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kid sinister posted:
OK the other side of the ceiling fixture is just the 2nd fixture it's jumped to. It doesn't go anywhere after that and I see no junction box. It looks like it goes right up into and along the ceiling. I am not sure if this pic will help but here it is:  If you zoom in you can even kind of make out where the wire is running in the ceiling since the sheet rock is old as hell. kid sinister posted:For now, disconnect both ceiling fixtures, Remove all the extensions in your boxes, spread the wires out nice, post some good lit photos of all your boxes, do the wire tests again and post an updated diagram. We need to rule out that they aren't the source of all your #2s in your diagram. OK so I have an updated diagram and you are right. The ceiling fixtures are the reason I got multiple "2s" so here is an updated one:  Hopefully this solves the mystery? I have no idea. Also I am not sure why I used the number 8 as a new number; I guess I just wanted it far away from the other numbers but 7 can look like a 1 so I just chose 8. I have my last day off tomorrow so if you somehow know what is going on and can tell me what to do I'll be forever in your debt as you will have literally given me the gift of light.
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Jul 13, 2016 00:44
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So, #2 has four ends.
angryrobots fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Jul 13, 2016 |
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Jul 13, 2016 02:05
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Again, your front of garage picture sucks. Please follow the instructions I gave. And angryrobots is right, you have too many #2s. You need to find where they are all still joined together.
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Jul 13, 2016 03:36
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Or that they aren't, and re-label.
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Jul 13, 2016 03:41
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angryrobots posted:So, #2 has four ends. Unless the PO chose to split the Romex, one pair of #2 most likely runs between the front and back 3 way switches. Really the correct answer is to make a butt load of exploratory holes in your drywall/plaster because that place is full of mistakes and poor wiring. Not Wolverine fucked around with this message at 13:49 on Jul 13, 2016 |
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Jul 13, 2016 04:17
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Is a stud finder that claims to be able to detect wiring reliable at all? I'm trying to find a low-cost way to locate the wires in my wall without cutting 8 holes. Any better ideas or caveats I should be aware of?
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Jul 13, 2016 04:56
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KnifeWrench posted:Is a stud finder that claims to be able to detect wiring reliable at all? I'm trying to find a low-cost way to locate the wires in my wall without cutting 8 holes. Any better ideas or caveats I should be aware of? Whst do you need to find them for?
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Jul 13, 2016 05:43
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kid sinister posted:Whst do you need to find them for? I'm adding an outlet and need to branch off the circuit as close as possible.
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Jul 13, 2016 14:55
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Crotch Fruit posted:Unless the PO chose to split the Romex, one pair of #2 most likely runs between the front and back 3 way switches. I am going to take a better pic of the front box in an hour or two (I have a sick infant who has been sleeping on me since 6am, I'm not being lazy, I promise) but I just wanted to explain your crossed out words for a moment. The garage door opener was never removed and has always been working great. Before I bought the house, the garage door opener was plugged into a long extension cord that went along the ceiling, and plugged right into that 3 gang box in the back of the garage (a standard 3-prong outlet). There was no wiring work or splicing into anything. It was just an extension cord from the garage door opener to an outlet. When it was like that, the ceiling fixture and flood lights worked just fine. Since I'm guessing running an extension cord wasn't legal, before I got an inspector, they must have hired an electrician to run an outlet right from the panel in the basement to the garage, putting the garage door opener on its own breaker. Sounds great but when they did this they removed the outlet that was in the 3 gang box in the back of the garage for whatever reason. And for whatever reason, the ceiling light fixture and the flood light stopped working after that. They left two switches in there that do nothing. One regular switch and one three way switch. The switches never controlled the garage door opener or its light from what I remember. One switch (the three way) turned the ceiling light fixture on and off, and the other controlled the flood light. I believe the ceiling light was the 3-way switch because I can't imagine someone wanting to turn off the flood light from the front of the garage instead of the ceiling light. The outlet that was plugged into the garage door opener via a gigantic extension cord was removed and as a result, I am without a ceiling light or flood light. I no longer even care about getting that outlet back in that 3 gang box (I certainly would love it, but it's nowhere near as important to me as being able to see in the garage or in my backyard at night). I'm not sure if this info helps but I see you wondered how the garage door opener previously received power and you had also thought the garage door opener was removed, so I just wanted to clarify. Sorry if it isn't useful information, though. Chumbawumba4ever97 fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Jul 13, 2016 |
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Jul 13, 2016 15:04
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KnifeWrench posted:I'm adding an outlet and need to branch off the circuit as close as possible. You can't splice wires outside of boxes. Well, there is one connector from Tyco that's allowed for tapping wires outside of boxes, but that's it. Do it from a box, it will be easier.
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Jul 13, 2016 17:52
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kid sinister posted:You can't splice wires outside of boxes. Well, there is one connector from Tyco that's allowed for tapping wires outside of boxes, but that's it. Do it from a box, it will be easier. I'm not sure I follow. I'm adding a box; does that not count? And also, the main reason I'm adding it is because there aren't any boxes remotely close to the intended location. Is there some trick I don't know that would make feeding wires through walls around 2 corners "easier"? Feel free to explain it like I'm an idiot. I'm confident this project isn't out of my reach, but I definitely lack contextual knowledge.
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Jul 13, 2016 18:25
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KnifeWrench posted:I'm not sure I follow. I'm adding a box; does that not count? And also, the main reason I'm adding it is because there aren't any boxes remotely close to the intended location. Is there some trick I don't know that would make feeding wires through walls around 2 corners "easier"? Yes, you're adding a box at the end of your new cable, but you have to attach the other end to something else. All wiring junctions must be made inside accessible boxes, except for that one connector I mentioned. You can't just find a wire in the middle of the wall, splice into it and cover it up. It is extremely difficult to fish wire horizontally through finished walls and near impossible to turn corners. What's above and below this room? Is it near an attic, crawlspace or unfinished basement?
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Jul 13, 2016 20:06
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kid sinister posted:Yes, you're adding a box at the end of your new cable, but you have to attach the other end to something else. All wiring junctions must be made inside accessible boxes, except for that one connector I mentioned. You can't just find a wire in the middle of the wall, splice into it and cover it up. The attic is, for all practical purposes, inaccessible. It may not come through in the photo, but that gap is really small. I started to try to squeeze through, but was genuinely concerned I'd get stuck. The thought was that I'd find out where the wires were, and if they were in a halfway decent location, is just put the box there and be done with it. But I can't evaluate that approach until I know where the wires are.
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Jul 13, 2016 20:41
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KnifeWrench posted:The thought was that I'd find out where the wires were, and if they were in a halfway decent location, is just put the box there and be done with it. But I can't evaluate that approach until I know where the wires are. The problem is that the wires are probably stapled to the 2x4s and usually there's no slack, so you wouldn't be able to cut it and put both ends in a box. There's a small possibility you could add 2 outlets using the wire you already have and just adding wire in between them, but that's still likely to result in a lot of holes in your drywall.
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Jul 13, 2016 20:54
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Until you can tell us why wire #2 has four ends, I don't think anyone will be able to help you. Either you have another hidden box, or you have mismarked the wire pairs. Edit: also I think we understand the timeline fine, you have to realize that just because the lights were "on" when you looked at the place, doesn't mean that they functioned as a 3-way at any time. Being that the "electrician" left them disconnected, may be very telling. It is possible that even if a 3-way circuit isn't happening (without running more wire), that we can get your lights working on a couple of single pole switches...but for even that to happen we need an accurate and complete map so you don't burn your house down per the thread title. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Jul 13, 2016 |
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Jul 13, 2016 21:10
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angryrobots posted:Until you can tell us why wire #2 has four ends, I don't think anyone will be able to help you. Either you have another hidden box, or you have mismarked the wire pairs. ...or a splice somewhere outside of a box, which is looking more and more like a possibility. Uncle at Nintendo, could you also draw us a half assed map in Paint? Just show us the locations of where the boxes you know of are.
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Jul 13, 2016 22:49
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I can do one better for you all. I bashed my ceiling into oblivion (much to the dismay of my wife). But like someone once said, you can solve many of life's problems with a hammer: If you zoom in on the 2nd hole from the corner, I finally discovered what the hell is going on (kind of)  Yeah I'm a nut but I was pretty sure I would have never discovered this otherwise (there is absolutely no other way to access it unless you took down a wall in the kitchen) And guess what, there's actually two boxes up there! This is the one you can kind of see in my 1st pic above:   Then after that, to the right is this:  So this is how it looks wired now that I've destroyed this garage: There are two sets of wires coming from the flood light fixture  One set goes down to that 3-gang box in the back of the garage. The other set goes goes off to the square ceiling box. You can see it coming in on the bottom left side in that square box in the ceiling. The wires from the ceiling light fixture are going to the top right of that square ceiling box. The top left wire of that square ceiling box is going to the 3 way switch in the 3-gang box. The bottom right of that ceiling box is going to this: That white cable behind that is for 1 of 2 small high hats in my kitchen (one jumps to another small high hat on the other side of the garage in the kitchen; I did not break a hole there). Now I would assume that when my kitchen was redone, that the electrician doing the kitchen somehow messed all of this up in an effort to "easily" wire up the kitchen. However I was able to turn on those 2 small high hats while everything in the garage was off, so I am thinking they can't possibly be linked and it's just a coincidence they are so close (and he just re-used holes already there). However, our kitchen was in fact completely gutted and redone shortly after we bought the house several years ago, so I really do not know if these garage and flood lights worked in between the short window of us getting the home but before the kitchen was done (the kitchen was completely terrible so we had to have it done fairly quickly as eating Chinese food every single night got old quick). I am still wiping off sheet rock debris from every crevices of my neck and face so I apologize if my reply came a bit later than expected. Hopefully what I need to do to rectify this is obvious to you all here and my discoveries are hopefully useful for that. Thank you all as usual. Chumbawumba4ever97 fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 01:32
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Good work! Now you know where all your #2s came from. Tell your wife that you found a huge code violation and those boxes couldn't be buried behind drywall anyway, so it had to come down. Boxes must always be accessible. You know what to do: draw us up a map, start untwisting wires and labelling which wires go where. Edit: first thing is first. Make sure all the power is off in those boxes with a circuit tester before you start untwisting. With how screwed up everything your wiring, I wouldn't rule out that those boxes might have another circuit that is still on. Also, you can't have buried boxes like that. You need to decide to either move them to the surface and patch the drywall, or leave it torn down. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 02:06 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 02:00
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Holy hell. Next time try using a drywall saw instead of a hammer. You would have been able to put the sections you cut right back in with some backing and tape+mud.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:07
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Motronic posted:Holy hell. Next time try using a drywall saw instead of a hammer. You would have been able to put the sections you cut right back in with some backing and tape+mud. haha I own a drywall saw. I just didn't care because the ceiling is totally crap anyway as we had a leak in the garage a while back and it even fell off in another part of the garage, so pretty much the entire ceiling needs to be sheet rocked anyway. And honestly I don't really mind the garage being bare but also with a sheet rock saw I would have had the possibility of cutting into wire with my luck. kid sinister posted:Good work! Now you know where all your #2s came from. Tell your wife that you found a huge code violation and those boxes couldn't be buried behind drywall anyway, so it had to come down. Boxes must always be accessible. OK, I will do all of this, though unfortunately now that I am back on work tomorrow it will be a few days until I can get to it again. Though if I had to wager, I would say that 2nd box (the rectangle shaped one) only exists as an "extension" so that the 3 way switch could run across the garage. Also it is tied into the square box, so it's basically like they extended the drat wire twice. If it is unclear from my pics, basically in the square box all they did was tie red to re,d all whites to white, and all blacks to black.
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Jul 14, 2016 02:25
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Yeah and that's part of your problems. That box isn't going to be color to color for every wire. Now that you've poked all the holes, is it possible to reach any or all of those boxes (the switch boxes and flood light box) to fish wire into them? I have a feeling that may end up being the best way to eliminate the illegal boxes, simplify this mess, and get a functioning 3-way and separate single pole switch and receptacle at the opposite end from where power is coming from (if you want to keep it that way).
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Jul 14, 2016 02:35
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angryrobots posted:Yeah and that's part of your problems. That box isn't going to be color to color for every wire. Thank you! I probably would prefer to keep the rectangular box, but I will not patch up the ceiling so it's safe and legal. I don't want to get rid of the rectangular box mostly because it will be ridiculously difficult to run new wire for that. I would have to take down quite a bit of wall, and the opposite of the garage is my kitchen and living room and I would imagine that would make those rooms quite a bit colder because it gets freezing in that garage. It seems as though it's just the 3 way switch wire. However I definitely can re-run any of the cable going from the ceiling light or from the flood light box, as long as I don't need to run it to the front of the garage (I can't see why I'd need to but just covering all my bases). I'll unwire everything and then I guess all that's needed is figuring out the right way to wire it up! Again, I am totally fine with leaving some nice artisan holes in the ceiling so I won't risk fire or violation of a safety code.
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Jul 14, 2016 13:53
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The holes are a code violation and a fire risk. The loose box is a code violation and a fire risk. You have to fix this stuff properly. Stop trying to halfass your poo poo.
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Jul 14, 2016 16:52
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slap me silly posted:The holes are a code violation and a fire risk. The loose box is a code violation and a fire risk. You have to fix this stuff properly. Stop trying to halfass your poo poo. A hole in drywall is a fire risk? Hell, my garage has no drywall at all over the framing, that's a code violation?
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Jul 14, 2016 16:55
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Code issue when it's an attached garage and this and that situation, etc. Drywall is an important fire barrier when it's installed correctly.
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Jul 14, 2016 17:18
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As I understand it (and I don't claim to be an expert), you need drywall between the garage and the house to serve as a firewall, since the garage tends to have flammables in it, but the rest of the garage doesn't necessarily need to be drywalled. Still, it doesn't take much effort do do a half-assed drywall patching job that will meet code. I wouldn't want to leave holes in my ceiling, personally.
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Jul 14, 2016 17:25
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Not just for fire, it's a carbon monoxide barrier as well. You have to install exterior doors with gaskets and all, between the house and any attached garage, and it can't share any hvac ducting either.
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Jul 14, 2016 17:36
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slap me silly posted:The holes are a code violation and a fire risk. The loose box is a code violation and a fire risk. You have to fix this stuff properly. Stop trying to halfass your poo poo. When did I say I was trying to halfass anything? I am trying to figure out the wiring issue on my own with guidance from others; isn't that the opposite of half-assing? I spent like 60 goddamn hours on this, give me a break with this "half-rear end" nonsense. 90% of your posts are cursing at me and "jesus christ...you CLEARLY have NO CLUE" type belittlement. It is to my understanding that it merely has to be exposed, and there is no code that says the garage has to have drywall. There is drywall on the other side since it's our kitchen, and the roof leads to nowhere. edit: Technically right now my garage is way more safe today than it was 3 weeks ago before I started all this. Chumbawumba4ever97 fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 18:12
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I didn't start that until you started ignoring what people were telling you, hotshot.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:19
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slap me silly posted:I didn't start that until you started ignoring what people were telling you, hotshot. Where did someone tell me I had to put new drywall up to meet fire safety code and I ignored them? Link me to it.
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Jul 14, 2016 18:19
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Never mind, let's just drop it. Regardless of bickering I do appreciate everyone's help so far, and if I am doing something wrong, just let me know. I don't predict me contesting anything being asked of me to do so I can pretty much guarantee I will do it. In fact, I am going to pick up some new wire on the way home from work, and would like to know if you all recommend I go with 12 gauge or 14 gauge? I don't mind thicker wire since I am assuming it's safer, but also it might be impossible to run the thicker wire to the flood light box (I am going to be lucky to even get the thinner wire in). If it helps, I am going to throw out these ceiling fixtures and get some newer ones with LED "florescent tubes" because these things look old as hell and I am assuming are ridiculously inefficient.
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Jul 14, 2016 19:22
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So maintenance still hasn't fixed the recessed light. Big surprise there. They did show up and install GFCIs in the kitchen the other day. Every... single... outlet. Instead of just installing one at the beginning of the circuit, and only by the sink. I started smelling that lovely hot wiring smell last night while running the microwave, and the outlet was really hot. Turns out the chucklefucks didn't tighten down the screws on that outlet. At least they didn't use backstabs. angryrobots posted:Not just for fire, it's a carbon monoxide barrier as well. You have to install exterior doors with gaskets and all, between the house and any attached garage, and it can't share any hvac ducting either. My dad's house has HVAC vents in the garage... tied into the whole-house HVAC.  Though it was built around 1982, and was a model home for the development. It also has alarm-powered smoke detectors (hooked to an alarm that hasn't had power since the early 90s, at the latest - it's old enough that you have to have an installer burn a new PROM chip anytime you want to change the code) instead of battery or AC powered detectors. Irony: the company that made the burglar alarm now makes only fire alarm systems (Silent Knight). Pops doesn't see the problem with the HVAC (even the money it costs to cool the garage) or the lack of functioning smoke detectors. Uncle at Nintendo posted:12 gauge or 14 gauge Are the breakers for those circuits 15 or 20 amps? If 15 amps, 14 gauge is usually fine. 20 amps requires at least 12 gauge.
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Jul 14, 2016 20:03
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some texas redneck posted:My dad's house has HVAC vents in the garage... tied into the whole-house HVAC. If it's like most houses built around that time with HVAC in the garage there is no return. Unless you count the man door into the house as a return.
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Jul 14, 2016 21:07
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There's a dog door in the door between the house and garage. Not... exactly sealed. The house also has both swamp and central a/c. I don't think the swamp coolers have ever been used, but to block them off you just stick a sheet of sheet metal into a slot in the duct below the swamp coolers (on the roof). Plenty of conditioned air blasts out around that year-round. Other nice things include the sprinkler controller powered by an extension cord run through the stucco to outside, and wired directly to the breaker panel (AFAIK that was done by the builder). And 3 of the 6 sprinkler solenoids are (I think) buried under the back patio. One of those solenoids has been dead for at least 15 years. That house was a clusterfuck when it was built. The best part is it's on a funky shaped lot, where the property lines go right up to the neighboring house - all of their pool equipment is mounted onto the back of their next door neighbor's house. Next time I visit I'll have to take a camera and make a megapost in the crappy construction tales thread, it really is a work of randomidiot fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Jul 14, 2016 |
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Jul 14, 2016 21:24
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Uncle at Nintendo posted:wire size
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Jul 14, 2016 22:23
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Ok, I will hold off on buying new wire. I will have time on Monday to dismantle everything and map out this new wiring discovery. Thanks again as always for all the help.
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Jul 15, 2016 00:01
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Also keep in mind that local code may prohibit using more than one wire gauge on a circuit, so if you're not replacing everything you may not have a choice.
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Jul 15, 2016 18:59
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I want to add a few outlets in my garage. I'm going to use handy boxes and conduit. I know the typical advice is to use THHN for ease of pulling, but I have a bunch of NM leftover from another project. If I'm only pulling one run through the conduit, and only making a single 90 degree bend, will I hate myself if I try to use it? This is the wire I have: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Romex-100-ft-14-2-White-Solid-SIMpull-NM-B-Wire-28827428/202316379 Also taking advice for what kind of conduit to go with. Don't really care how it looks. Would like to avoid glueing PVC together if possible. Thanks all.
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Jul 15, 2016 20:06
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opengl128 posted:I want to add a few outlets in my garage. I'm going to use handy boxes and conduit. I know the typical advice is to use THHN for ease of pulling, but I have a bunch of NM leftover from another project. If I'm only pulling one run through the conduit, and only making a single 90 degree bend, will I hate myself if I try to use it? This is the wire I have: It's possible, and with only one bend you shouldn't have too much trouble. For the corner, I recommend threading the cable through first, then attaching the conduit and all the fittings and clamps. Get some EMT if you don't like gluing. Buy a preformed 90° bend with some couplings. Cut it with a hacksaw with a file or utility knife for the burrs. Is this a new circuit or will you extending and existing one? Oh, and garage outlets require GFCI protection. kid sinister fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Jul 15, 2016 |
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Jul 15, 2016 20:58
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Adding onto an existing circuit. And yup, was gonna get GFCI outlets. The existing outlet is mounted to the rafters for the garage door opener. Was gonna extend off that in either direction and put one on the two opposite walls. I see a few different sizes of EMT. Do you think 1/2" would be big enough?
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Jul 15, 2016 21:38
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