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LingcodKilla posted:Hahahah poor game designing by GW is really hard to defend but you grab it by the root and suck as hard as you can. Rolling dice?
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May 30, 2017 05:10
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LingcodKilla posted:Hahahah poor game designing by GW is really hard to defend but you grab it by the root and suck as hard as you can. I have a faster way for you to say what you just said: "I lost an argument on the internet, therefore the other guy must suck cock"
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May 30, 2017 05:11
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Honestly when it comes right down to it so far the biggest thing I'm upset about is something they've explicitly mentioned will be easy to update post-release. Points costs are probably the single least worth-it things to complain about 8th edition (so far). Perfect? Not even close. Annoying? You bet. Fixable in the near future? Also yes. Not being able to cast the same psychic power multiple times a turn sounds... I mean, I guess it's a little annoying you can't spam the best spell on the list you picked all game long. 
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May 30, 2017 05:15
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RagnarokAngel posted:Rolling dice? If I could find that AOS poster writing about that crazy chain of events happening I would repost it here. I actually want the game to improve and they have certainly taken some good steps towards it. Vehicles having a standardized profile is excellent, different way to play with power levels is also great. But replacing good game design with rolls after rolls after rolls is dumb. Hamshot posted:I have a faster way for you to say what you just said: And hear I was thinking you just telling me to play another game was the same thing.
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May 30, 2017 05:16
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Strobe posted:Honestly when it comes right down to it so far the biggest thing I'm upset about is something they've explicitly mentioned will be easy to update post-release. Points costs are probably the single least worth-it things to complain about 8th edition (so far). Perfect? Not even close. Annoying? You bet. Fixable in the near future? Also yes. Not being able to cast the same psychic power multiple times a turn sounds... I mean, I guess it's a little annoying you can't spam the best spell on the list you picked all game long. C'mon, dude. Participating in the discussion means figuring out what's wrong, figuring out what's wrong means getting it fixed. It's more important to complain about points when they're easy to change, not less, especially if the company is claiming to pay attention and use the players' feedback. What was actually useless was complaining about points costs when your book wasn't going to get updated for 6 years and GW was actively not giving a poo poo about your faction.
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May 30, 2017 05:17
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Strobe posted:Honestly when it comes right down to it so far the biggest thing I'm upset about is something they've explicitly mentioned will be easy to update post-release. Points costs are probably the single least worth-it things to complain about 8th edition (so far). Perfect? Not even close. Annoying? You bet. Fixable in the near future? Also yes. Not being able to cast the same psychic power multiple times a turn sounds... I mean, I guess it's a little annoying you can't spam the best spell on the list you picked all game long. As a psyker heavy player (my 2 armies are craftworld and thousand sons) I normally wouldn't see this as an issue. But the fact that the tables I'm seeing only have 3 powers instead of 6 puts me a bit on edge.
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May 30, 2017 05:18
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Strobe posted:Honestly when it comes right down to it so far the biggest thing I'm upset about is something they've explicitly mentioned will be easy to update post-release. Points costs are probably the single least worth-it things to complain about 8th edition (so far). Perfect? Not even close. Annoying? You bet. Fixable in the near future? Also yes. Not being able to cast the same psychic power multiple times a turn sounds... I mean, I guess it's a little annoying you can't spam the best spell on the list you picked all game long. Each model should be limited to casting a power once per turn, sure. But one power per turn for your whole army basically punishes you more and more based on how many psykers you have. That's extremely lovely for psyker heavy armies like the 1k sons or the Eldar. RagnarokAngel posted:As a psyker heavy player (my 2 armies are craftworld and thousand sons) I normally wouldn't see this as an issue. But the fact that the tables I'm seeing only have 3 powers instead of 6 puts me a bit on edge. Right. And the 3 powers thing itself wouldn't be so bad, simplify the powers a bit, except being only able to cast each one time means you get 3 spells per turn plus smite. If you take more than 3 psykers, they mostly just throw smite bolts all day. I guess if one of them fails the roll anther can try, but still. Locking you out of each for the turn is just weird. E: gently caress me, it says "attempted" so you can't even try again if you fail the roll lolol gently caress psykers in 8th 
Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 05:21 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 05:19
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RagnarokAngel posted:As a psyker heavy player (my 2 armies are craftworld and thousand sons) I normally wouldn't see this as an issue. But the fact that the tables I'm seeing only have 3 powers instead of 6 puts me a bit on edge. Dude it's pretty horse poo poo from what I can tell. The Death Guard can't have that -1 to hit spell on more than one unit in their entire loving army at a time? That's awful.
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May 30, 2017 05:19
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I'm sorry to all those who foresee difficulties remembering three d3 rolls.
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May 30, 2017 05:20
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LingcodKilla posted:If I could find that AOS poster writing about that crazy chain of events happening I would repost it here. Wait, why are you still posting? People usually have the good grace to leave after being butthurt that they were wrong and telling someone else to suck a dick.
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May 30, 2017 05:21
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S.J. posted:Dude it's pretty horse poo poo from what I can tell. The Death Guard can't have that -1 to hit spell on more than one unit in their entire loving army at a time? That's awful. For real, think about this poo poo
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May 30, 2017 05:22
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S.J. posted:C'mon, dude. Participating in the discussion means figuring out what's wrong, figuring out what's wrong means getting it fixed. It's more important to complain about points when they're easy to change, not less, especially if the company is claiming to pay attention and use the players' feedback. What was actually useless was complaining about points costs when your book wasn't going to get updated for 6 years and GW was actively not giving a poo poo about your faction. While this is a valid point, I think at some point in the last five pages of hand-wringing we just might have crossed the threshold into "pointless echo chamber". Points costs are very bad, and the mechanism for calculating the costs of models is pretty bad. Honestly though I'm probably just acutely annoyed at goons going all  over the only thing written in pencil in the book.
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May 30, 2017 05:22
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Zaphod42 posted:For real, think about this poo poo Eldar won't be able to put that loving cover poo poo on more than one guardian squad or w/e
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May 30, 2017 05:22
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S.J. posted:Dude it's pretty horse poo poo from what I can tell. The Death Guard can't have that -1 to hit spell on more than one unit in their entire loving army at a time? That's awful. I agree, my initial impression is "this looks really bad" But I also want to withhold judgement because I don't know I'm a slave to gw.
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May 30, 2017 05:26
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S.J. posted:Eldar won't be able to put that loving cover poo poo on more than one guardian squad or w/e Do we know Eldar even still have that in 8th? So far it looks like the powers themselves have already been heavily nerfed. Seems to me like the balance should be on how expensive the psyker is, how weak the psyker is, or how powerful the ability is. Limiting use per-army is just really awkward and underwhelming for a psyker player. I mean if psykers like Ahriman can still cast multiple spells per turn, you shouldn't even take any additional psykers in your army. Its like, take 3 weak psykers OR 1 psyker character and NO MORE. I guess maybe Ahriman will have a unique power, Magnus definitely will. But STILL, think about how limiting that is. Ugggh. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 05:29 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 05:26
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Zaphod42 posted:Each model should be limited to casting a power once per turn, sure. But one power per turn for your whole army basically punishes you more and more based on how many psykers you have. That's extremely lovely for psyker heavy armies like the 1k sons or the Eldar. They can still cast smite and some will have their own unique powers. Only being able to cast one of each power a turn is a pretty good balancing thing. Strobe posted:While this is a valid point, I think at some point in the last five pages of hand-wringing we just might have crossed the threshold into "pointless echo chamber". Points costs are very bad, and the mechanism for calculating the costs of models is pretty bad. Honestly though I'm probably just acutely annoyed at goons going all This is pretty much my view on the thing. Combined with the fact that doing slightly more basic addition before you start the game is not very hard.
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May 30, 2017 05:27
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Zaphod42 posted:Do we know Eldar even still have that in 8th? So far it looks like the powers themselves have already been heavily nerfed. Magnus the Red has a power unique to him and his version of smite does d6 mortal wounds or 2d6 on a 10 plus.
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May 30, 2017 05:28
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So as a note, using the full leaked marine point costs, I turned my 1850 7th ed army into 8th ed and it costs 2302 points. 228 of that is from my predator squadron, but everything in my list got more expensive except for the vanguard and the jump pack chaplain (which I've been proxying since I don't own it yet) which got cheaper.
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May 30, 2017 05:32
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Zaphod42 posted:Do we know Eldar even still have that in 8th? So far it looks like the powers themselves have already been heavily nerfed. It does specifically except Smite from that list, and Smite will probably basically always be useful even if it's not the kind of useful you wanted in that situation. Plus being able to take powers from different disciplines means you can have more powers than you could reasonably run out of. Take 1 power Psyker for the spells you actually want to take, and several weak ones for Smite and/or different disciplinary spells.
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May 30, 2017 05:32
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Strobe posted:It does specifically except Smite from that list, and Smite will probably basically always be useful even if it's not the kind of useful you wanted in that situation. Plus being able to take powers from different disciplines means you can have more powers than you could reasonably run out of. Take 1 power Psyker for the spells you actually want to take, and several weak ones for Smite and/or different disciplinary spells. I dunno, smite feels really un-psyker to me. Like, if all they get is smite, they may as well just be shooting guns? The whole point of psykers is that you have a couple spells to choose from based on the situation, like a wizard. At least give me a couple flavors of fireball to pick from! MonsterEnvy posted:Magnus the Red has a power unique to him and his version of smite does d6 mortal wounds or 2d6 on a 10 plus. Yeah Magnus is fine. But everybody else is kinda pointless beyond unique character psykers like Magnus and then one or two cheap psykers. The more you get the worse they are. Better hope dudes like Mephiston and Ahriman get unique powers too, and not just the standard chapter spells.
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May 30, 2017 05:33
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I've been wanting to make a coven of generic Chaos sorcerers (non-Thousand Sons) as my HQ blob and the "only one manifestation of a particular power per turn" thing doesn't bother me too much because I wanted to make each one focus on a different discipline Assuming, of course, they still let you pick multiple disciplines
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May 30, 2017 05:34
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chutche2 posted:So as a note, using the full leaked marine point costs, I turned my 1850 7th ed army into 8th ed and it costs 2302 points. That was their plan all along to reduce 2000 point games from 3 hours to 2: points creep.
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May 30, 2017 05:34
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Do we know if there will still be multiple schools? Like it still sucks but I'm not sure of it's just "you literally only have 3 powers so characters like eldrad or ahriman are overkill"
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May 30, 2017 05:35
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The chaos space marine leak has a nurgle specific list of psychic powers, so multiple schools are in.
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May 30, 2017 05:36
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goose willis posted:I've been wanting to make a coven of generic Chaos sorcerers (non-Thousand Sons) as my HQ blob and the "only one manifestation of a particular power per turn" thing doesn't bother me too much because I wanted to make each one focus on a different discipline Yeah, we'll see how many disciplines there are. But then that kinda feels like its going to punish non-SMs way more, since SMs and CSMs just got those 4 bonus disciplines while most xenos only have a single discipline. Maybe the xenos disciplines will have more like 6 or 9 powers instead of the 3 that the SM ones do? And your psykers still have to generate powers (at least it doesn't have to be random) so its not like if one guy casts a power successfully you can just go with a different power on another guy. You gotta commit to different powers or the same power. Hrm. E: Nevermind, its not Heretek its just "dark hereticus" so those 4 disciplines from 7th are probably gone and factions probably just get 3 powers each, with maybe 3 bonus powers for some like Nurgle and Tzeentch. Hamshot posted:The chaos space marine leak has a nurgle specific list of psychic powers, so multiple schools are in. Definitely. CSM psykers get Dark Hereticus on top of smite, but its just 3 powers. Its not clear whether you get the Nurgle and other CSM abilities or if you have to pick one or the other. That'd be 6 powers at least if you get both. Zaphod42 fucked around with this message at 05:40 on May 30, 2017 |
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May 30, 2017 05:37
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It's probably just "this unit can cast these powers: [list]"
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May 30, 2017 05:38
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RagnarokAngel posted:Do we know if there will still be multiple schools? Like it still sucks but I'm not sure of it's just "you literally only have 3 powers so characters like eldrad or ahriman are overkill" Looking at the stats of a Pysker. It depends on the Psyker. Mephiston knows Smite and two from the Blood Angels exclusive Psyker Discipline.
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May 30, 2017 05:40
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Okay so i'm confused about what's supposedly so awful about having a single table of points for the granular-army-construction mode; like, don't you want all the point costs in one place when putting your army together? Having to flip between several pages to find unit point costs and upgrades, as well as the army-wide weapon list table sucked rear end. The whole purpose of this table is to make it possible to re-balance the point costs of units without reprinting all their datasheets, and I really don't get how a table that lists points for things is hard to follow or badly laid out or whatever.
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May 30, 2017 05:44
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That post did a very good job of spectacularly missing the point. Try to work on that reading comprehension! It'll come eventually.
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May 30, 2017 05:46
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Texmo posted:Okay so i'm confused about what's supposedly so awful about having a single table of points for the granular-army-construction mode; like, don't you want all the point costs in one place when putting your army together? Having to flip between several pages to find unit point costs and upgrades, as well as the army-wide weapon list table sucked rear end. The problem with it is that you have to take the base cost of the model, multiply by the desired number of models, look at the warscroll to see what the models are equipped with, then add the cost of all equipment to the base cost. Instead of "A tac squad costs 70 points, +14 for each dude"
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May 30, 2017 05:46
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Zaphod42 posted:Do we know Eldar even still have that in 8th? So far it looks like the powers themselves have already been heavily nerfed. I mean if Eldar don't have good psychic powers then what the gently caress man
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May 30, 2017 05:46
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Traditional Games > Warhammer 40k: Does Not Include Wargear
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May 30, 2017 05:46
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The thing about not allowing multiple strategems (and therefore multiple rerolls) fucks over armies who want a lot of command points. The thing about not repeater psychic power attempts except Smite fucks over armies who want a lot of psykers. Both only apply to GW's definition of matched play. Personally I wouldn't be surprised to see tournaments ignore those rules entirely.
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May 30, 2017 05:48
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Honestly I expected Only one Psychic power of each kind pur turn cause that is how it is in Age of Sigmar with Spells. Should also note that things like Demons will likely have special rules like "any Psyker in the army knows the Summon Bloodletters Psychic power." So Psykers will get more powers. The Multiple Strategems thing is only per phase. So you can reroll in the shooting phase then do so again in the charge phase. And you can use multiple ones just not the same one.
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May 30, 2017 05:53
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Both only apply to GW's definition of matched play. Personally I wouldn't be surprised to see tournaments ignore those rules entirely. Will not be surprised in the slightest to see Sigmar level documents of special tournament rules that override half of 8th edition.
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May 30, 2017 05:54
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Texmo posted:Okay so i'm confused about what's supposedly so awful about having a single table of points for the granular-army-construction mode; like, don't you want all the point costs in one place when putting your army together? Having to flip between several pages to find unit point costs and upgrades, as well as the army-wide weapon list table sucked rear end. It's unnecessarily obtuse. You will be flipping across pages anyway unless you've memorized every data sheet, and having it all on each sheet also provides more granular control for GW to balance things. For example if a B3 and a B4 model both use a weapon then that weapon being worth 1 point less improves the value of the BS4 model more than the BS3. Of course if GW put the points on the data sheets there wouldn't be a reason to buy the army books.
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May 30, 2017 05:54
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chutche2 posted:The problem with it is that you have to take the base cost of the model, multiply by the desired number of models, look at the warscroll to see what the models are equipped with, then add the cost of all equipment to the base cost. Instead of "A tac squad costs 70 points, +14 for each dude" So are saying that like, 70 for 5, +14*5 for 5 more marines, +5 for a flamer, +10 for a missile launcher, +5 for melta bombs (costs referenced from the unit datasheet and the weapon list) is significantly different and much easier than this? 13*10 for 10 marines, +9 for a flamer, +25 for a missile launcher, +5 for melta bombs (costs referenced from the points list) because this is where I'm confused, the latter seems easier to me due to only having to look in one place
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May 30, 2017 05:54
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kingcom posted:Will not be surprised in the slightest to see Sigmar level documents of special tournament rules that override half of 8th edition. Well NOVA Open is the first major event and Mike has said he was hoping to use 8th depending on when it dropped. I suspect he would want to set the trend.
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May 30, 2017 05:55
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Texmo posted:So are saying that like, Of course it's easy when you pick units where all the basic wargear is 0 points. Now do it for a Land Raider and see how much more difficult it is. Like this is also practically verbatim in the last five pages just go read the actual goddamn thread and spare us this poo poo, please.
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May 30, 2017 05:57
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Texmo posted:So are saying that like, I'm fine with saying "price per model" instead of "price for unit of 5, plus X for more" if that's what you like. But there's still more to talk about here. First, why do things with no wargear options not have the points included? Needless busywork that you could literally add up and then write on the datasheet in marker. So why isn't it already printed that way? Dumb. Dumb dumb dumb. Second, Beer4TheBeerGod posted:having it all on each sheet also provides more granular control for GW to balance things. For example if a B3 and a B4 model both use a weapon then that weapon being worth 1 point less improves the value of the BS4 model more than the BS3.
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May 30, 2017 05:59
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