much fuss. He passed away a year or two later. The SGZ does praise the guy for being honourable and of good character, so at least he had more integrity than the likes of Zhang Fei. However he played such a minor role historically he'd have remained as a footnote if not for all the mythology and fictitious accounts that grew around him and some other officers of Shu.
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Aug 4, 2014 12:18
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I have a question then. Was Zhou Tai really the worlds greatest samurai? Please say yes.
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Aug 4, 2014 13:25
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Brony Hunter posted:Or an utter MONSTER like Ma Chao. What is Ma Chao's deal anyway, and Wang Yi's for that matter? The in-game encyclopedia doesn't mention much other than Ma Chao killing her family at some point.
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Aug 4, 2014 15:00
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a cartoon duck posted:What is Ma Chao's deal anyway, and Wang Yi's for that matter? The in-game encyclopedia doesn't mention much other than Ma Chao killing her family at some point. The historical Ma Chao's deal is that is a humongous douchebag made of douche, poop, and the tears of Chinese orphans.
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Aug 4, 2014 15:06
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ThePhenomenalBaby posted:I have a question then. Was Zhou Tai really the worlds greatest samurai? Please say yes. Of course. His katana can cut through tanks you know. I saw it on tv. Onto Ma Chao. Urgh this is an ugly and unpleasant topic. In the novel and other adaptations, Ma Chao is known for desiring revenge against Cao Cao for murdering his father, Ma Teng, as well as his younger brothers. Basically, in Romance, Ma Teng was a member of a failed consipiracy against Cao Cao under the orders of the Emperor. (As well as other minor characters, Liu Bei was also part of this attempted coup) For various reasons the coup never happens, but Cao Cao eventually finds out about it and kills Ma Teng and his clan whilst they are in the capital. Ma Chao, in a fit of rage (and most importantly to the intended readers of the novel, filial piety) gathers an army. This great army includes Han Sui, a man who was Ma Teng's sworn brother, and a bunch of other minor warlords who hate Cao Cao. Long story short, they get beaten due to Cao Cao's plots, but come close to beating him. It's actually a pretty good read in the novel, all things considered, and made Ma Chao quite an endearing character. Now let's talk about what happened in history. Hoo boy. Okay, so Ma Teng in the novel is portrayed as a Han loyalist. In history...he and Han Sui were part of the Liangzhou Rebellions, a large scale uprising that also involved various non-Chinese clans and tribes. The Han army was rather humiliated in the initial engagements, with many officers actually mutinying and joining the rebels. Ma Teng was amongst these men who betrayed the Han to throw in their lots with the rebels and their foreign allies. Liang Province fell into such disorder that several ministers wanted to just abandon it entirely. Fortunately for China, the Han armies did recieve some success after a while, and as the rebellion's initial leaders died or were deposed infighting ensued. Out of the chaos, Ma Teng and Han Sui rose as two of the most prominent factions, and spent half the time fighting each other, and the other half enjoying uneasy alliances. As this was around the same time that Big Dong was in the capital the rest of the land pretty much ignored what was going on in Liang province for a while. Now, Dong Zhuo had previously fought against the rebels, but as Yuan Shao's alliance began advancing on him he made agreements with Ma Teng and Han Sui, offering them official ranks in exchange for help defending against the coalition. This agreement carried on as Li Jue succeeded Dong Zhuo, although IIRC they came to arms first. So, Ma Chao's dad was a willing traitor who later sided with the most infamous tyrant of the time. Good start. After Li Jue lost control of the Emperor, Ma Teng and Han Sui came to blows once more. This time poo poo started to get serious, with family members being targeted. I think this is where Ma Chao is first mentioned. Commanding his father's troops, he engaged Han Sui. Han Sui sent his champion, a guy called Yan Xing, to duel Ma Chao. This is notable as being one of the few actual duels between officers recorded in the official histories. Anyway, Yan Xing, a dude most of you have probably never heard of..kicked Ma Chao's rear end. He pretty much destroyed him, and it took him ages to recover from the beating he received. In order to quell the region, in about 200 AD ish Cao Cao sent a talented politician called Zhong Yao (the father of Zhong Hui) to Changan. In exchange for some fairly prestigious titles, he made an alliance with Ma Teng and Han Sui and convinced them to kiss and make up. He even persuaded Ma Teng to send reinforcements against the Yuans. Together with Pang De, Ma Chao attacked a Yuan army threatening Luoyang and destroyed it. Pang De even took the head of the enemy commander, Guo Yuan. (That's actually a funny story for another day) Some time before he marched on Jing, Cao Cao wanted to ensure his western flank would give him no trouble. Knowing how flaky Ma Teng had been in the past, he had to make sure he wouldn't cause trouble whilst he was on his Southern campaign. He invited him to Xuchang and made him one of the Nine Ministers, an extremely prestigous title for someone like Ma Teng and an offer he really couldn't refuse. However, his actual power and influence in the capital were kept to a minimum and really was there as a glorified hostage. Ma Chao would never dare rebel with his own father essentially in Cao Cao's hands, and Han Sui's army was not powerful enough on it's own to be a real threat. Well, that was the idea at least. Shortly after Cao Cao's crushing defeat at Chibi, he prepared for a campaign against Zhang Lu at Hanzhong. Ma Chao claimed that Cao Cao was actually planning to attack Liang province and convinced Han Sui and other local leaders to rebel against him. Maybe he genuinely thought Cao Cao was planning to attack them, maybe he was sensing weakness after Cao's loss at Chibi and subsequent defeats inn Jing. Either way, Ma Chao and Han Sui rebelled. Cao Cao didn't mess around. The rebellion was over 100,000 strong and occupied Tong pass. Cao Cao brought all his big boys. Cao Ren, Xu Huang, Xu Chu, Xiahou Yuan, Jia Xu...he took this uprising extremely seriously and saw it as an opportunity to pacify Liang for good. I'm not going to go into full detail about the battle here, but let's just say it was pretty much one sided. Cao Cao's army won almost every engagement, and was able to drive a wedge between Ma Chao and Han Sui. The alliance broke up and Ma Chao fled back to Liang province, making alliances with Zhang Lu and various tribes and mercenaries. Cao Cao returned home, leaving Xiahou Yuan in charge of mopping up. He executed Ma Teng in retaliation for his son's rebellion. Ma Chao recruited another big army, mostly made up of tribal elements, and began rampaging throughout Liang. Even when cities surrendered, he tended to kill their leaders and let his soldiers run wild however they wanted. Wang Yi's husband was one of these local leaders, and their son was amongst the many executed by Ma Chao for resisting. Wang Yi herself took up arms to defend Ji city, and together with an alliance of locals they managed to drive away Ma Chao. As the people of Liang weren't too happy with all of Ma Chao's raping and pillaging his army soon collapsed and he was forced to escape to Zhang Lu. Persuading Zhang Lu to give him another army, he attacked Wang Yi and her husband at Mt Qi, but thanks to Xiahou Yuan arriving he was crushed again. This time, Zhang Lu was starting to get fed up with Ma Chao. Ma Chao was already looking for another lord to serve. He was persuaded by someone to go help Liu Bei, who was gaining ground in his war with Liu Zhang. Ma Chao brought an army south and defected to Liu Bei. Shortly afterwards, Liu Zhang was convinced to surrender. Ma Chao didn't do a whole lot under Liu Bei, although was given very high ranks by his new lord. He assisted Zhang Fei during the initial battles in Hanzhong, but was defeated by Xiahou Yuan again. A couple years later, he passed away and his troops passed to Ma Dai. So yeah, that's a brief summary of the life and times of Ma Chao. He's hardly the paragon of justice and virtue the games portray him as...
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Aug 4, 2014 16:30
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Hm. That's amusing because DW8, he seemed to be persuaded easily enough that even Ma Dai went 'whuh'? Also explains a little why he was helping Dong Zhuo in a DW5 map where Zhuo is up against the Yellow Turbans. Thank you for the infodump, it's interesting.
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Aug 4, 2014 16:39
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Brony Hunter posted:Ma Chao the Mad Chaos Out of interest, was Ma Dai any better than Ma Chao?
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Aug 4, 2014 16:56
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Reading this thread kind of reminds me of my Arthurian Legends class where I learned the historical Arthur, if one even exists, was no doubt a insignificant dick-hole. I hope in two thousand years our digital records fail and history classes speculate that Ron Paul was some giant of American politics who was a champion of the public and ultimately couldn't achieve his dream because toxic, corrupting, bureaucracy.
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Aug 4, 2014 17:03
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So who in Shu wasn't a conniving douche? I'm going to guess Wei Yan and that's about it. Gimnbo fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 17:05
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Gimnbo posted:So who in Shu wasn't a conniving douche?
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Aug 4, 2014 17:08
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Samurai Sanders posted:Guan Yinping doesn't seem very conniving to me. Okay fine; who real, not a conniving rear end in a top hat, and in Shu? Edit: On a side, I downloaded the Japanese language pack, but then I played as Sima Yi all day. The good news is his constant laughing is just as charming in Japanese. alpha_destroy fucked around with this message at 17:16 on Aug 4, 2014 |
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Aug 4, 2014 17:12
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