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Finster Dexter posted:So I'm on the final chapter of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I need more awesome ww2 material. What should I read next? This is the only historical work I've ever read so anything else is new to me. Inside the Third Reich by Speer is a fairly decent companion to Rise and Fall. Shirer left Germany as the war started in Europe, and he starts to rely a lot more on secondary sources and whatnot, and the book gets somewhat less detailed at that point. Speer's climb up the Nazi hierarchy was long and slow, and he wasn't a pivotal figure until I think '42 (or was it '43 when he took over production?). However, even before that, he was one of Hitler's faves, and had pretty ready access to the High command, and was sort of just around when a lot of things happened, like Shirer was beforehand. He also gives an interesting perspective on the rise of the Nazis by someone that was not an ideological nutbag, even though he was an early party member. Just, when you read it, remember that the guy ran Germany's war economy, and he gets somewhat self-serving about technically not knowing that the Germans had hundreds of thousands of slaves working and dying in his factories.
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Nov 11, 2016 12:45
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If you want to know what the average member of the military thought about E/N, you could do a lot worse than Soldaten, an analysis of the transcripts of ordinary conversations held between German POWs, mostly in British prison camps. It's all fascinating; you find apparently devoted Nazis who nevertheless think that maybe they're going a bit too far in dealing with the Jews, and apparently avowed enemies of Hitler who say "now, the one thing the Fuhrer has unquestionably got right is the way he's dealt with the Jewish problem..."
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Nov 11, 2016 13:24
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Trin Tragula posted:If you want to know what the average member of the military thought about E/N, you could do a lot worse than Soldaten, an analysis of the transcripts of ordinary conversations held between German POWs, mostly in British prison camps. It's all fascinating; you find apparently devoted Nazis who nevertheless think that maybe they're going a bit too far in dealing with the Jews, and apparently avowed enemies of Hitler who say "now, the one thing the Fuhrer has unquestionably got right is the way he's dealt with the Jewish problem..." The most  inducing one was the officer who firmly, strongly objected to the mass killings, even issuing a formal protest and ordering his men to interfere with the massacres... Because they were dumping the bodies in the river, and this was polluting the water supply they were using. I guess there's a small chance he just felt he couldn't say "killing civillians disgusted me", but, 
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Nov 11, 2016 13:39
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Cyrano4747 posted:It also shows that it's a skill you've bothered to cultivate. Anyone can "make his mark" and scraw something to show that he looked at a document, but actually consistently making legible letters is something that takes abit more than just knowing that two lines, a circle, and a half circle in the right order makes the word "cat." We really need to keep those people away from windows
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Nov 11, 2016 13:46
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Cyrano4747 posted:It's absolutely true that there is a wide space between what Internet People in TYOOL 2016 consider literacy and being able to sign your name, but functional literacy for someone who isn't a scribe or scholar is also a much, much lower bar than people presume. edit: this is why 17th century milhist in specific is so fascinating to me: these guys are recognizably people, they have the state of the human condition in common with us, and there are certain ways their armies work that are similar to our armies, but so much of what they take for granted in military life is based on assumptions that are just flat-out loving different from our own. Your officer gives you an order you don't like? Duel him! You're deserting? That's more or less fine, see ya next year! You get into an argument with another enlisted man? Sue him! The court isn't there to control you, it's there to mediate disputes among you guys! HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 13:49
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Finster Dexter posted:So I'm on the final chapter of Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. I need more awesome ww2 material. What should I read next? This is the only historical work I've ever read so anything else is new to me. Are you looking for broad scholarly overviews, or on-the-ground personal memoirs?
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Nov 11, 2016 13:56
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*furiously writes down suggestions*hogmartin posted:Are you looking for broad scholarly overviews, or on-the-ground personal memoirs? Tough to say? I loved how R&FotTR quoted a lot of the captured documents and gave a good play-by-play of how events unfolded, meetings held, speeches given, orders issued, etc. So, I guess more of the overviews, but like was mentioned further up the thread, Shirer drew from his own experiences and diaries up until 1940 and some of that was really fascinating, too.
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Nov 11, 2016 14:30
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ATTN HEY GAL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beOgmCxeh7A
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Nov 11, 2016 16:17
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aaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAA edit: the little cartridge like cup thing functions almost like the seprate chamber things on breechloading cannons but in miniature everybody watch this video aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa edit 2: speaking of breechloading cannon, these things, hook guns, falconets and sakers, etc, loving fascinate me. They're very very small for cannons but too big for personal pieces----tactically, especially in sieges, they are the ancestors of the heavy machine gun but the smallest ones are also the ancestors of longrange personal firearms. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 16:29
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Anyone know a good way to stop feeling vaguely dirty for studying military history after this loving election? Like I'm just sick to death of hearing about conflict and whatnot.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:08
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Do something to minimize the negative results of the loving election. As for conflict, welcome to Earth. You'll be hearing about it till you day you die. Might even be the last thing you hear.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:18
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Look for some nice communist revolutions that worked and then stop reading before you get to the bit where the CIA overthrows them?
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Nov 11, 2016 17:22
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*gestures to window* edit: for substance, I think my studies are helping me--after all, I can look the current situation in the face and honestly say "it's been worse"
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Nov 11, 2016 17:23
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I probably just need a break and a good night's sleep, since I spent the last couple of days sorting through my own research for want of anything else more constructive to do.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:25
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I mean, it's armistice day, if there's one day in the year to feel kind of lovely about being interested in war it is today. And feeling lovely is probably good for the functioning of your conscience too. I find going for a walk or something does help, or just do something dumb and fun. That is so amazingly cool, 1625... Christ. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:36 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 17:29
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Society needs people who understand war without reveling in it.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:35
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OwlFancier posted:That is so amazingly cool, 1625... Christ.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:39
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The breech and cartridge design is really clever, I was wondering how you do a breech without a bolt and a bolt without a cartridge, all without losing your eyebrows. The little pre loaded cup cartridges are a really good idea, almost like a stripper clip in later centuries.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:46
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OwlFancier posted:The breech and cartridge design is really clever, I was wondering how you do a breech without a bolt and a bolt without a cartridge, all without losing your eyebrows. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breech-loading_swivel_gun load up a shitton of chambers beforehand, ready to go, and just slam them in and out during combat. if you have enough people loading for you while you fire, you can maintain a high rate of fire until the powder runs out. Now place one of those things in a fortified spot, and wait until your enemies  edit: i was not speaking hyperbolically when i said that a big siege reminds me of world war 1 with 17th century tech HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 17:53
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That whole channel is full of really cool guns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_5U9AoIS5I Early almost double action revolver, with a cool little gas seal around the chambers and the barrel.
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Nov 11, 2016 17:56
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OwlFancier posted:That whole channel is full of really cool guns Yeah, Forgotten Weapons is a really great channel and a perennial TFR favorite.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:11
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Cyrano4747 posted:Yeah, Forgotten Weapons is a really great channel and a perennial TFR favorite. Yeah, Ian always comes off like a giddy teenager opening a cool present when he's reviewing stuff. The 20-round pinfire revolver is one of my favorites: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StSyVLW3RB8
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Nov 11, 2016 18:26
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he's got a few on the chauchaut that are really well, including one where he gets to fire one. it's one of the better explanations for why all the stories about it being terrible are wildly overblown.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:29
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Cyrano4747 posted:he's got a few on the chauchaut that are really well, including one where he gets to fire one. Speaking of WWI, there's this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDRRlVElEXI 
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Nov 11, 2016 18:31
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xthetenth posted:Society needs people who understand war without reveling in it. I think this is a solid point. If the only ppl who're knowledgeable about war are in the position of also being in the army, they have a poo poo ton of weird incentives/constraints.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:56
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OwlFancier posted:The breech and cartridge design is really clever, I was wondering how you do a breech without a bolt and a bolt without a cartridge, all without losing your eyebrows. Another example of a "not quite a cartridge" gun was the Agar hand-cranked machine gun.  This one actually doesn't have as much of an excuse as the others, as it was contemporary with metallic cartridges. Rather than using them, it used reloadable steel tubes that would accept a percussion cap and a .58 caliber paper cartridge (or separate powder and bullet, presumably). The empty shells would fall into a pan under the gun and have to be collected and quickly reloaded so they could be put back in the hopper. The early Gatling gun from 1862 did the same thing, but its design was good enough that it stayed around long enough to switch to cartridges. The Agar was prone to overheating and dropped.
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Nov 11, 2016 18:58
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I always grin seeing hopper fed machine guns and I don't know why.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:07
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SeanBeansShako posted:I always grin seeing hopper fed machine guns and I don't know why. How does the quad bofors make you feel then?
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Nov 11, 2016 19:11
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xthetenth posted:How does the quad bofors make you feel then? Very happy.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:11
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chitoryu12 posted:This one actually doesn't have as much of an excuse as the others, as it was contemporary with metallic cartridges. Rather than using them, it used reloadable steel tubes that would accept a percussion cap and a .58 caliber paper cartridge (or separate powder and bullet, presumably). The empty shells would fall into a pan under the gun and have to be collected and quickly reloaded so they could be put back in the hopper. So its loading system was a series of tubes, that's quite ahead of its time.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:15
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xthetenth posted:How does the quad bofors make you feel then? What the gently caress do you need a quad bofors for? Unless you're trying to make some kind of second world war version of the A10 by putting it in a Lancaster? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 19:35
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HEY GAL posted:*gestures to window* :high five: I wrote a friend yesterday saying the same thing. One of the reasons I like history generally is that you learn that what happening right now is not the "worst thing ever", it's actually happened before a bunch of times. It gives you a perspective, and a buffer, against the message of all media which tends to be "this is the worst thing ever to happen."
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Nov 11, 2016 19:38
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Top-notch old-timey craftsmanship / art is really something. I'm seriously thinking about dropping €Texas on a really really nice old painting and if you look closely at what the guys did to make a really really good one pop compared to a mediocre one is just amazing. poo poo like getting tree trunks to look 3D and alive, insane water reflection effects, lighting, or if you compare lazily and quickly tossed on clouds or foliage with expertly done ones. The skill and technical know-how is just basically incomprehensible. I really really want the thing but I basically don't have room for it and it also would be the most expensive single thing I own by a decent margin.OwlFancier posted:Look for some nice communist revolutions that worked and then stop reading before you get to the bit where the CIA overthrows them? Is there such a thing? I read Figes' thing about the Russian Civil War and one of the things I took away from it, hopefully wrongly, was a sense of an ongoing process of progressive and idealistic people being either straight up killed or being made irrelevant by power-hungry and brutal ones. Kinda like those urbane and cool Cairo and Damascus youth from the Arab Spring and now we're back to having a choice between either an Islamist or a military dictatorship. I'm kinda suspicious of revolutions. Nebakenezzer posted::high five: It also kinda gives you exciting new terrible things to worry about possibly being in the future though. aphid_licker fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 19:40
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OwlFancier posted:What the gently caress do you need a quad bofors for? Anti Air defenses on Royal Navy ships!
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Nov 11, 2016 19:42
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SeanBeansShako posted:I always grin seeing hopper fed machine guns and I don't know why. the hopper, op
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Nov 11, 2016 19:41
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OwlFancier posted:What the gently caress do you need a quad bofors for? Close-range anti-aircraft defense on capital ships.
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Nov 11, 2016 19:45
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OwlFancier posted:What the gently caress do you need a quad bofors for? Four is a lucky number when it comes to pew-pewing at fast moving aircraft.  4x Maxim: up to 2200 rpm  2cm FlaK Vierling on a T-34: up to 1800 rpm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-UnealTR-Y ZSU 23/4 Shilka: up to 4000 rpm had Empire opted for quad turbolaser turrets then Empire would have won the battle of Yavin  
Nenonen fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Nov 11, 2016 |
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Nov 11, 2016 19:55
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It's not enough to just shoot down a kamikaze, you have to disintegrate them. More dakka!
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Nov 11, 2016 20:00
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OwlFancier posted:What the gently caress do you need a quad bofors for? Do you have planes flying at you that need to be rendered very unaerodynamic quickly enough that they bleed all their energy into the air rather than you? Thousands of everyday Americans have just this problem. Sign up now for a free director to guide your shots on target! And no, the WWII A-10 carries a 75mm, either the Hs 129 or B-25 G/H, or maybe something like the A-20 or A-26. Maybe just gently caress your timeframe, the AD. Nebakenezzer posted::high five: On the other hand being familiar with just how much effort some things took makes their loss hurt terribly.
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Nov 11, 2016 20:04
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as a soon-to-be purged sexual deviant, i can't help but picture the day this thread's future iteration has arguments about gay purple trump
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