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I'm really shocked that Computer Science people could fail the FizzBuzz test (outside of the issues that you had, ratbert, wrt the environment and pressure) because even I, as a dude who did poorly in programming classes in high school can explain to you exactly how it would work, if not actually write the code for it since I don't actually know any languages.
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May 21, 2014 17:16
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Inspector_666 posted:I'm really shocked that Computer Science people could fail the FizzBuzz test (outside of the issues that you had, ratbert, wrt the environment and pressure) because even I, as a dude who did poorly in programming classes in high school can explain to you exactly how it would work, if not actually write the code for it since I don't actually know any languages. I mainly deal with the Linux kernel all day, so writing to memory registers and turning on and off pins is a cakewalk. Then I get something way easy like that and welp.
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May 21, 2014 17:20
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Welp, possible  in progress. In the salary negotiation phase now. I am not sure if i'm going to get the money I want, but hey, its nice to know that interviewing is just as crazy as I remember.
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May 21, 2014 18:11
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nitrogen posted:Welp, possible I have come to the conclusion that I loving hate job interviews because they are pretty much somebody sitting down with you and saying "I want you to lie to me until I ask a technical question."
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May 21, 2014 18:14
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Pissing me off? When someone doesn't read the last message in the thread after I replied and added someone else. Now there's two different branches to the same email chain. How hard is it to take a second before replying and sort by subject or date/time. While I'm at it my boss who is so bad at email management she has hundreds if unread emails.
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May 21, 2014 19:26
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tomapot posted:Pissing me off? When someone doesn't read the last message in the thread after I replied and added someone else. Now there's two different branches to the same email chain. How hard is it to take a second before replying and sort by subject or date/time. My old boss would not read email all day, then later at night start responding to emails. He would respond to the first one in a thread and just ignore the extra dozen emails that came in since that. It would make my blood boil.
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May 21, 2014 19:48
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Moey posted:My old boss would not read email all day, then later at night start responding to emails. He would respond to the first one in a thread and just ignore the extra dozen emails that came in since that. It would make my blood boil.  I was hired to lead. Not to read.
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May 21, 2014 19:54
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ratbert90 posted:It didn't help that I use a ergonomic keyboard at work and it was on a cramped 13inch notebook during the test. The typos were numerous and bad. Also it had to be done in VIM. Okay. Sorry in advance. I don't want to be a dick here. But you've heard the phrase "a bad workman blames the tools"? You blew FizzBuzz. That means you're not a programmer, that's what FizzBuzz is for. It filters out people who aren't really programmers and who have accidentally ended up in an interview for a job that requires you to be one. If you can't do FizzBuzz in a language you've never seen before with one hand being slowly pulled towards a running chainsaw in an editor you've never heard of strictly by voice input in Chinese, and still finish in five minutes and have it work the first time, you're probably not a programmer. That's fine! There are tons of people who aren't programmers! But don't pretend it had anything to do with the keyboard and the editor; it wasn't a job you could have done because you just don't have the right skillset for it. Again, that's totally fine! I couldn't do your job, specialization is like that. But this is just an interview working as expected.
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May 21, 2014 21:08
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SolTerrasa posted:Okay. Sorry in advance. I don't want to be a dick here. But you've heard the phrase "a bad workman blames the tools"? You blew FizzBuzz. That means you're not a programmer, that's what FizzBuzz is for. It filters out people who aren't really programmers and who have accidentally ended up in an interview for a job that requires you to be one. If you can't do FizzBuzz in a language you've never seen before with one hand being slowly pulled towards a running chainsaw in an editor you've never heard of strictly by voice input in Chinese, and still finish in five minutes and have it work the first time, you're probably not a programmer. Look at the syntax for the bash script version that was posted and tell me you wouldn't get tripped up by the millions of braces and brackets. I could write fizzbuzz in 3 minutes in C but bash scripting is a nightmare
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May 21, 2014 21:13
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Yeah I tried it last night in python and it only took a minute or two but: gently caress Bash gently caress VIM and gently caress notebook keyboards. I'm sure I could do a bash script in vim but I'd need to look up the syntax since I haven't done anything in bash for a long time and I can use vim but I end up making a lot of accidents because I don't ever use vim unless I'm desperate and its my only option.
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May 21, 2014 21:35
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It's OK I still use nano. Someone in my building with the internal wifi password and a spoofed mac address leeched 50gb of bandwidth yesterday night, starting at 5pm eastern. I double dare them to try it again 
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May 21, 2014 21:55
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mewse posted:Look at the syntax for the bash script version that was posted and tell me you wouldn't get tripped up by the millions of braces and brackets. I could write fizzbuzz in 3 minutes in C but bash scripting is a nightmare About 4 months in to my job I wrote a handful of bash scripts (first time) to do some file operations. When it came time to change one of them about 6 months later I re-wrote the thing in python. I'm sure it all makes sense in some context but working with variable syntax drove me up a loving wall.
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May 21, 2014 21:57
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A c E posted:I'm sure I could do a bash script in vim but I'd need to look up the syntax since I haven't done anything in bash for a long time and I can use vim but I end up making a lot of accidents because I don't ever use vim unless I'm desperate and its my only option.
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May 21, 2014 21:58
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SolTerrasa posted:That's fine! There are tons of people who aren't programmers! But don't pretend it had anything to do with the keyboard and the editor; it wasn't a job you could have done because you just don't have the right skillset for it. Again, that's totally fine! I couldn't do your job, specialization is like that. But this is just an interview working as expected. I'm just going to throw this out here, but some people, who are incredibly talented and have the skills, sometimes have a moment. A little bit of anxiety isn't a bad thing, but sometimes it trips you up at the worst time, and in the worst way. Then you are thinking about how dumb you look, rather then being able to calmly take the 30 seconds it requires to think the answer through. One of my company dev's is brilliant, has won awards for his coding, poo poo like that. Every now and then he has a brainfart and just needs to walk away from even simple things.
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May 21, 2014 22:10
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Roargasm posted:It's OK I still use nano. And here I am thinking I was the only one who liked nano...
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May 21, 2014 22:19
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Moey posted:And here I am thinking I was the only one who liked nano... I use nano as well, along with gedit.
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May 21, 2014 22:20
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SolTerrasa posted:Okay. Sorry in advance. I don't want to be a dick here. But you've heard the phrase "a bad workman blames the tools"? You blew FizzBuzz. That means you're not a programmer, that's what FizzBuzz is for. It filters out people who aren't really programmers and who have accidentally ended up in an interview for a job that requires you to be one. If you can't do FizzBuzz in a language you've never seen before with one hand being slowly pulled towards a running chainsaw in an editor you've never heard of strictly by voice input in Chinese, and still finish in five minutes and have it work the first time, you're probably not a programmer. No, I'm pretty sure it's just bash being a piece of poo poo along with an equally lovely environment. Like, if I were unprepared I wouldn't be able to do Fizzbuzz during a job interview. Literally any other language would be fine.
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May 21, 2014 22:28
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Fizzbuzz is supposed to gauge thought process. The bullshit about "must use $editor" or "write it in brainfuck" is irrelevant. Someone who understands programming and programming languages should be able to get up to speed quickly with just about any language, so pseudocode on a whiteboard or sheet of paper should be adequate to demonstrate that an interviewee has the conceptual knowledge and skills necessary for a programming job.
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May 21, 2014 22:36
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You know what's funny? I have written 5000+ line bash scripts that control entire production environments; on more than one occasion. It shouldn't have tripped me up. The next day I had another interview and did a far harder problem than fizzbuzz in both python and bash without any issues. poo poo happens and I moved on.
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May 21, 2014 22:38
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ratbert90 posted:I use nano as well, along with gedit. I use nano for small/quick edits and sublime for everything else.
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May 21, 2014 22:39
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Siochain posted:I'm just going to throw this out here, but some people, who are incredibly talented and have the skills, sometimes have a moment. A little bit of anxiety isn't a bad thing, but sometimes it trips you up at the worst time, and in the worst way. Then you are thinking about how dumb you look, rather then being able to calmly take the 30 seconds it requires to think the answer through. One of my company dev's is brilliant, has won awards for his coding, poo poo like that. Every now and then he has a brainfart and just needs to walk away from even simple things. Basically this. It's truly unfortunate that ratbert90 failed fizzbuzz, but seeing as 1) it sounds like he was nervous and just blanked out 2) was asked to do it in a language he doesn't work in primarily 3) could do it easily once he calmed down 4) isn't really used to programming interviews anyway I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt than assume that he's not A True Programmer. He definitely shouldn't blame the laptop, at least he got an editor and keyboard instead of a whiteboard and marker.
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May 21, 2014 22:43
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Moey posted:And here I am thinking I was the only one who liked nano... Is nano not cool anymore? It's always the first thing I install on a fresh *nix/BSD install. I'll download the tarball and compile it from source if it means I don't have to use vim.
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May 21, 2014 22:55
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KaneTW posted:No, I'm pretty sure it's just bash being a piece of poo poo along with an equally lovely environment. Like, if I were unprepared I wouldn't be able to do Fizzbuzz during a job interview. Literally any other language would be fine. Okay, sure, then you're not a bash scripter. That's fine too (I hate it when I have to do it), but if you're being tested on bash scripting then the interviewer will rightly weed you out. I just straight-up refuse to believe that FizzBuzz, of all the things in the world, has a non-negligible false negative rate. I can see that people in this thread disagree, though, so I'll drop it. Ratbert90, again, not trying to be a dick or call you an idiot, and it looks like you got up and moved on and that's awesome. Best of luck to you.
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May 21, 2014 22:56
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Helushune posted:Is nano not cool anymore? It's always the first thing I install on a fresh *nix/BSD install. I'll download the tarball and compile it from source if it means I don't have to use vim. No idea, I have always enjoyed it. I just never see it mentioned much, always Vim vs Emacs.
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May 21, 2014 23:10
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The one edge that vi has on anything else: it's on every *nix box.
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May 21, 2014 23:40
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SolTerrasa posted:Okay, sure, then you're not a bash scripter. That's fine too (I hate it when I have to do it), but if you're being tested on bash scripting then the interviewer will rightly weed you out. I just straight-up refuse to believe that FizzBuzz, of all the things in the world, has a non-negligible false negative rate. No. One failure does not mean you are not suited to a particular task or profession or calling. Full stop. It doesn't matter how trivial the task is at which you failed. This is not a scientific hypothesis, and being unable to perform a task one time does not qualify as a counterexample.
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May 22, 2014 00:03
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mewse posted:Re-doing the patch panel with velcro and correct cabling shouldn't be made moot by old equipment being removed soon, should it? I finally got back and can catch up on this, but essentially the existing racks are a nightmare, so we have some long runs from the patch panels to our existing equipment. What doesn't help, and isn't surprising, is that not enough cables were ordered, so the first crew ran out of 3 and 5 foot cables early, so a few locations are rocking 7 and 14's. I'll have to see if I have a good example picture that doesn't ID the building. However, enough poo poo exploded over the weekend so I didn't spend time cleaning up cables, and was busy on other things, so at least it wasn't boring. Also, the hotel/resort we were staying at has free BBQ grills for guests, so we would head to a grocery store, fill a cart with steaks and beer, and grill outside. That part was nice.
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May 22, 2014 01:45
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This is wrong in so many ways. I'm a developer for Redhat and I'd fail at fizzbuzz in bash. gently caress shell scripting. Python's fine, though. Job before this, I had a working interview as well. Trivial script to parse webserver logs. I used perl. Didn't work. Both I and the 3 people I was with stared at it on the projector until someone else walked by and pointed out that I was using list context everywhere instead of scalar (it had been a while since I'd written perl, and the rest of the script worked with a quick replace in vim, but 4/4 people missed it). The logic was fine aside from that. Working interviews are often terrible, and people make mistakes. Especially doing moderately complex stuff (associative arrays, casting, POSIX regex matching) in a language which evaluates "if [" and "if [[" totally differently. It is not at all an indication that you're "not a programmer", especially if you can do it in another language or when you're not on the spot. e: I should read the whole thread ere I reply evol262 fucked around with this message at 02:09 on May 22, 2014 |
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May 22, 2014 02:00
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I think you'd get more out of the FizzBuzz question if you talk to the candidate throughout the process. I mean, you don't want to interrupt their work, but encourage them to take a minute here and there to explain why they're making certain decisions, what their plan is, etc. I'd expect a competent programmer to be able to come up with some sort of algorithm that would give the desired output even if they can't get the exact syntax right. What I'd be really worried about is a programmer that immediately spits out a perfect block of code and then can't explain how it works. Even if he's legit, is he going to be able to work with your team?
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May 22, 2014 03:05
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evol262 posted:This is wrong in so many ways. I'm a developer for Redhat and I'd fail at fizzbuzz in bash. gently caress shell scripting. Python's fine, though. No one can agree on what you need to know to be a developer, full story at 11. I should have known better than to suggest literally anything, I guess. http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/03/get-that-job-at-google.html posted:
E: Ah, gently caress phoneposting. EE: Augh, and before you get super mad at me, you are not  in this scenario. No one is. It's a quote from a prominent software engineer and hiring committee member within Google, meant to illustrate that no one ever agrees about interviews ever.
SolTerrasa fucked around with this message at 03:19 on May 22, 2014 |
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May 22, 2014 03:10
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blah blah blah, I like asking question X in interviews, blah blah blah...
That's it. I'm never talking about interviewing again.
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SolTerrasa posted:No one can agree on what you need to know to be a developer, full story at 11. Actually this had nothing to do with what you need to know to be a developer. This was about shooting down your assertion that one failure in a high pressure situation makes you NOT a developer. Let's leave aside the fact that a lot of really, REALLY smart people completely break down in high-pressure situations that do not reflect a day-to-day working environment (interviewing, testing in school, etc.). By stating that a single failure makes someone unsuited to a job, you are saying that developers must be perfect in order to be "real" developers. So, no mistakes ever. Can you see how ludicrous this is? Can you see how by stating this as your belief, you come across as smug and elitist, and imply that you yourself have never failed at whatever it is you do? This attitude chaps my rear end more than most things because this is an industry full of extremely smart people who are also very introspective and critical of themselves, and do not need people like you trying to shoot them down with nonsense. Failure is how we learn. Every failure is an opportunity to get better. You told him to give up after a single one.
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May 22, 2014 03:43
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 for me! Start next Tuesday, 8-5, 42k/year and I get to touch all kinds of tech toys other than just PC's and stuff connected to the network. Thanks to those that helped calm my nerves!
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May 22, 2014 04:00
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Che Delilas posted:Actually this had nothing to do with what you need to know to be a developer. This was about shooting down your assertion that one failure in a high pressure situation makes you NOT a developer. Let's leave aside the fact that a lot of really, REALLY smart people completely break down in high-pressure situations that do not reflect a day-to-day working environment (interviewing, testing in school, etc.). By stating that a single failure makes someone unsuited to a job, you are saying that developers must be perfect in order to be "real" developers. So, no mistakes ever. Can you see how ludicrous this is? Can you see how by stating this as your belief, you come across as smug and elitist, and imply that you yourself have never failed at whatever it is you do? you are doing it right now e: Seriously, how can you see a post which literally only says "no one can agree on what it is you need in order to be a developer, I should have known better than to try to make literally any assertions, no matter how apparently trivial they seem to me, because someone, somewhere will disagree" and respond with "no, because none of what you said has anything to do with what you need to know to be a developer." SolTerrasa fucked around with this message at 04:34 on May 22, 2014 |
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May 22, 2014 04:27
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SolTerrasa posted:you are doing it right now You backtracked from quote:You blew FizzBuzz. That means you're not a programmer, that's what FizzBuzz is for. to quote:Okay, sure, then you're not a bash scripter. and now you're trying to say "ok ok SORRY for trying to state any sort of opinion you loving nazis!!" Go back and figure out why we are all disagreeing with you.
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May 22, 2014 04:40
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You know whats pissing me off? Fizzbuzz poo poo in this thread.  Actually, that's not true, whats actually pissing me off is everyone in my department, including some schmuck from the legal department, got free passes to a conference in Vegas, and I had to stay and mend shop because I'm the low totem pole or some bullshit. Why can't I go to Vegas? I like nightclubs and casinos too!
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May 22, 2014 04:44
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Mustache Ride posted:You know whats pissing me off? Fizzbuzz poo poo in this thread. They found out your SA username and thought you'd make things uncomfortable.
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May 22, 2014 04:46
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Its funny you should say that, because the 3 other guys in my department have mustaches. Except me. I shaved mine last year when I interviewed for this job and never grew it back.
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May 22, 2014 04:49
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SolTerrasa posted:Okay. Sorry in advance. I don't want to be a dick here. But you've heard the phrase "a bad workman blames the tools"? You blew FizzBuzz. That means you're not a programmer, that's what FizzBuzz is for. It filters out people who aren't really programmers and who have accidentally ended up in an interview for a job that requires you to be one. If you can't do FizzBuzz in a language you've never seen before with one hand being slowly pulled towards a running chainsaw in an editor you've never heard of strictly by voice input in Chinese, and still finish in five minutes and have it work the first time, you're probably not a programmer. How about you gently caress right off? I have pretty bad CTS in my right and left hand to the point that I have wrist braces and a pretty decent ergonomic keyboard. I have written several API's for several embedded projects in both C and C++, including networking and video. I have written drivers for the Linux kernel, and I have backported massive amounts of code as well. Tell me I'm not a developer, because the thousands of lines of code I write every week sure as hell makes me feel like one. Edit* The problem yesterday was this: A^2 + B^2 == C^2 A + B + C == 1000 A < B < C Find the combination that meets all 3 of those conditions. I solved it in a few minutes with 3 for loops and a function to check the requirements.  Python Runtime: 4 seconds. Bash Runtime: N/A. C Rutime: Less than 100ms. FlapYoJacks fucked around with this message at 05:46 on May 22, 2014 |
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May 22, 2014 05:08
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e: ah, gently caress it
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May 22, 2014 05:15
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fromoutofnowhere posted:
Congrats! Not sure what you are coming from (have not been keeping up much), but what are you moving from and moving to?
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May 22, 2014 05:38
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