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Some One Piece fans seem to really strongly believe that spirit energy = bad, and it makes them say some silly things about haki. I mean, I'm sympathetic. I'm not a huge fan of spirit energy... but we've got some pretty drat blatant spirit energy here in One Piece. I think it was built up well, and felt nicely mysterious at first... but here it is now. Spirit energy. Denial won't make it go away. We all like this shounen manga with spirit energy in it. That's allowed.
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Aug 22, 2016 01:07
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My favorite part was when characters were doing things we had never seen before, like attacking logias, and the characters were even remarking how unusual their actions were, and people in this very thread were arguing that no, they just REALLY REALLY wanted to hit the logias, because guys, One Piece has always been about willpower! Luffy just has to WANT it enough! Or the guy who said haki was the new nakama, just the word willpower untranslated, and it was akin to Zoro swinging a sword, that he was WILLING his desire into action.
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Aug 22, 2016 01:13
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i def think oda could have downplayed haki what with being like "my attack will win if my haki is strong". just like have two dudes do the haki thing and fight and whoever wins we're like ok cool willpower magic is neat. its a neat kind of magic that makes perfect sense in shonen and fits the themes of it. but i hate overexplaining magic when you can usually have the underlying maintain their mystery so long as you have the limitations built in.
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Aug 22, 2016 01:17
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One Piece also has literal power levels. Fukuro is still out there, he could show up and get hit by the Strawhats and the Emperors and the Admirals and end everyone's stupid arguments about bounties and ranks forever!
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Aug 22, 2016 01:19
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Advice posted:My favorite part was when characters were doing things we had never seen before, like attacking logias, and the characters were even remarking how unusual their actions were, and people in this very thread were arguing that no, they just REALLY REALLY wanted to hit the logias, because guys, One Piece has always been about willpower! Luffy just has to WANT it enough! My favorite part of that nonsense was that Zorac was totally behind these arguments and threatened to probate someone for disagreeing. I started out in the anti-power levels crowd but it has long been clear that's where this has gone.
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Aug 22, 2016 01:27
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To be fair to Zorak, this thread was eating itself alive over what amounted to translation issues, and nobody wants another ten pages of nakama discussion. I'm overjoyed that we got what we got; I was on board with magic psychic armor from the beginning. The alternative people were postulating sounded like a very slippery slope into having fights be Bleachlike, that is, poo poo works because Oda says so, not for any satisfying or logical reason. Luffy's lightning resistance is a great example of clever plot devices you could almost have seen coming, it makes so much sense.
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Aug 22, 2016 01:38
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Not going to lie, I usually just lurk around but arguments about One Piece can get fuckin vicious
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Aug 22, 2016 01:54
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Well at the time it was me that was threatened, because I said haki was chakra, and also because I didn't like punk hazard and got yelled at a lot for that because people thought I was trolling about one piece but this wasn't the case, as I think currently it is fully sick
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Aug 22, 2016 03:04
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I think that people were so used to the idea that ki can be used in a variety of ways (for example, in Naruto chakra can be used for many kinds of jutsu from elemental stuff to mind-breaking illusions, or even in Dragon Ball ki was used for many different kinds of techniques that differed from one another) that Haki seemed too simplistic (armor, observation, king) in comparison.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:19
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Chi, C'hi, Qi, Ki, etc. is just punchmagic. Chakra is Naruto brand name punchmagic. The reason why Haki was controversial was because it introduced a new kind of punchmagic to a series that had already established magic with its own internal consistency. And it was introduced primarily to allow the most powerful of the established magic users, Logia-types, to be defeated in a way that didn't have to rely on creatively dealing with their elemental properties.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:28
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T.G. Xarbala posted:Chi, C'hi, Qi, Ki, etc. is just punchmagic. Chakra is Naruto brand name punchmagic. Or at least pretty drat hard to write around eventually. Especially once we get to the new world with the most awesomely powerful people. Do they all have logias? Or do all the people without a logia constantly engage in puzzle solving battles whenever they run into one? At a certain point the puzzle solving would become routine. Every yonkou would have elemental specialists who could tell them how materials interact so they could guess at the random poo poo they'd have to throw at this upstart punk to actually hit the bugger. Either that or absolutely everyone would have seastone weapons. Magic spirit power was probably a more interesting and satisfying way to go, to be honest. Crocodile and Enel were fantastic in their context, and the difficulty they posed made sense for where in the world they were, but the world couldn't coherently support that kind of bullshit all the way to the top.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:41
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to be clear, i think haki punchmagic has a very important role later on (people inherit wills, and it seems like peoples wills being more powerful and influencing the world is sort of a theme, the execution of will being interchangeable with dream in some cases). like you can use your will to literally manipulate reality. i think dfs are the will of Things and thats sort of why everything has a voice etc etc
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Aug 22, 2016 03:42
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Eiba posted:Crocodile and Enel were fantastic in their context, and the difficulty they posed made sense for where in the world they were, but the world couldn't coherently support that kind of bullshit all the way to the top. i mean, if logias are a thing and will isnt as big of a deal as it might be in the future, i dont necessarily think logias were a mistake, just that logais were introduced wayyyyyyy too quickly. i think oda got caught up in the excitement and thought hed end the series faster tho.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:43
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Yeah, haki can be worked into the themes of the story so I'm pretty okay with it, to be honest.Eiba posted:Logias were a mistake. I actually kind of agree, too. So it makes sense that it was first properly introduced in an encounter with what would otherwise be a ludicrously broken Logia (hey guys, I'm Admiral Kizaru and I'm literally Lasers,  ), and it lets a seemingly non-powered veteran actually shut down a Logia user just completely. Also illustrating why and how even non-df using members of Gol D Roger's crew are still a big deal.It's good that haki's also woven into the fighting styles of established df users, too. Luffy's use of haki has basically been to knock out non-issue chumps by sheer virtue of boss-ness and also to allow him to be Rubbery But Even Moreso.
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Aug 22, 2016 03:54
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T.G. Xarbala posted:seemingly Just FYI, dude was swimming, we're confirmed on this.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:19
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Advice posted:Just FYI, dude was swimming, we're confirmed on this. I mean "seemingly" as in I don't think we had any indication haki was even a thing at that point besides the fact that non-DF magic martial arts exist. And I'd definitely count haki, and its derivative fighting styles, as a kind of power by this point.
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Aug 22, 2016 04:30
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Advice posted:My favorite part was when characters were doing things we had never seen before, like attacking logias, and the characters were even remarking how unusual their actions were, and people in this very thread were arguing that no, they just REALLY REALLY wanted to hit the logias, because guys, One Piece has always been about willpower! Luffy just has to WANT it enough! I mean it seems to me like Haki is basically chi generated by determination and willpower and yeah it makes sense that you can run out because exerting your willpower and determination is exausting
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Aug 22, 2016 08:49
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It's like chakra in naruto but with fewer kinds. Honestly it's probably mostly there bc logias became a pain in the rear end to write around. Which is a shame I think but it's not really the worst thing ever
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Aug 22, 2016 09:31
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Logias are a good idea because they are seemingly the ones who always really lean on their powers more than guile and get punked by other dfs because of it. There hasn't really been much noticeable power creep throughout. I mean sure, you got your Buggys and the like, but Crocodile the first really major villain, is still a world renowned pirate and holds his own against big whigs still. Same for other villains encountered through. Enel, had he wanted to doo something other than fly off to the moon, would have been a major power player as well.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:27
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And to be fair, Buggy didn't become a big deal because of power creep.
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Aug 22, 2016 14:49
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My only real confusion about Haki comes from where it allows you to hit Logias, and a lack of people trying that in the Great War over Ace; then the idea that these people can definitely do it but it doesn't negate Logia types entirely. Luffy uses it in a convincing way, but if Luffy were to use it against Crocodile, would he then just obliterate him? I don't remember a really tough fight in the New World yet against a Logia. Monet realized how hopelessly outclassed she was by Zoro and decided to shift gears and just stall instead
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Aug 22, 2016 15:51
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tbp posted:It's like chakra in naruto but with fewer kinds. Honestly it's probably mostly there bc logias became a pain in the rear end to write around. Which is a shame I think but it's not really the worst thing ever Yeah, haki is no dumber than some of the workarounds people were suggesting for defeating logias. Sanji will defeat Kizaru because his black suit absorbs light!! 
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Aug 22, 2016 15:53
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RealFoxy posted:My only real confusion about Haki comes from where it allows you to hit Logias, and a lack of people trying that in the Great War over Ace; then the idea that these people can definitely do it but it doesn't negate Logia types entirely. Luffy uses it in a convincing way, but if Luffy were to use it against Crocodile, would he then just obliterate him? Doflamingo not using Color of Armaments against Crocodile was odd. Actually, given all the water around, he should have been able to defeat Crocodile pretty easily even without Color of Armaments, even allowing for Crocodile becoming faster, tougher, etc. while in Impel Down. I think Doflamingo just wasn't fighting very seriously there. Same goes for Mihawk; even if Color of Armaments didn't make his slashes hurt Buggy, he could have defeated Buggy with a punch if he'd really wanted to.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:29
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Star Platinum posted:Yeah, haki is no dumber than some of the workarounds people were suggesting for defeating logias. Sanji will defeat Kizaru because his black suit absorbs light!! ideally he's beaten by usopp and an elaborate array of mirrors
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Aug 22, 2016 16:31
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RealFoxy posted:My only real confusion about Haki comes from where it allows you to hit Logias, and a lack of people trying that in the Great War over Ace; then the idea that these people can definitely do it but it doesn't negate Logia types entirely. Luffy uses it in a convincing way, but if Luffy were to use it against Crocodile, would he then just obliterate him? Kuzan showed up a little at the end of Punk Hazard, and Caesar Clown is a logia, albeit a poorly implemented one. He is potentially one of the most dangerous people in the world considering he can literally control an entire phase of matter.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:34
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RealFoxy posted:My only real confusion about Haki comes from where it allows you to hit Logias, and a lack of people trying that in the Great War over Ace; then the idea that these people can definitely do it but it doesn't negate Logia types entirely. Luffy uses it in a convincing way, but if Luffy were to use it against Crocodile, would he then just obliterate him? I can't really think of a reason that people in the Great War would spontaneously forget to use their Haki, but for the Crocodile example, if you had current Luffy go back in time and face Crocodile as he was at the time, Luffy would probably win pretty handily--having a Logia rockets you to a pretty incredible level of power, but there is the consequence that they're probably not going to be ready to deal with an opponent who can actually hit them (and with Crocodile in particular, I'm guessing Haki would probably stop his ability to desiccate you). Now, if you assume that Crocodile is aware or Haki, and hasn't been sitting on his rear end during the timeskip, he'd stand a much better chance, because he'd have changed up his tactics to counter it--he wouldn't just be using the Logia to tank hits, he'd be actively distorting his body to avoid them entirely, and probably be spending a lot more time overall in sand form, kind of like how Caesar frequently has most of his body as a gas.
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Aug 22, 2016 16:39
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the best thing haki ever did was make bounceman look incredible. everything else... 
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Aug 22, 2016 16:54
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anime was right posted:at least now i know why goons love brandon sanderson so much. Well, I know I read him for the dadjokes.
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Aug 22, 2016 17:20
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Silver2195 posted:Doflamingo not using Color of Armaments against Crocodile was odd. Actually, given all the water around, he should have been able to defeat Crocodile pretty easily even without Color of Armaments, even allowing for Crocodile becoming faster, tougher, etc. while in Impel Down. I think Doflamingo just wasn't fighting very seriously there. Same goes for Mihawk; even if Color of Armaments didn't make his slashes hurt Buggy, he could have defeated Buggy with a punch if he'd really wanted to. I was thinking that Doffy just wasn't taking the whole war seriously since the Warlords don't seem too committed to their positions beyond maintaining the title, however, he also cut off Jozu's arm so I'm not sure. I also think that haki doesn't just automagically let you punch any logia you like; you still need to have a similar strength of will to do it, and with Crocodile intent on taking Whitebeard's head you could argue that it would have taken something special to overcome him. I prefer haki being something of an undefined quantity because it allows Oda more liberty in resolving conflict while still involving interesting powers like people made of fire, or allowing people to block swords with their bare hands. It also lets cool moments to happen like Zoro causing Monet to mentally collapse by exhibiting "killing intent" toward her while cutting. We don't need to quantify killing intent or explain how it works so I feel the same applies to haki.
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Aug 22, 2016 18:10
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Crocodile was aware of haki during Alabasta, just wasn't expecting it. When Luffy first punched him at the palace, Croc said something on the lines of "no, has he actually equipped.....", then calmed down when Luffy showed his tank of water.
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Aug 22, 2016 18:33
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there was also no reason for crocodile to use it really so its not like that was a minor plot hole either
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Aug 22, 2016 19:51
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I mean to be honest guys I'm pretty sure Oda just had no idea what haki was yet or how he wanted to incorporate it. I really don't think he had haki all figured out at Alabasta or honestly at all before the timeskip. Maybe he had a couple ideas like when Sentoumaru was fighting Luffy but the black coloring really indicates he came into a couple new ideas after the break.
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Aug 22, 2016 20:36
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Advice posted:I mean to be honest guys I'm pretty sure Oda just had no idea what haki was yet or how he wanted to incorporate it. I really don't think he had haki all figured out at Alabasta or honestly at all before the timeskip. Maybe he had a couple ideas like when Sentoumaru was fighting Luffy but the black coloring really indicates he came into a couple new ideas after the break. first chapter but he probably hadn't gone "well haki has 3 colors and-"
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Aug 22, 2016 20:52
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anime was right posted:first chapter I've seen taste and other aspects described as 'colors' in Japanese as well. One of One Piece's key themes is will power, so it makes sense as the series progresses characters find ways to manifest their own will to create cool fights. I sincerely don't understand why people have trouble with this really simple concept. I guess if you're coming to One Piece with Hunter X Hunter logic, or Naruto Logic, it can be kinda baffling, but One Piece's internal logic is more of a milieu of ideals, gags, and melodrama.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:02
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the better word in english might be shades but i dont speak japanese so its hard to say
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Aug 22, 2016 21:20
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Space-Bird posted:I guess if you're coming to One Piece with Hunter X Hunter logic, or Naruto Logic, it can be kinda baffling, but One Piece's internal logic is more of a milieu of ideals, gags, and melodrama. Yes, OP's powers are basically one big literalism joke. Sanji combusts himself through burning passion. Zoro makes himself understood with a sword in his mouth because he speaks from the heart. People triumph over impossible odds through actual will power. Et cetera.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:22
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anime was right posted:first chapter Actually I'm gonna fight you on this one. As I said, Oda may have had inklings but Shanks' Badass Stare was definitely not always Color of Conqueror. In fact, in the first One Piece game, it's a special move only Shanks has that deals damage, like a ranged attack. Add to this that the sea king from Chap 1 retreats instead of passing out, and you can at least agree that what it was evolved over time. Edit: and by first One Piece game I mean the first Grand Battle game. Probably not the first game ever.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:26
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Advice posted:Actually I'm gonna fight you on this one. As I said, Oda may have had inklings but Shanks' Badass Stare was definitely not always Color of Conqueror. In fact, in the first One Piece game, it's a special move only Shanks has that deals damage, like a ranged attack. Add to this that the sea king from Chap 1 retreats instead of passing out, and you can at least agree that what it was evolved over time. One Piece is coming up on like what, 18 years? It's definitely just a refinement on an extremely formative scene, which is ok. I'd take that over endless reboots, or whatever happened to Dragon Ball. We're not talking about a tight narrative here...it's One Piece, the sprawling evolution is half the fun.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:34
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Oh, and nobody's complaining about it. I'm simply offering an alternate explanation for people wondering why Croc didn't use or expect haki, and I'm saying it just didn't exist yet. Maybe some people get bothered by this and want to retroactively explain the early parts of the story, but it just doesn't bother me to think of the OP world as literally evolving as Oda sees fit.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:37
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Haki is cool and a necessary plot device to let people fight broken Devil Fruits like being able to hit logias and block Law's attacks. There's really nothing more to it besides the fancy black sheen to show Luffy's using it.
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Aug 22, 2016 21:37
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