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spatula posted:Another company I was waiting on got back to me with a much better offer, today I asked them for a 10k signing bonus "to sign today" and ended up with an extra 10k on my base salary instead. Ended up being $195k base + equity in RSUs ($285k new hire grant w/ 1yr cliff, $95k annual refresher based on performance). They had initially given me a base range of $140-178k telling me the end of the range would be hard to get approved, I basically said "lol that sucks" and I wasn't expecting them to do much better, but I'm glad I was wrong! Congrats spatula. Care to tell us a bit more about your skillset or niche (without too much info) that enabled you to land this kickass offer? I am struggling to reach numbers that are much lower than other posters so I am always on the lookout for ways (highly demanded skills to learn etc.) to increase that potential. I am very anxious of leaving a comfortable place and having to prove myself with new people, though, so I have to get over that as well. Inner Light fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Feb 23, 2022 |
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Feb 23, 2022 01:59
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spatula posted:Another company I was waiting on got back to me with a much better offer, today I asked them for a 10k signing bonus "to sign today" and ended up with an extra 10k on my base salary instead. Ended up being $195k base + equity in RSUs ($285k new hire grant w/ 1yr cliff, $95k annual refresher based on performance). They had initially given me a base range of $140-178k telling me the end of the range would be hard to get approved, I basically said "lol that sucks" and I wasn't expecting them to do much better, but I'm glad I was wrong! hell yeah! i hope that you feel empowered to do the same (or more) in the future when you change jobs! don't worry about other people's money too much, if you can. you are making a lot of money relative to most people in the world or country. i am now making substantially less money than a bunch of my friends and peers but am able to center it through a) making more money than i ever thought i would in my life and b) the fact that money is not an impediment to anything i want to do and c)
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Feb 23, 2022 02:18
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Thanks y'all  Inner Light posted:Congrats spatula. Care to tell us a bit more about your skillset or niche (without too much info) that enabled you to land this kickass offer? Of course! The first thing that helped me is living in the NYC metropolitan area, lol. Other than that I'm mostly a Javascript engineer - I specialize in frontend web dev, but have functioned more as a full stack engineer in my last few roles. Been at it for about 8 years after attending a code bootcamp in 2014. I'm pretty good at live coding in interviews - talking my way through algorithms as I figure it out. Back when code bootcamps got big, there was a lot of talk about the market getting saturated with engineers and lowering salaries -- that hasn't happened, and I doubt it ever will. Being a WOC probably helps me get initial interviews, but probably doesn't help otherwise.
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Feb 23, 2022 02:31
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Congratulations, spatula!!! For women (or anyone interested), the negotiation seminar I was talking about is tomorrow at 1pm EST https://www.jamieleecoach.com
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Feb 23, 2022 03:06
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i like nice words
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Long-time listener, first time caller. I’ve had a series of operational and management roles over the last decade or so that were great for experience but didn’t result in the pay increases I’d like. This was also partially due to my unwillingness to leave the comfortable environs working for friends of mine in situations where I was familiar either with the work directly or with the people I’d be working with. After realizing I was likely taking home less money in 2021 ($54K/yr) than I functionally did in 2011 ($46K), I started applying to jobs last fall to a range of positions that I felt my experience would work well in and used tips I’d picked up from this thread, specifically not naming a number or a range. My BATNA wasn’t great but it wasn’t terrible, as I wasn’t in immediate danger of unemployment and could continue working where I was at. After several interviews I got to the offer stage with a company and a role I could really see myself excelling in. They offered a *significant* raise in pay over anything I’ve ever made before. “Old me” without this thread would have not only signed for that number, but probably would have been willing to take $20K less than what they offered. I swallowed hard, opened my email and told them I’d be happy to sign that day for $20K a year more. I didn’t get that, but they did come up another $10K. I started my new job yesterday for $110,000 a year, more than double what I was making before. Always negotiate. Good companies won’t punish you for it. You have to be willing to leave to get significant pay raises. I was never going to get what I was worth working for the same people. Literally a life-changing thread to read and worth every penny of the $10 I paid many, many years ago. Thanks, goons.
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Feb 24, 2022 07:19
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Referee posted:Long-time listener, first time caller. 
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Feb 24, 2022 13:53
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Referee posted:Literally a life-changing thread to read and worth every penny of the $10 I paid many, many years ago. Thanks, goons. Dang dude, that's a nice story. I cringed to hear your decade-long stretch at declining real wages but you caught up nicely. Another good lesson, don't let your current salary dictate your next one. You can and people do catch up in one move.
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Feb 24, 2022 14:21
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Congrats Referee!!!
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Feb 24, 2022 15:23
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Referee posted:Long-time listener, first time caller.  hell yeah
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Feb 24, 2022 15:42
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 nicely done goon buddy
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Feb 24, 2022 16:45
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Awesome story! 
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Feb 24, 2022 16:54
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Magnetic North posted:I had an interesting interaction with a recruiter this week. He asked for a range, I told him basically "I heard you're not supposed to say a number" and he said, "Fair enough. If I had an offer of $X or $Y, should I send those to you?" The numbers were ones I could see myself accepting so I didn't really know how to respond. After a few seconds, I said something like "I guess just send them regardless of the number. I can't guarantee that I'll accept, since that would be akin to saying a number." We moved on after that. Not sure if that was the right response, but he did send me on to the next interview so he didn't ghost me for it. If the alternative was you saying a number lower than the max they're willing to pay, then yeah I think you did a pretty good job, you didn't lose any ground in early stage negotiations, which was the goal 
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Feb 24, 2022 17:27
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Referee posted:Literally a life-changing thread to read and worth every penny of the $10 I paid many, many years ago. Thanks, goons. 
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Feb 24, 2022 18:25
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Salami Surgeon posted:I didn't want to post actual numbers. Comparing this to an internal move I just turned down, offer is base+10% and up to 15% bonus. Update on this, they came up another 10% (so +20% base) and added ~4% guaranteed bonus for two years. PTO would be 3 or 4 weeks vs 7 for me now. Still waiting for it in writing. The recruiter is texting me to consider the growth potential lol
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Feb 25, 2022 00:43
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4 weeks PTO is worth 10% right there. Offer still seems pretty weak to me from a comp perspective.
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Feb 25, 2022 14:47
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Yeah don’t discount the value of PTO
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Feb 25, 2022 14:53
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It's not great, but it does allow me to leave my current job and also put something decent on my resume. I'm on the fence.
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Feb 25, 2022 20:06
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Speaking of PTO, how does a job seeker value a place with so-called "unlimited PTO"?
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Feb 25, 2022 20:34
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Consider it to be "as much as my last job, and be ready to leave if you get pushback on that number". The main benefit is to the company, so as to not pay out pto when someone leaves. Generally treat it as a negative, and ask questions during interviewing to try to get a sense whether there is pushback when they approach whatever number you want.
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Feb 25, 2022 20:43
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Magnetic North posted:Speaking of PTO, how does a job seeker value a place with so-called "unlimited PTO"? Negatively. You have to assume it works out to maybe 10 days of PTO and only usable when it's convenient for your boss.
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Feb 25, 2022 21:22
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Eric the Mauve posted:Negatively. You have to assume it works out to maybe 10 days of PTO and only usable when it's convenient for your boss. It could absolutely be better than this, but you cannot assume that it will be.
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Feb 25, 2022 21:25
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I think most people who post here have talked about how it's generally been more or less like any other company's PTO. Even if you get 6 weeks nothing is stopping a company from denying the PTO and then calling it "Use it or lose it" either. So like anything, you'll need to get a feel for how they do it.Salami Surgeon posted:It's not great, but it does allow me to leave my current job and also put something decent on my resume. I'm on the fence. There's stuff beyond money that you need to balance and this forum is going to not be very good at telling you how to balance those things.
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Feb 25, 2022 21:41
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Magnetic North posted:Speaking of PTO, how does a job seeker value a place with so-called "unlimited PTO"? This can depend heavily on your particular manager. Ask them how much time off is typical. My department does unlimited, although most of the company has pretty stingy PTO. In interviews, I tell candidates most people take 5 or 6 weeks and that everyone on my team is required to take at least 2.
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Feb 25, 2022 21:43
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Lockback posted:I think most people who post here have talked about how it's generally been more or less like any other company's PTO. Even if you get 6 weeks nothing is stopping a company from denying the PTO and then calling it "Use it or lose it" either. So like anything, you'll need to get a feel for how they do it. The difference is you don't get a nice bonus when you leave, having never used your PTO.
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Feb 25, 2022 21:55
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leper khan posted:The difference is you don't get a nice bonus when you leave, having never used your PTO. plenty of places are use or lose on PTO or have a PTO decay policy even if leave is declined
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Feb 25, 2022 21:59
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:plenty of places are use or lose on PTO or have a PTO decay policy even if leave is declined They still have to keep your PTO balance on the books and give it to you when leaving the company.
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Feb 25, 2022 22:50
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The idea of not having a statutory entitlement to paid leave is just  to me. How do you put up with it?
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Feb 25, 2022 23:09
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Arquinsiel posted:The idea of not having a statutory entitlement to paid leave is just Haven't had the manager title for the two years I want before moving on yet.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:19
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Okay but... it's statutory. Managers get it too everywhere I've worked.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:32
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Arquinsiel posted:Okay but... it's statutory. Managers get it too everywhere I've worked. Sure. But I'd like to keep my title when I leave this place. You asked how I put up with it.
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Feb 25, 2022 23:56
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I have "unlimited" time off and it works out to probably 4 weeks a year. But that entirely depends on company culture, and you don't get a leave payout, so... My old place was 8 weeks a year 
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Feb 26, 2022 04:04
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A big issue with unlimited vacation is that it flips the dynamic. You no longer have a bank of hours that are yours to take and any sort of decay or cap is pressure to use them. You have to request time off against a theoretical limit and you probably don't want to push it since it may reflect badly on you. This applies even if your manager is great and obviously is terrible in the worst case where unlimited means zero.
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Feb 26, 2022 04:57
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I think the most i've ever taken with "unlimited PTO" is about 3 weeks per year. I worked at an old skool finance company in a previous life, and got 21 business days (5 weeks) and used 100% of that every year. There was also some company policy that you had to take two weeks off in a row to ensure there was no bus factor, particularly with anything that dealt with real time trading and/or processing relating to settling trades at the end of day Unlimited PTO is a huge scam and if you get more than "two weeks" you're doing pretty good Last fall my boss took off the entire month of August, though. So it can work. With WFH and pandemic brain drain C suite has mandated people take at least one full week off each half of the year, mainly to avoid burnout and turnover, which... is a peverted silver lining, but i'll take it The only reason anyone offers (or at least, why it became popular about 7-8 years ago,) unlimited PTO is because startups can't afford to pay out vacation when they downsize, and it's easy to see employees taking less PTO and also the double benefit of not having to pay it out when they leave (on their terms or yours)
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Feb 26, 2022 05:16
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Nobody wants to stick out as the guy who takes the most vacation days on their team so there's a general ratcheting down of time taken off as people base their ideas of "not abusing the system" by observing their coworkers. UPTO is a scam. One big reason companies like it is for accounting reasons - unused PTO counts as a liability and can grow to a pretty big number, so simply doing away with tracked PTO altogether genuinely boosts the bottom line.
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Feb 26, 2022 05:24
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It's a pretty big tell if your company switches to UPTO they may be looking to get bought by cutting the liabilities. Happened to me twice!
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Feb 26, 2022 05:31
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Okay, so, goons seem to be saying my fears are correct, but how do I actually approach it? Just straight up numerically? Do I just assume it's zero? It's unlikely it's actually literally zero, but it sounds like there is no way to get a better number. If I currently make one crisp dollar bill every year and have 4 weeks vacation, that means I'm getting paid $1 / (52-4) or 2.08 cents weekly. Whereas if I get offered a job where I make an additional quarter each year but it's UPTO, do I just say $1.25 / 52 = 2.4 cents weekly, which would only be a 13.7% raise (2.4/2.11 = 1.137) compared even though on the surface it sounds like a 25% raise? Also, when and how do I ask about the the culture around the time off? In interviews? While negotiating?
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Feb 26, 2022 09:40
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leper khan posted:They still have to keep your PTO balance on the books and give it to you when leaving the company. only true in some jurisdictions
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Feb 26, 2022 15:08
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Magnetic North posted:Okay, so, goons seem to be saying my fears are correct, but how do I actually approach it? Just straight up numerically? Do I just assume it's zero? It's unlikely it's actually literally zero, but it sounds like there is no way to get a better number. Ask people you know who work there outside of the interview process if possible but this is absolutely a fair question that you should ask of interviewers. “I’ve never worked somewhere with UTPO, can you help me understand what that looks like? I currently take 4 weeks off every year, is that expectation normal for this place? How much time did you take off last year? Etc”
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Feb 26, 2022 15:16
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My company doesn't have unlimited PTO, but we also disallowed carryover anymore several years ago. So as a compromise, they changed to a system where they give it all to you for the year on Jan 1 (that way you can still take large vacations early in the year), but they won't let any balance out if you leave the company (unless local law disalows that)
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Feb 26, 2022 18:04
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leper khan posted:Sure. But I'd like to keep my title when I leave this place. You asked how I put up with it.
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Feb 26, 2022 21:15
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