Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

I always liked how the Door of Moria was invisible so the Elves were nice enough to graffiti on it one day so people would know where they were going.

# ? Aug 12, 2019 22:33

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# ? Jun 12, 2024 06:46

Pham Nuwen: Oct 30, 2010

skasion posted:

Gandalf the Grey and even Gandalf the White don�t have 100% of the powers, knowledge, feelings etc that their spirit possessed when it was among the Maiar of Valinor. �Olorin I was in my youth in the west that is forgotten.� Actually, Gandalf�s incarnation is old as hell and there�s a couple times he complains of memory problems. He used to know every spell to open doors but now he only knows a couple hundred. He cannot remember the route through Moria precisely and needs to trust his instincts. Most interesting to me, he wishes to look in the palantir � not to see anything that would be useful to him at the moment, but so that he can see F�anor working in Tirion in the years of the Trees.

While I agree that Gandalf seems to be definitely limited by his incarnation, I have always taken that quote to mean that the West is forgotten, not his youth, and that neither are forgotten by him. Of course the Elves haven't forgotten the West either since like 50% of their songs are about the Trees and Elbereth, so I guess he means Men (besides Numenoreans) and thus Hobbits have forgotten about Valinor.

# ? Aug 12, 2019 22:35

sat on my keys!: Oct 2, 2014

Pham Nuwen posted:

While I agree that Gandalf seems to be definitely limited by his incarnation, I have always taken that quote to mean that the West is forgotten, not his youth, and that neither are forgotten by him. Of course the Elves haven't forgotten the West either since like 50% of their songs are about the Trees and Elbereth, so I guess he means Men (besides Numenoreans) and thus Hobbits have forgotten about Valinor.

It can also mean that the West as an abstract concept is remembered, but what it was actually like is forgotten. The Elves sing lots of songs about the light of the Trees but only a few left in Middle Earth actually saw them.

# ? Aug 12, 2019 22:50

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Arcsquad12 posted:

I always liked how the Door of Moria was invisible so the Elves were nice enough to graffiti on it one day so people would know where they were going.

Classic elves

# ? Aug 12, 2019 23:50

sassassin: Apr 3, 2010; by Azathoth

Gandalf is a hedge wizard who claims a divine mandate to get into all the cool clubs. Of course he's going to say that God was behind everything.

# ? Aug 13, 2019 23:46

Nessus: Dec 22, 2003; After a Speaker vote, you may be entitled to a valuable coupon or voucher!

sassassin posted:

Gandalf is a hedge wizard who claims a divine mandate to get into all the cool clubs. Of course he's going to say that God was behind everything.

This post is insufficiently condemnatory to the greybeard, I'm reporting you to the eye for ideological correction.

There's an interesting parallel between the little notes of fortune which seem to get read by people in the setting as the acts of God, if not in so many words, and the bullshit the Ring pulled throughout history with falling off fingers and so forth.

# ? Aug 14, 2019 00:02

Zippy the Bummer: Dec 14, 2008; Silent Majority
The Don
LORD COMMANDER OF THE UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES

Could Tom Bombadil have punched 1,000 adult male chimpazees to death if they all attacked him at once?

# ? Aug 14, 2019 09:58

Alhazred: Feb 16, 2011

Zippy the Bummer posted:

Could Tom Bombadil have punched 1,000 adult male chimpazees to death if they all attacked him at once?

He could, but he would probably just sing to them instead.

# ? Aug 14, 2019 11:24

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZouiWmzWoY

# ? Aug 14, 2019 13:44

hannibal: Jul 27, 2001; [img-planes]

Gandalf himself talks about chance in Unfinished Tales where�s he describing how he met Thorin in Bree.

quote:

��It might all have gone very differently indeed. The main attack was diverted southwards, it is true; and yet even so with his far-stretched right hand Sauron could have done terrible harm in the North, while we defended Gondor, if King Brand and King D�in had not stood in his path. When you think of the great Battle of Pelennor, do not forget the Battle of Dale. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador! There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now only hope to return from the victory here to ruin and ash. But that has been averted�because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring not far from Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.��

There�s also a bit about their bodies - they were originally Maiar, like Sauron.

quote:

�But none of these chances were impossible to be; for, strange indeed though this may seem, the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle-earth, might even as Men and Elves fall away from their purposes, and do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to effect it.

A separate passage written in the margin no doubt belongs here: For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.�

# ? Aug 15, 2019 02:19

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

normally i keep politics out of the tolkien thread but

https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1068570213073903616

# ? Aug 20, 2019 02:27

Arc Hammer: Mar 4, 2013; Got any deathsticks?

Not really book related, but does anyone know if there's a way to buy the Costa Botes documentaries for the film trilogy without needing to track down the hard to find limited edition DVDs?

# ? Aug 20, 2019 05:19

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

So who-all's seen the Tolkien movie?

I thought it was really excellent, way better than the trailer with its on-the-nose chopped-together dialogue made it seem. The focus on language (which doesn't hold the audience's hand at all) was a wonderful surprise, and so were the visual references strewn throughout it which served as the best kind of fanservice�the kind you wouldn't even recognize if you weren't a total nerd.

The cellar door segment was kinda brilliant, and the fact that they actually used Eala Earendel engla beorhtast in dialogue put it way over the top for me.

The ending was kinda weak and thematically dissonant, but everything up to that point was really great I thought. And though I suppose I might have liked a bit more of his self-deprecation and utter lack of ego that is at the center of why I like him so much, the characterization seemed spot-on from what I know.

# ? Aug 24, 2019 02:46

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

I haven't seen it- good to hear it's worth catching, though.

# ? Sep 2, 2019 07:07

Tree Bucket: Apr 1, 2016; R.I.P.idura leucophrys

And lo, from that time, Feanor was cursed to have a wife with a really stupid name

# ? Oct 19, 2019 04:21

Gimmedaroot: Aug 10, 2006; America and Islam are not exclusive and need not be in competition. Instead, they overlap, and share common principles of justice and progress, tolerance and the dignity of all human beings.
-Barack Obama

skasion posted:

Then on Mt Doom Frodo, in distress under the influence of the Ring and the need to face Gollum�s return and betrayal, begins to command Gollum.

This is the moment when Frodo�s will falls to the Ring and he is no longer capable of destroying it: he still goes on to the crack of doom, but he has now used it to command another person. The Ring speaks his words, dominating Gollum�s will. But Gollum�s desire for the Ring remains, and he does touch the Ring/Frodo again, and he is cast into the fire. Frodo�s moment of personal moral ruin is what causes the destruction of the Ring.

Funny how the Rankin/Bass cartoon I saw as a small child actually got that right (minus the white robes and ring of fire vision). I was pretty upset that this wasn't depicted in PJ's ROTK, along with the way the ring was destroyed. This was my introduction to fantasy and I was hooked; it aired on TV and my dad recorded it on VHS when it first aired on ABC. For some reason it impressed me more than EST (which came out the same year). It was so unlike any "fairy tale" I had ever come across. Read those books voraciously, then the D&D craze of the early 80s was in full blast...

# ? Oct 21, 2019 21:57

100YrsofAttitude: Apr 29, 2013

Very excited the Biblioth�que Nationale Fran�ois Mitt�rand in Paris is getting a Tolkien exhibition Journey to Middle-earth. I wonder if it's like the one that was in NYC? It's running through to February so I'll definitely grab a chance to check it out.

# ? Oct 28, 2019 19:33

YaketySass: Jan 15, 2019; Blind Idiot Dog

100YrsofAttitude posted:

Very excited the Biblioth�que Nationale Fran�ois Mitt�rand in Paris is getting a Tolkien exhibition Journey to Middle-earth. I wonder if it's like the one that was in NYC? It's running through to February so I'll definitely grab a chance to check it out.

I saw it two days ago, it seemed pretty similar from what I can tell from the NYC pictures, maybe a bit smaller. Lots of people though, had to wait more than one hour and a half to enter the exhibit.

# ? Oct 30, 2019 08:23

100YrsofAttitude: Apr 29, 2013

YaketySass posted:

I saw it two days ago, it seemed pretty similar from what I can tell from the NYC pictures, maybe a bit smaller. Lots of people though, had to wait more than one hour and a half to enter the exhibit.

The trick will be to wait for not a school holiday and to go closer to the end of the exhibit but not so close that it's the last minute panic rush. So early December or mid-January.

# ? Oct 30, 2019 08:26

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Just listened to approximately 8 hours of podcasting on the poem Earendil is a Mariner

Conclusion: it is a very good poem but I�m not mad at myself for skipping the poems for years. poo poo it dense

# ? Nov 5, 2019 19:46

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

I read the poems but skip the podcast episodes about them, has he finally got done with it?

The best �E�rendil was a mariner� fact is that the version in Fellowship as published is a draft version thrown in as the book was going to printing because Tolkien lost his manuscript of the finished poem and couldn�t find it again till the 60s

# ? Nov 5, 2019 20:10

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

Wasn't there an updated version of LotR published fairly recently that fixed a number of the publication errors that were discovered during the writing of the History of Middle-Earth?

# ? Nov 5, 2019 20:12

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

skasion posted:

I read the poems but skip the podcast episodes about them, has he finally got done with it?

The best �E�rendil was a mariner� fact is that the version in Fellowship as published is a draft version thrown in as the book was going to printing because Tolkien lost his manuscript of the finished poem and couldn�t find it again till the 60s

Nothing different : scanning , identifying the rhymes, analyzing the syntax , then understanding the meaning w in context of Many Meetings.

I like the last stanza a lot

And over Middle-earth he passed
and heard at last the weeping sore
of women and of elven-maids
in Elder Days, in years of yore.
But on him mighty doom was laid,
till Moon should fade, an orb�d star
to pass, and tarry never more
on Hither Shores where mortals are;
for ever still a herald on
an errand that should never rest
to bear his shining lamp afar,
the Flammifer of Westernesse.

Bilbo is pretty good at poems !!

# ? Nov 5, 2019 20:16

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

cheetah7071 posted:

Wasn't there an updated version of LotR published fairly recently that fixed a number of the publication errors that were discovered during the writing of the History of Middle-Earth?

There�s a 50th and a 60th anniversary edition both of which fix some problems, but to my knowledge no published version of LOTR contains the added stanza �In might the Fe�norians...� from the version that Christopher identified in THoME as finished.

skasion fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Nov 5, 2019

# ? Nov 5, 2019 20:18

Ynglaur: Oct 9, 2013; The Malta Conference, anyone?

I really wish they'd hurry up and get those In ebook format. I didn't know there was a different / more complete version of that poem.

# ? Nov 5, 2019 22:17

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

Tolkien Professor is going to go through 4 earendil poem early versions soon if you want to follow along

# ? Nov 5, 2019 22:19

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Ynglaur posted:

I really wish they'd hurry up and get those In ebook format. I didn't know there was a different / more complete version of that poem.

Since that probably won�t be happening any time soon, here it is:

quote:

E�rendil was a mariner
that tarried in Arvernien:
he built a boat of timber felled
in Nimbrethil to journey in.
Her sails he wove of silver fair,
with silver were her banners sewn;
her prow he fashioned like the swans
that white upon the Falas roam.

His coat that came from ancient kings
of chained rings was forged of old;
his shining shield all wounds defied
with runes entwined of dwarven gold.
His bow was made of dragon-horn,
his arrows shorn of ebony,
of triple steel his habergeon,
his scabbard of chalcedony;
his sword was like a flame in sheath,
with gems was wreathed his helmet tall,
an eagle-plume upon his crest,
upon his breast an emerald.

Beneath the moon and under star
he wandered far from northern strands,
bewildered on enchanted ways
beyond the days of mortal lands.
From gnashing of the Narrow Ice
where shadow lies on frozen hills,
from nether heats and burning waste
he turned in haste, and roving still
on starless waters far astray
at last he came to Night of Naught,
and passed, and never sight he saw
of shining shore or light he sought.
The winds of fear came driving him,
and blindly in the foam he fled
from west to east, and errandless,
unheralded, he homeward sped.

In might the Fe�norians
that swore the unforgotten oath
brought war into Arvernien
with burning and with broken troth;
and Elwing from her fastness dim
then cast her in the waters wide,
but like a mew was swiftly borne,
uplifted o�er the roaring tide.
Through hopeless night she came to him,
and flame was in the darkness lit,
more bright than light of diamond
the fire upon her carcanet.
The Silmaril she bound on him,
and crowned him with the living light,
and dauntless then with burning brow
he turned his prow at middle-night.
Beyond the world, beyond the Sea,
then free and strong a storm arose,
a wind of power in Tarmenel;
by paths that seldom mortal goes
from Middle-earth on mighty breath
as flying wraith across the grey
and long-forsaken seas distressed
from East to West he passed away.

Through Evernight he back was borne
on black and roaring waves that ran
o�er leagues unlit and foundered shores
that drowned before the Days began,
until he heard on strands of pearl
where ends the world the music long,
where ever-foaming billows roll
the yellow gold and jewels wan.
He saw the mountain silent rise
where twilight lies upon the knees
of Valinor, and Eldamar
beheld afar beyond the seas.
A wanderer escaped from night
to haven white he came at last,
to Elvenhome the green and fair
where keen the air, where pale as glass
beneath the Hill of Ilmarin
a-glimmer in a valley sheer
the lamplit towers of Tirion
are mirrored on the Shadowmere.

He tarried there from errantry,
and melodies they taught to him,
and sages old him marvels told,
and harps of gold they brought to him.
They clothed him then in elven-white,
and seven lights before him sent,
as through the Calacirian
to hidden land forlorn he went.
He came unto the timeless halls,
where shining fall the countless years,
and endless reigns the Elder King,
forever king on mountain sheer;
and words unheard were spoken then
of folk of Men and Elven-kin,
beyond the world were visions showed
forbid to those that dwell therein.

A ship then new they built for him
of mithril and of elvenglass
with crystal keel; no shaven oar
nor sail she bore, on silver mast
the Silmaril as lantern light
and banner bright with living flame
of fire unstained by Elbereth
herself was set, who thither came
and wings immortal made for him,
and laid on him undying doom
to sail the shoreless skies and come
behind the Sun and light of Moon.

From Evereven�s lofty hills
where softly silver fountains fall
his wings him bore, a wandering light,
beyond the mighty Mountain Wall.
From World�s End then he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star
on high above the mists he came,
a distant flame before the Sun,
a wonder ere the waking dawn
where grey the Norland waters run.

And over Middle-earth he passed
and heard at last the weeping sore
of women and of elven-maids
in Elder Days, in years of yore.
But on him mighty doom was laid,
till Moon should fade, an orb�d star,
to pass, and tarry nevermore
on Hither Shores where mortals are;
till end of Days on errand high,
a herald bright that never rests,
to bear his burning lamp afar,
the Flammifer of Westernesse.

I like the bit about the Fe�norians and the escape of Elwing but �Elder King/forever king� and the slightly different ending weirds me out.

# ? Nov 5, 2019 22:24

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I can understand not adding in Feanorians at that part of LOTR.

Also if Bilbo would have the chutzpah to bring up the feanorians in the Hall of Fire in Elronds house.

# ? Nov 5, 2019 22:34

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

The entire Earendil poem and the scene surrounding it is fairly incomprehensible with just the context LotR gives you, especially on a first read, and I can't imagine talking about Feanorians would make it any harder to follow than it already is

# ? Nov 5, 2019 22:35

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

euphronius posted:

I can understand not adding in Feanorians at that part of LOTR.

Also if Bilbo would have the chutzpah to bring up the feanorians in the Hall of Fire if Elronds house.

Tbf Aragorn does tell him he�s being a cheeky fucker by singing the song at all. Might as well be hanged for a sheep.

# ? Nov 5, 2019 22:36

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

The only new thing is Earendil iirc. Elbereth has already been mentioned.

I guess someone in the 1950s would have no idea what a silmaril was.

# ? Nov 5, 2019 22:38

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

skasion posted:

Tbf Aragorn does tell him he�s being a cheeky fucker by singing the song at all. Might as well be hanged for a sheep.

I think it works as mortal�s reflection on the nature of fate (doom) and how it doesn�t always work out perfectly in the end right before the next chapter (council of Elrond) especially since Aragorn stands in as the Flammifer maybe in Bilbos mind

# ? Nov 5, 2019 22:41

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

euphronius posted:

The only new thing is Earendil iirc. Elbereth has already been mentioned.

I guess someone in the 1950s would have no idea what a silmaril was.

E�rendil and the voyage with the Silmaril were already mentioned in Aragorn�s short short version of the Elder Days at Weathertop camp. The poem is the first occurrence of �Valinor� or �Eldamar� though a close reader might associate the latter with �Elvenhome� previously mentioned in the Lay of Leithian excerpt. �Arvernien�, �Nimbrethil�, �Ilmarin�, �Tirion�, �Tarmenel�, �Calacirian� are all new and quite mysterious. The �Elder King� is new and not explained till the appendix. Only �Westernesse� has already been thoroughly explained.

# ? Nov 5, 2019 22:45

Data Graham: Dec 28, 2009; 📈📊🍪😋

Weren't Arvernien and Nimbrethil in the published poem?

# ? Nov 5, 2019 22:56

skasion: Feb 13, 2012; Why don't you perform zazen, facing a wall?

Data Graham posted:

Weren't Arvernien and Nimbrethil in the published poem?

Oh yeah, all the ones I mention there are. My point is more that it�s just a poem full of weird new things regardless. One more weird new thing would hardly have tipped the balance.

# ? Nov 5, 2019 23:03

Ginette Reno: Nov 18, 2006; How Doers get more done; Fun Shoe

cheetah7071 posted:

The entire Earendil poem and the scene surrounding it is fairly incomprehensible with just the context LotR gives you, especially on a first read, and I can't imagine talking about Feanorians would make it any harder to follow than it already is

I can understand why some people would be frustrated by that but I like that Tolkien just throws lore bombs at you and doesn't always give you the background to fully appreciate or understand them. For me that adds to the wonder of the world. There's so many people and places and things I want to know more about with that universe but I'm left to wonder.

# ? Nov 7, 2019 19:24

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

I don�t think simple place names are a real stumbling block. Names of people or angels or whatever are much more important and we know who everyone is in that poem

Maybe not Elwing

In fact the poem used tons of passive voice to elude naming angels and elfs and stuff

However this is all me being dumb because I didn�t even read the poems for 25 years

# ? Nov 7, 2019 19:27

cheetah7071: Oct 20, 2010; honk honk; College Slice

The main part I remember thinking "this makes no sense without the Silmarillion" is the exchange where Aragorn calls Bilbo cheeky for writing a poem about Earendil in Elrond's house. Though maybe Elrond's parentage is mentioned in a throwaway line I forgot

# ? Nov 7, 2019 19:39

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

�So it was indeed,� answered Elrond gravely. �But my memory reaches back even to the Elder Days. E�rendil was my sire, who was born in Gondolin before its fall; and my mother was Elwing, daughter of Dior, son of L�thien of Doriath. I have seen three ages in the West of the world, and many defeats, and many fruitless victories.

��

There like 10 pages after the poem

# ? Nov 7, 2019 19:48

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# ? Jun 12, 2024 06:46

euphronius: Feb 18, 2009

https://twitter.com/41strange/status/1192954581732323329?s=21

# ? Nov 9, 2019 00:59

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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