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fart simpson posted:What's "PRC Real Freedom"? Street making GBS threads. 
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Sep 29, 2014 04:29
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Right now the student message is that the National People's Congress doesn't even have the power to decide this matter, they say it should be entirely internal based on the Basic Law, while CY Leung is saying that he has absolutely no ability to change things, that it's entirely in the hands of the NPC. Obviously the NPC agrees with Mr Leung's assessment, because they don't take the Basic Law seriously, because why should they? They don't take their own constitution seriously either. Law is used as a tool to bludgeon your enemies to death, not to tie your own hands.
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Sep 29, 2014 04:31
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fart simpson posted:What's "PRC Real Freedom"? I can freely get around everywhere without a car, to go to a restaurant that's actually just a dumpling stand some lady with a good recipe freely set up on the side of the road. She's free to have a pet cat roaming around that I can play with while I eat. I'm then free to buy a beer and drink it while walking down the street on my way into a pharmacy to buy nearly any medication I want without a prescription. I'm free from the worry of muggings, random acts of public violence, and harassment by the police. I can pretty much walk into any non-government building or area any time I want, and I can keep chickens in the stairwell of my apartment building. I can buy products that are almost exactly the same as more expensive brand name products, because in day to day life I'm mostly free of trademark and copyright restrictions. If I had a 5 year old son I'd be free to choose to not send him to school if I didn't want to, and I could send him down the street to the corner store to buy beer and cigarettes for me and I wouldn't worry about his safety. I'm free to ride the bus without paying and there's nothing they can do to stop me. I can eat cats and dogs if I want, and I could sell weird homemade hornet infused moonshine and nobody would stop me. That's not nearly an exhaustive list of things I can freely do in China that I couldn't do in the US. And street making GBS threads, yes.
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Sep 29, 2014 04:32
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I can't see what China has to gain by integrating Hong Kong so forcefully. In 30 years they'll at least be freed by the agreement and be allowed to do whatever they want. I imagine the CCP really doesn't expect these protests to go anywhere.Gail Wynand posted:Incidentally, I've always thought it ironic that Singaporeans and Honkies each want what the other has, and they don't.
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Sep 29, 2014 04:34
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Electro-Boogie Jack posted:I can freely get around everywhere without a car, to go to a restaurant that's actually just a dumpling stand some lady with a good recipe freely set up on the side of the road. She's free to have a pet cat roaming around that I can play with while I eat. I'm then free to buy a beer and drink it while walking down the street on my way into a pharmacy to buy nearly any medication I want without a prescription. I'm free from the worry of muggings, random acts of public violence, and harassment by the police. I can pretty much walk into any non-government building or area any time I want, and I can keep chickens in the stairwell of my apartment building. I can buy products that are almost exactly the same as more expensive brand name products, because in day to day life I'm mostly free of trademark and copyright restrictions. If I had a 5 year old son I'd be free to choose to not send him to school if I didn't want to, and I could send him down the street to the corner store to buy beer and cigarettes for me and I wouldn't worry about his safety. I'm free to ride the bus without paying and there's nothing they can do to stop me. I can eat cats and dogs if I want, and I could sell weird homemade hornet infused moonshine and nobody would stop me. That's not nearly an exhaustive list of things I can freely do in China that I couldn't do in the US. So what's incorrect about any of that, and why are they all good things?
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Sep 29, 2014 04:36
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Electro-Boogie Jack posted:I can freely get around everywhere without a car, to go to a restaurant that's actually just a dumpling stand some lady with a good recipe freely set up on the side of the road. She's free to have a pet cat roaming around that I can play with while I eat. I'm then free to buy a beer and drink it while walking down the street on my way into a pharmacy to buy nearly any medication I want without a prescription. I'm free from the worry of muggings, random acts of public violence, and harassment by the police. I can pretty much walk into any non-government building or area any time I want, and I can keep chickens in the stairwell of my apartment building. I can buy products that are almost exactly the same as more expensive brand name products, because in day to day life I'm mostly free of trademark and copyright restrictions. If I had a 5 year old son I'd be free to choose to not send him to school if I didn't want to, and I could send him down the street to the corner store to buy beer and cigarettes for me and I wouldn't worry about his safety. I'm free to ride the bus without paying and there's nothing they can do to stop me. I can eat cats and dogs if I want, and I could sell weird homemade hornet infused moonshine and nobody would stop me. That's not nearly an exhaustive list of things I can freely do in China that I couldn't do in the US. But are you free to change government policy, should the need ever arise, and free to hear that your voice is being heard?
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Sep 29, 2014 04:40
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Nobody wanted independence during the hand over. We saw Singapore as a city that got kicked out by Malaysia. Even if Singapore is independent , Lee kuan is just a major rear end kisser Nowadays there's quite a bit of doubt in the air. Everyone's thinking why is China being so bad and why one country two systems isn't being upheld. China still controls most of Hong Kong water and electricity. During the 60s Hong Kong got severe water shortages and it was backroom negotiations between the British government and PRC that got the city dongjiang access
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Sep 29, 2014 04:42
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Electro-Boogie Jack posted:I can freely get around everywhere without a car, to go to a restaurant that's actually just a dumpling stand some lady with a good recipe freely set up on the side of the road. She's free to have a pet cat roaming around that I can play with while I eat. I'm then free to buy a beer and drink it while walking down the street on my way into a pharmacy to buy nearly any medication I want without a prescription. I'm free from the worry of muggings, random acts of public violence, and harassment by the police. I can pretty much walk into any non-government building or area any time I want, and I can keep chickens in the stairwell of my apartment building. I can buy products that are almost exactly the same as more expensive brand name products, because in day to day life I'm mostly free of trademark and copyright restrictions. If I had a 5 year old son I'd be free to choose to not send him to school if I didn't want to, and I could send him down the street to the corner store to buy beer and cigarettes for me and I wouldn't worry about his safety. I'm free to ride the bus without paying and there's nothing they can do to stop me. I can eat cats and dogs if I want, and I could sell weird homemade hornet infused moonshine and nobody would stop me. That's not nearly an exhaustive list of things I can freely do in China that I couldn't do in the US. Van Buren posted:The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).
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Sep 29, 2014 04:43
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It actually is possible to change government policy on the local level. NIMBYism has become a potent political force in Beijing and Shanghai and stopped the Shanghai maglev extension, for example. Not that I'm trying to bolster the PRC REAL FREEDOM argument, mind you.
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Sep 29, 2014 04:48
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Gail Wynand posted:It actually is possible to change government policy on the local level. NIMBYism has become a potent political force in Beijing and Shanghai and stopped the Shanghai maglev extension, for example. No doubt, the issue is that dictatorships are all fun and dandy until its time for economic recession when they become less fun and much less dandy to live on the local level in. I wonder how much food prices in Hong Kong have gone up over the last 10 years
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Sep 29, 2014 04:51
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Fall Sick and Die posted:Yeah but I mean, America being Mexico's biggest trading partner isn't a reason for Mexico to be annexed to the USA. This economic reasoning makes no sense because there's no barrier to capital moving from Taiwan to China at the moment. Taiwanese companies are free to invest as much as they want and even bring a bunch of that money back to Taiwan, live in China, work in China on their companies, run them the way they want. So this is what people mean when they say there's no benefit to this. If the PRC said "Oh hey you can't make money in China anymore unless you rejoin" then a lot of rich people might have some serious thoughts, but right now they have the ability to invest freely in China, their own government, so what's the benefit of return? Apparently some random nebulous people would benefit but, realistically, can someone point to people who would gain something from being a part of the PRC? You're just looking at things right now but there's been a long process towards the current financial and economical state from the reduction of tariffs under the ECFA to allowing say direct shipping and tourist between the two. Reunification would arguably lower the trade and regulatory barriers. There's no doubt that China is pushing after reunification and Taiwan is looking to maintain the status quo but you're looking at the issue just from one side. There's an enormous financial and economic benefit to Taiwan in continuing to receive Chinese investment (not so much when they end up purchasing controlling interests) and China is able to push it's political agenda without having to use it's military. Vegetable posted:I can't see what China has to gain by integrating Hong Kong so forcefully. In 30 years they'll at least be freed by the agreement and be allowed to do whatever they want. I imagine the CCP really doesn't expect these protests to go anywhere. If China can't exert it's power over it's own territories, how is it suppose to exert it's influence on an international stage? I don't know if the majority of Honkies want complete independence though. The economy is tied so closely to China and universal suffrage never existed under the British but people never really complained about it because the standard of living improved so much. Heck I think most people in HK would gladly give up the fight for universal suffrage if it meant restricting immigration from the mainland to pre 97 levels and rules.
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Sep 29, 2014 04:53
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haha did you compare china to caesar's legion in fallout new vegas
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Sep 29, 2014 05:06
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Quick update, pockets of the city are having sit ins. Students have supply stations and main road intersections being blocked. The police basically contained people and letting people do it's thing. Some stores closed and traffic is already diverted. I'm in causeway bay where students held on since last night. Admiralty is getting quiet in terms of crowd but causeway bay is vibrant and getting bigger. More pictures will follow.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:27
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It's not a perfect fit by any means (not the same relentless expansio-well, wait a minute) but there was enough in common with Electro-Boogie Jack's description of "freedom" under the PRC that I couldn't resist.
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Sep 29, 2014 05:28
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Looks like there was a solidarity protest last night in Taipei. About 100 students went to the Hong Kong Trade Office in Taipei and protested outside, then there was an attempt to occupy it, like they did earlier this year when they took over the Legislative Yuan building here. This whole protest seems largely similar to the one in Taipei earlier this year. Is there any talk among the protesters in HK about occupying the new Legco building? It seems impossible, but the students managed it in Taipei, and I have a feeling people in HK could go as far. It just depends on the police response.
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Sep 29, 2014 06:02
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caberham posted:Quick update, pockets of the city are having sit ins. Students have supply stations and main road intersections being blocked. The police basically contained people and letting people do it's thing. Thanks for the updates, caberham! There was some dumb Twitter drama earlier tonight where people were arguing if the 'hands up thing' was inspired by Ferguson or if it was just the universal symbol of, ya know, "don't shoot me." Was there a particular sense of it one way or another on the ground?
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Sep 29, 2014 06:23
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It's just part of nonviolent civil disobedience. They put up their hands not to not get shot, but to make it clear to the police and everyone that there will be no violence.
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Sep 29, 2014 06:33
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I just had to put together an email responding to students, based on several rounds of legal advice from different parts of the Uni (faculty, vice-chancellor, Academic Office, CC Co-ordinator). Fun things like students mentioning that they were seeking to do illegal things and could they have time off please? I wish they'd all just told me "I am doing X instead of coming to your class; I hope you are not a bastard and decide not to fail me" because those I don't need to be careful about putting forward a position that disagrees with the patchwork of constraints I have to act in. But then 2 of 15 students turned up with a stack of pamphlets in their hand, and after hearing that I could not allow them out of class to do other things, said they felt ill and tired, so I let them go. They were willing to make it easy for me to say yes, so I said yes.
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Sep 29, 2014 06:39
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 From the protest in Taipei.
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Sep 29, 2014 07:10
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Back in Admiralty. This morning the crowds are small but now roads are blocked again. Police presence is reduced and no more riot cops. Even front line officers are just manning a few entrances unarmed without shields. Just a few hours and turn out is big. Wonder what will happen tonight.
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Sep 29, 2014 08:09
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caberham posted:Back in Admiralty. This morning the crowds are small but now roads are blocked again. Police presence is reduced and no more riot cops. Even front line officers are just manning a few entrances unarmed without shields. Wait are the crowds big or small right now? Everything you said is in the present tense
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Sep 29, 2014 08:48
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simplefish posted:Wait are the crowds big or small right now? Everything you said is in the present tense Not sure about the other places but there's a big crowd at SOGO. Its apparently just ordinary police at the minute but nobody's sure what will happen tonight.
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Sep 29, 2014 08:53
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I heard internet may be cut.
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Sep 29, 2014 08:58
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They said that last night but I could still get on SA Gonna post this now before it becomes hideously tasteless later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dTnvhGHDGA
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Sep 29, 2014 09:03
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Crowds are bigger than yesterday. In mong kok now. But yeah really big turnout. People are pissed at Hong Kong police. No government announcements or anything besides this morning's token show
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Sep 29, 2014 09:19
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Good, it was looking a little bare at 8am this morning. Well all my students are sorted now, they're pretty much free to go protest if they want.
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Sep 29, 2014 09:29
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http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1603892/clear-skies-over-hong-kong-protesters-stop-traffic-reaching-centralquote:Road blocks set up by pro-democracy protesters might have inconvenienced commuters on Monday morning but the lack of traffic in usually busy districts has reduced air polluition and brought clear skies back to the city. Good for your rights, good for your lungs. Not good for your Leung Chun Yings.
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Sep 29, 2014 09:35
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simplefish posted:Good for your rights, good for your lungs. Not good for your Leung Chun Yings. Seriously though, what do you expect CY to do? He's getting immense pressure from China to sort this out as quickly as possible. He's probably the most hated man in HK now but its not like him stepping down is going to change the status quo. Good luck to the guys heading down there tonight and stay safe! I think there's going to be a much bigger turn out tonight because people are pissssed that the police used tear gas and batons when the protesters weren't even throwing rocks or bottles. Edit: apparently some office buildings are telling their staff to evacuate now. Guess it starts again soon Kegslayer fucked around with this message at 09:58 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 09:52
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simplefish posted:They said that last night but I could still get on SA Its the superjail song! I had no clue that was an actual song.
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Sep 29, 2014 09:57
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Will China let this go on through National Day? I have a sinking feeling that if they're coming down on it, they're going to do it before Oct 1st, so the street are orderly for their big national holiday.
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Sep 29, 2014 12:52
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May I recommend "Not our holiday" signs?
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Sep 29, 2014 13:00
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Discendo Vox posted:It's not a perfect fit by any means (not the same relentless expansio-well, wait a minute) but there was enough in common with Electro-Boogie Jack's description of "freedom" under the PRC that I couldn't resist. Just to be clear, that was Fart Simpson's description, not mine. I called it Manchild Freedom back then, and I think it's looking even shallower now in light of what's going down in Hong Kong.
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Sep 29, 2014 13:24
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Yeah it seems more like libertarian anarchy that benefits you as long as you have enough money to enjoy it (or are young enough that public drinking still seems like a good idea). That said, you probably can find similar "freedom" in most developing countries.
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Sep 29, 2014 13:32
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Kegslayer posted:Seriously though, what do you expect CY to do? He's getting immense pressure from China to sort this out as quickly as possible. If only CY had the balls to tell Beijing to shove it or at the very least pay lip service and go rogue like so many local government officials in China love doing for their own self interests. Even with this bullshit NPC decree, it would still be possible for the government to propose in their consultation the possibility of greatly expanding the electoral base that elects members of the Nominating Committee. With a little bit of creativity, it's possible to ensure every registered voter in HK has a vote to elect members of the Nominating Committee while still complying with the "four equal sectors" and "50% nomination threshold" requirements. But CY doesn't have the balls to do that. He's not a leader. iceaim fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 13:36
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Can we just like, ignore MeramJert's CHINESE FREEDOM fuckery posts? He's actually half trolling you guys '
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Sep 29, 2014 13:36
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Been avidly following this thread for a while and thoroughly enjoy the insights, but please, be safe out there.
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Sep 29, 2014 14:11
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iceaim posted:If only CY had the balls to tell Beijing to shove it or at the very least pay lip service and go rogue like so many local government officials in China love doing for their own self interests. And then CY would quickly get replaced by the election committee with someone more favourable to China. The current election system and Legco is so stacked and pro mainland that it's impossible for any meaningful change to be enacted without the approval of Beijing. I'm not defending CY's character but I seriously don't see anything he or anyone in his position can do. He's just one man used as a scapegoat for all the poo poo China is pulling.
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Sep 29, 2014 14:15
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Kegslayer posted:And then CY would quickly get replaced by the election committee with someone more favourable to China. The current election system and Legco is so stacked and pro mainland that it's impossible for any meaningful change to be enacted without the approval of Beijing. Technically speaking, if CY decided to go rogue, Beijing has no legal mechanism to dismiss CY with except through impeachment. But that would have to be initiated by a Beijing loyalist in Legco rather than from the top by Beijing and could be very difficult to control as a result. Tung got sacked because he was loyal to Beijing and accepted the face saving CPPCC appointment and then resigned for "health reasons". A Chief Executive that goes rogue won't do this. Anyway chances of CY going rogue are practically nill. In the end he'll suck up to Beijing rather than be in solidarity with the HK people. Also you have a good point that if there even were a hypothetical situation where CY greatly expands the electoral base of the Nominating Committee against Beijing's wishes, then the Beijing loyalists in Legco would act as the veto rather than the democrats. iceaim fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Sep 29, 2014 |
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Sep 29, 2014 14:33
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbuL84x_SZU (where's our Hong Kong flag?)
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Sep 29, 2014 14:46
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It's been a long day, I was in Admiralty this early morning, Causeway Bay afternoon, walked to Central, and then went to Mong Kok taking pictures and helping out with small things here and there. This early morning felt really really weird, like 28 days in a zombie movie. The streets were practically empty and surreal. Then during lunch time, a small crowd of people and people from last night were in Causeway Bay but even as I arrived truckloads of water, ponchos, supplies, and yellow ribbons were ready. People were already volunteering with clean up, distributing goods, etc. The crowds were organized and a small pathway was left out for people walking by and easy access for medical teams. It was kind of funny to see Causeway Bay had the Sogo open and mainland tourists gawking us and protesters doing their thing at the same time. Some stores were open, and some were closed. I met up with Bloodnose and we walked towards Admiralty after a quick stop in Wanchai. Admiralty, this morning was dead quiet, but by noon people swelled up and people were gathering in front of the government head quarters. However, unlike yesterday, cops have de escalated their numbers and force. Thankfully, even the officers guarding the entrances looked like regular uniform unarmed officers. I'm so glad to see less confrontation. Maybe they learned not to agitate the people unlike the HK SAR. After Admiralty, we walked to Central and took a metro to Mong Kok. Perhaps it was the time of the day, school was already out and we saw some secondary school kids gathering around with yellow ribbons. The intersection of the busiest street nathan road and Argyle road got blocked and there was a makeshift tent, with speaker. I also saw Claudia Mo of the Civic Party giving a speech but the current situation and that China won't let its grip when Nobel Peace Prize winners get house-arrest or jailed. By this time Bloodnose went home and I took a train back to Admiralty to see how things were and maybe walk home. I was surprised by an even bigger turn out of not just students but everyone. From Central to Wanchai, Gloucester road was filled with a sea of people. Yet things were in order, you still see aid stations being set up and inspected, cleaning crews, people distributing things etc. I heard a guy on a loud speaker needing help moving stuff to Wanchai so I volunteered myself to carry a huge box of water bottles and ponchos. Being the unabashed gooony social person I am, I asked some nearby strangers to be volunteers and everyone just wanted to help. Yeah it was a long day playing water boy and relaying the message of which camp needed what. The only flag we are flying right now is the HK one. No old colonial, no British, no KMT stuff. It's solidarity for what was promised to us under one country two systems. A system where all Hong Kongers can take part in fair elections. We don't want guranteed Civic, FTU, Democrat or whatever seats. Or any bias. Let us vote and nominate the Chief Executive. Not even the local political parties are flying any loving flags because this movement is bigger than any of us. We are partaking in civil disobedience and being good citizens of society We may love or loving hate China but for what it's worth, we just want what is promised to us and we have waited over 15 years for this 我是一個香港人。 (I am a Hong Konger) I'm really proud of the people in this city. This is really peaceful and dare I say, even HARMONIUS. Pictures in next post
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Sep 29, 2014 15:01
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