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Bust Rodd posted:You’re basically arguing that Micheal Jackson I'm sorry is your example of "so famous that racism can't affect him" really going to be Michael "White People Have Been Obsessed With Smearing My Name For Thirty Years" Jackson
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Mar 21, 2021 05:47
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 06:39 |
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Bust Rodd posted:What in the entire MCU leads you to believe that they aren’t world famous celebrities on a level we don’t have in the real world? Do you really think actual real life superheroes wouldn’t be as famous as movie stars and athletes? Think about how famous they are on OUR earth, where they aren’t even real! You honestly think these people would have gigantic, obsessive cult like fan followings if they really existed? Sam was a military asset (not famous), then he was helping veterans (not famous), then he was Captain America’s sidekick (kinda famous but also not anywhere near as recognisable as the Captain plus not from world war 2 not a super soldier so who cares), then he was a criminal (and explicitly tried to stay hidden, plus I cannot imagine the American Government was particularly happy to put Captain America, international fugitive, on the news), then he was dusted and returned to a fight that whilst big was not televised, and now he’s back to being a semi-covert military operative. He’s famous amongst military sure, but to the average person he’s probably not recognisable (in fact we see someone fail to recognise him) outside the suit. All of which has nothing to do with the fact the bank won’t give him and his sister a loan because they are black and can use a technicality to do so. He’s probably less famous than Barack Obama, honestly I’d say he’s as famous as a mid-level WWE wrestler, if you follow the scene you know him but otherwise you’re vaguely aware he exists but need to be prompted to recognise him. Open Source Idiom posted:It's a civilian family. Neat, so a Tunisian civilian family recognised the Falcon easier than an American citizen. That’s a good subtle show of the whole deal with Sam so far is that he is being mistreated by his own country on a systematic (the bank) and idealogical (the new Captain America) level, which is of course the point. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 05:55 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 05:49
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Bleck posted:I do not know how else it needs to be explained to you that fame does not render black people invulnerable to racism in the United States of America Case in point. https://www.npr.org/2021/03/06/974362036/this-is-the-reality-of-black-girls-inauguration-poet-says-she-was-tailed-by-guar
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Mar 21, 2021 05:53
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Lord_Magmar posted:Sam was a military asset (not famous), then he was helping veterans (not famous), then he was Captain America’s sidekick (kinda famous but also not anywhere near as recognisable as the Captain plus not from world war 2 not a super soldier so who cares), then he was a criminal (and explicitly tried to stay hidden, plus I cannot imagine the American Government was particularly happy to put Captain America, international fugitive, on the news), then he was dusted and returned to a fight that whilst big was not televised, and now he’s back to being a semi-covert military operative. All classified information was leaked on the Avengers during Winter Solider. That combined with what the Avengers have done, there is no way they aren't all extremely famous.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:55
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Spacebump posted:All classified information was leaked on the Avengers during Winter Solider. That combined with what the Avengers have done, there is no way they aren't all extremely famous. Sam was not an Avenger in the Winter Soldier he was still an American Military Asset who was deciding to help Veterans after finishing his tour of duty. His information was not leaked and after Winter Soldier the Avengers appear to have ended up being pay-rolled by Tony Stark and continued to act as international pseudo-covert operations.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:57
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Spacebump posted:All classified information was leaked on the Avengers during Winter Solider. That combined with what the Avengers have done, there is no way they aren't all extremely famous. hmm I wonder why they would specifically show the black avenger as not immediately worshipped in the United States Of America, compared to, uh, all of the white ones. hmm why would they do that I wonder? a mystery,
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Mar 21, 2021 05:58
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Ok, I guess we’re just meant to assume that Sam has absolutely no cache and no friends who could possibly help. No military assets, no SHIELD contacts, no STARK industries allies, no nothing. He’s just a black guy on paper with absolutely nothing of value or importance, the same as anyone else, just a regular guy who can’t co sign a bank loan. That’s perfectly believable and not at all hokey and contrived. This is good writing that accurately reflects how the real world works.
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Mar 21, 2021 05:59
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Bust Rodd posted:accurately reflects how the real world works. Bleck posted:people here keep saying "I don't think anyone is denying racism" in between constant repeated denials of a very basic and observable facet of racism
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Mar 21, 2021 06:01
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Marsupial Ape posted:This is indicative of his wealth, but seeing Sam iron his own shirt in a hotel room immediately grounded the character for me. Small details. This is very much a military officer thing to me.
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Mar 21, 2021 06:03
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Bust Rodd posted:Ok, I guess we’re just meant to assume that Sam has absolutely no cache and no friends who could possibly help. No military assets, no SHIELD contacts, no STARK industries allies, no nothing. He’s just a black guy on paper with absolutely nothing of value or importance, the same as anyone else, just a regular guy who can’t co sign a bank loan. That’s perfectly believable and not at all hokey and contrived. This is good writing that accurately reflects how the real world works. Sarah: "We made a deal before Daddy died. You're out there. I do things my way here." Sam: "Alright but what if I call up THE ARMY TO HELP YOU"
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Mar 21, 2021 06:07
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Bust Rodd posted:Ok, I guess we’re just meant to assume that Sam has absolutely no cache and no friends who could possibly help. No military assets, no SHIELD contacts, no STARK industries allies, no nothing. He’s just a black guy on paper with absolutely nothing of value or importance, the same as anyone else, just a regular guy who can’t co sign a bank loan. That’s perfectly believable and not at all hokey and contrived. This is good writing that accurately reflects how the real world works. Again, Sam’s ability to get money is not in question, the bank acknowledges he can get money and denies him the co-sign loan anyway. His sister doesn’t want his money, she wants to be self-sufficient, her compromise was going to the bank and letting him help her get a loan that she can pay back, and he’s simply so the bank will give her a loan at all. Then the bank does not give them both a loan, because they are experiencing systematic racism where Sam’s actual income means jackshit.
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Mar 21, 2021 06:08
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It's two people with no income no assets and no credit history trying to get a small business loan. Being turned down is pretty much "working as expected". Sure, in the real world if Sam wanted to he could be Captain Amazing and have sponsorships plastered on his uniform and be independently wealthy, in the Marvel universe he's basically unemployed. Honestly for me the bank scene was more him realizing that Being passed over for the new captain job makes me far more upset for him
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Mar 21, 2021 06:12
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BrianWilly posted:What part of "Sarah doesn't want Sam's charity" is just flying right past you? Like a falcon, as it were. Ok but when she goes “will you co-sign a loan for me” why doesn’t he call up, like, Happy or one of his old Shield handlers to just do it for him? If they characterize Sam as explicitly avoiding using the benefits of being an Avenger then fine, but if that’s not the case then he’s just behaving the way a normal person would, not the way one of the most connected and influential operators on the planet would act, and that’s the part that’s falling past me. Not the racism, not the insistence from his sister, the fact that he just goes to the bank like a regular guy and fills out a regular form. Like if it were me, at the absolute very least I’d be like “uh, you should Google me, yeah that’s me fighting aliens with Captain America on the cover of TIME magazine, that’s me having lunch with the king of Wakanda”. Instead he just goes “aw shucks, well, we tried everything we could think of, oh well, back to my totally normal job with literally zero benefits or personal contacts”
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Mar 21, 2021 06:13
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Bust Rodd posted:Ok but when she goes “will you co-sign a loan for me” why doesn’t he call up, like, Happy or one of his old Shield handlers to just do it for him? "surely being friends with rich people means they just give you free money all the time"
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Mar 21, 2021 06:16
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"Why doesn't the black guy just beg his white friends for money?" ~ totally normal, not-racist question
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Mar 21, 2021 06:19
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“If it were me“ isn’t the ultimate lens for watching a TV show, where characters are different from you with different morals, life experiences and circumstances
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Mar 21, 2021 06:20
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After the scene, Sam says he will go to other banks and his sister believes that their experience will be the same. This is also a mirror of how their circumstances affect their view of race relations and systemic power. She hasn’t teamed up with billionaires to fight aliens, and mocks him for doing so.
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Mar 21, 2021 06:21
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Bust Rodd posted:Ok but when she goes “will you co-sign a loan for me” why doesn’t he call up, like, Happy or one of his old Shield handlers to just do it for him? Because he’s a grown-rear end adult with dignity and self-respect?
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Mar 21, 2021 06:23
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Golden Bee posted:After the scene, Sam says he will go to other banks and his sister believes that their experience will be the same. This is also a mirror of how their circumstances affect their view of race relations and systemic power. She hasn’t teamed up with billionaires to fight aliens, and mocks him for doing so. He also likely would eventually offer to go through his contacts if she’ll allow it, but the whole point is him helping her get money, not he himself getting money. Marsupial Ape posted:Because he’s a grown-rear end adult with dignity and self-respect? Also this, he should absolutely be able to get a loan, he’s capable of paying it back in full with a few months of interest, he’s here effectively to help his in debt sister get a loan that he can promise the bank if she cannot pay it back he will. The fact that this is not enough to secure a loan, is intended to be gross and wrong. That’s why it’s systematic racism. If this was Captain America trying to do the same thing for Bucky Barnes he would have gotten the loan no questions asked, the fact Sam does not is intended to be bullshit. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 06:28 on Mar 21, 2021 |
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Mar 21, 2021 06:23
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Bar Ran Dun posted:This is very much a military officer thing to me. I meant to type “not indicative”. My brain is becoming Swiss cheese.
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Mar 21, 2021 06:26
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Golden Bee posted:After the scene, Sam says he will go to other banks and his sister believes that their experience will be the same. This is also a mirror of how their circumstances affect their view of race relations and systemic power. She hasn’t teamed up with billionaires to fight aliens, and mocks him for doing so. Yeah this line goes by quick but it's important and if you've been hit by institutional roadblocks (and had your close friends/family react in different ways) it felt real.
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Mar 21, 2021 06:28
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Note also that selling the boat isn't exactly the end of the world for Sarah. She had already resigned herself to the fact that it was the right decision; it's probably a legitimate drag on her finances and might not actually be profitable even after renovations. The only reason they want to try to save it now is because of its sentimental value, and that Sam hasn't had five years to come to terms with letting it go, or five years being let down by the system. One might conceivably even argue that the bank is not technically in the wrong for not wanting to bet on them being able to turn the boat into a profit considering that it hasn't been profitable before now, but this is where the racism comes in: a white family might very well be allowed that risk. A white family might well be given the opportunity to fail upwards where a bank would otherwise just cut its losses. It's a snap judgment that they make based entirely on the skin color of their clients. That's the insidious part.
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Mar 21, 2021 06:36
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Does anyone else think they made a mistake in not hiring Anthony Starr for fake Captain America?
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Mar 21, 2021 06:40
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No because distracting meta-poo poo like that only works in very rare cases like Evan Peters ralphing on your Bohner.
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Mar 21, 2021 06:48
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It's the same reason we don't eat a quarter pound of cake and chocolate for breakfast as adults even though we can-- sure it feels great in the moment but all you're really doing is loving up your body for the rest of the day.
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Mar 21, 2021 06:49
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Lord_Magmar posted:Sam was not an Avenger in the Winter Soldier he was still an American Military Asset who was deciding to help Veterans after finishing his tour of duty. His information was not leaked and after Winter Soldier the Avengers appear to have ended up being pay-rolled by Tony Stark and continued to act as international pseudo-covert operations. He 100% was an Avenger at the end of Age of Ultron for ?? years until Civil War.
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Mar 21, 2021 07:03
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socialsecurity posted:He 100% was an Avenger at the end of Age of Ultron for ?? years until Civil War. Yes, which is after Winter Soldier (the movie in which all the Avengers information was leaked) which was the thing I was specifying. His work as an Avenger is after the information was leaked, which is the bit where they become pay-rolled by Tony Stark as international peacekeeping. Which I doubt Tony Stark would let the information of their work be easily accessible except for specific marketing purposes or when dealing with militaries and governments. So sure Sam is an Avenger, and known as such, but I imagine he's remembered about as much as Hawkeye by the public. Kind of cool but not as cool and popular and famous as literal super billionaire Tony Stark who builds his own suits, or the living legend Captain America, or the Norse God Hunk Thor, or the Harlem Shattering Hulk (Bruce Banner is likely less remembered).
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Mar 21, 2021 07:09
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Lord_Magmar posted:Yes, which is after Winter Soldier (the movie in which all the Avengers information was leaked) which was the thing I was specifying. His work as an Avenger is after the information was leaked, which is the bit where they become pay-rolled by Tony Stark as international peacekeeping. Which I doubt Tony Stark would let the information of their work be easily accessible except for specific marketing purposes or when dealing with militaries and governments. So sure Sam is an Avenger, and known as such, but I imagine he's remembered about as much as Hawkeye by the public. Kind of cool but not as cool and popular and famous as literal super billionaire Tony Stark who builds his own suits, or the living legend Captain America, or the Norse God Hunk Thor, or the Harlem Shattering Hulk (Bruce Banner is likely less remembered). this is a frustrating conversation lol he probably had some money he probably wasn't insanely rich but his sister didn't want his money so he offered to help co sign a loan ah yes but he was actually well off and would have totally got the loan or could have helped by buying the boat yes he probably had some money though he probably wasn't insanely rich but his sister didn't want his money so he offered to help co sign a loan but he was actually well off and would have totally got the loan or could have helped by buying the boat
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Mar 21, 2021 07:21
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I would like to point out that this is the first God damned episode.
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Mar 21, 2021 07:23
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Lammasu posted:I would like to point out that this is the first God damned episode. sweet mother o'mercy
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Mar 21, 2021 07:25
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Yeah they’ve been doing pretty drat well ain’t they. Basically since the start of WandaVision I’ve been checking this thread all the drat time.
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Mar 21, 2021 07:36
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I was a little annoyed by the sister. First she was too proud to take the money, even though she knew Sam cared about the boat, and then she got angry with him for being away while he was saving the world. She was also the second person in the episode, who victim blamed someone who got killed in the snap, I wonder if that is a common thing.
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Mar 21, 2021 07:56
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Lammasu posted:I would like to point out that this is the first God damned episode. I guess that means we’re invested?
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Mar 21, 2021 08:04
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Oasx posted:I was a little annoyed by the sister. First she was too proud to take the money, even though she knew Sam cared about the boat, and then she got angry with him for being away while he was saving the world. If only she was more rational about her crime fighting brother who she thought was dead for five years. Maybe there should be a disclaimer before every episode that says “the people in this universe have not watched all the Marvel movies”
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Mar 21, 2021 08:18
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Oasx posted:I was a little annoyed by the sister. First she was too proud to take the money, even though she knew Sam cared about the boat, and then she got angry with him for being away while he was saving the world. from her point of view he's kind of a dick too, swanning in after being away all that time. it's not fair, but feelings often aren't.
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Mar 21, 2021 08:23
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Sayin banks suck is a strong enough and worthwhile message that I don't care if it strains credulity for some
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Mar 21, 2021 08:52
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Sam's sister is 100% the most rational person depicted in the MCU thus far.
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Mar 21, 2021 09:11
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Golden Bee posted:If only she was more rational about her crime fighting brother who she thought was dead for five years. There should be a disclaimer in this thread saying "the posters in this thread have not observed reality".
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Mar 21, 2021 09:37
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The amount of people angry that a guy who was one of the world's most wanted criminals for a few years then dead for 5 years doesn't have half a million dollars lying around to spend on a boat is hilarious. As for The Vision, they've never addressed if he counts as a person or not, he could easily be a corporation called The Vision that has one board member on paper - Tony Stark or Pepper or whoever, and then Vision essentially runs it himself. But not being a wanted criminal with no asset seizure means doing odd jobs to make enough money to buy an empty lot in a small town in Jersey isn't that big of a stretch. Not sure how the property taxes were paid for the past five years so that better get addressed in Dr. Strange 2 or we riot
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Mar 21, 2021 09:42
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 06:39 |
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Here’s a Variety interview with FatWS head writer Malcolm Spellman to clear up that, dear god yea, it’s all very much about race. Interesting to note that the writing team for this is mostly black. Good, the more insight, the better.
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Mar 21, 2021 09:51
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