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Nebakenezzer posted:Tankchat: I remember reading (someplace) that the 128 on the Jagdtiger was actually a different gun from the 128 mm anti-air; the Germans actually developed two different guns with the same caliber? Kind of a hobby for them.
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Nov 12, 2016 01:30
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Nebakenezzer posted:Tankchat: I remember reading (someplace) that the 128 on the Jagdtiger was actually a different gun from the 128 mm anti-air; the Germans actually developed two different guns with the same caliber? Hahaha I just looked it up to check and of course it was.
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Nov 12, 2016 01:39
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Often the barrel of the gun is the only thing that migrates over into the tank version. For example, the Soviet 85 mm D-5T and S-53 were both based on the 52-K 85 mm AA gun, but the S-53 was much more compact. There were also other 85 mm guns with different breech designs but identical ballistics that were not put into production.
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Nov 12, 2016 01:42
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Zamboni Apocalypse posted:Next step is Ontos II using eight GAU-8 Avengers. :ork101: The most Marines thing that was tested was a variant LCAC with 4x GAU-13/A 30mm gatling guns mounted in cargo containers. I guess the idea was the thing would circle-strafe laying down heavy autocannon fire during Iwo Jima II: More Jima. I know I saw an actual reference for it at some point, but at this point all I have is a Foxtrot Alpha article.
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Nov 12, 2016 01:48
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Ensign Expendable posted:Often the barrel of the gun is the only thing that migrates over into the tank version. For example, the Soviet 85 mm D-5T and S-53 were both based on the 52-K 85 mm AA gun, but the S-53 was much more compact. There were also other 85 mm guns with different breech designs but identical ballistics that were not put into production. What are the tradeoffs made by artillery and AA versions of a gun's breech? Tank guns would optimize for a smaller breech and recoil space, I'd guess but I have no idea about the others.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:00
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AA guns aren't really my specialty, so I haven't read into the caveats of designing one. I guess you need to keep in mind that you'll be working with very high gun elevation, so the breech has to be high up enough to not smack the ground every time you fire.
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Nov 12, 2016 02:38
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I love using the... Shilka? Tunguska? as an anti-infantry platform in Battlefield. As an added bonus, you're immune to snipers, and you get to inconvenience fliers!
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Nov 12, 2016 11:05
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Acebuckeye13 posted:It's pretty much indisputable that the Rebellion would have been better off if they'd stuck with the Y-Wing instead of constantly developing expensive and unreliable fighters like the A-Wing or B-Wing. That said I think the X-Wing was a decent midway point between the Y-wings and the overly experimental B and A-series fighters. I mean, the design itself was basically an upgunned, upshielded version of the old Z-95 (which I think predated the Y's by like a decade or something) with factory-standard hyperdrives and space for an astromech droid. I mean, even basic TIES could run loops around a Y-wing, and even if they were shielded all to gently caress (later variants of the Y definitely were), they couldn't really line up shots on the drat eyeballs, even if they managed to pull off a decent Antilles Weave. The X-wing was just fast enough to pop the TIES, and just shielded enough to survive a few hits. A p. good compromise if you ask me. E: god-dammit, I thought we were still doing Star Wars milhist. Didn't notice the new page.
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Nov 12, 2016 11:50
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Grand Prize Winner posted:That said I think the X-Wing was a decent midway point between the Y-wings and the overly experimental B and A-series fighters. I mean, the design itself was basically an upgunned, upshielded version of the old Z-95 (which I think predated the Y's by like a decade or something) with factory-standard hyperdrives and space for an astromech droid. If the rebels had just put twin-laser turrets on all their Y-wings they would have won quite easily because they had no need to dogfight. Take off the dinky ion canon.
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Nov 12, 2016 12:30
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Grand Prize Winner posted:That said I think the X-Wing was a decent midway point between the Y-wings and the overly experimental B and A-series fighters. I mean, the design itself was basically an upgunned, upshielded version of the old Z-95 (which I think predated the Y's by like a decade or something) with factory-standard hyperdrives and space for an astromech droid. Just the fact of having a slot for a needlessly complicated astromech droid when the TIE fighters had greater maneuverability and fighter on fighter capabilities tells you all you need to know. A starfighter doesn't need hyperdrive, and it can't possibly take on full ships when the Interdictor-class is the norm for the Empire. A proper Alliance fighter would carry out area defence to let the star cruisers do their job, not whatever the X-wing is supposed to do. It's the classic fighter designed by committee: jack of all trades and master of none.
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Nov 12, 2016 12:39
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Panzeh posted:If the rebels had just put twin-laser turrets on all their Y-wings they would have won quite easily because they had no need to dogfight. Take off the dinky ion canon. that's fair, but if they actually fire 'em more than once every minute or so it'd gently caress their accel profiles even more than they already were. Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Just the fact of having a slot for a needlessly complicated astromech droid when the TIE fighters had greater maneuverability and fighter on fighter capabilities tells you all you need to know. A starfighter doesn't need hyperdrive, and it can't possibly take on full ships when the Interdictor-class is the norm for the Empire. A proper Alliance fighter would carry out area defence to let the star cruisers do their job, not whatever the X-wing is supposed to do. It's the classic fighter designed by committee: jack of all trades and master of none. ok I was gonna just drop this thing but dude, you're way too focused on those setpiece battles that the drat Imperials liked so much. Yeah, when you're hauling multiple wings on your Victory-class or whatevs you're gonna have a numbers advantage and a real savings compared to a flight of x-wings. But what about Freighter G-412, carrying a load of war materiel from the Coruscant junction to Corellia? Freighter G-412 isn't going to have hangar space. Probably doesn't even have a hangar. Two X-wings, or even a solitary Y-wing, find out that G-412 is making a 1 day stopover near Nar Shadda. G-412 is hosed when them fighters pop back into realspace on its tail. I mean nowadays everyone always talks about Endor or Yavin or Hoth or whatever, but that's a load of banthashit and we all know it. It was economic interdiction that won the war for the Rebel Alliance, and it was fighters with hyperdrives, shields, and decent astromechs that let them do it. What are the TIE-D and similar later spaceframes but an attempt to emulate the X-Wing on a more familiar platform? e: actually, the Empire's failure to really come up with a decent convoy system could probably bear more discussion. How'd they screw it up that bad, always sending their logistics out in dribs and drabs? a convoy of 5-7 freighters and one older star destroyer probably could have gotten everything through safely. A few TIE pilots lost in every ambuscade, sure, but there were always plenty more. Grand Prize Winner fucked around with this message at 12:50 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 12:47
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That’s like arguing that giving a swordfish some machinegun turrets would protect it from spitfires. Y wings manoeuvre like a 3 legged hog and replacing their ion turrets with laser turrets wouldn't significantly improve their survivability while removing a very important utility function. Tank chat: How often were 88s used as anti-tank guns? Where they specifically put into position in antitank roles or were they deployed as AA guns and pressed service as AT guns if things got hot.
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Nov 12, 2016 12:50
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Carcer posted:Tank chat: How often were 88s used as anti-tank guns? Where they specifically put into position in antitank roles or were they deployed as AA guns and pressed service as AT guns if things got hot. From my understanding (based on reading this thread and little else), there were 88 AA units and 88 AT units, which were generally expected to do just one job, but either type of unit could be pressed into service for the other duty in a relatively short time. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Nov 12, 2016 12:53
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I think the laser turret thing is just because 4 y wings with twin laser turrets is absolutely dogshit unfun to play against in x wing.
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Nov 12, 2016 13:11
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Grand Prize Winner posted:that's fair, but if they actually fire 'em more than once every minute or so it'd gently caress their accel profiles even more than they already were. I'm focused on the large battles because those are the ones that actually matter when you have a war spanning a political sphere that ecompasses thousands of star systems. Also, the Imperials are poo poo when it comes to the make-up of their fleet. They have TIE fighters, and they have gigantic star destroyers, and very little in between. As a rebel commander, you're not going to get some Imperial equivalent of a Fubuki-class destroyer carrying Long Lance torpedoes loving up your Jutland-in-space kind of day. You're going to have swarms of TIE fighters with their weak-rear end lasers, and maybe some TIE bombers giving you a few scratches and dents. You need swarms of your own fighters to make that annoyance no longer a problem: some deet to hold off the clouds of gnats, while you focus on climbing up the loving mountains. You don't need fighters with astromech droids, hyperdrive, in-atmosphere flight, loving locking s-foils. You need the here and now, and that's loving A-wings. Teriyaki Hairpiece fucked around with this message at 13:45 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 13:39
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Grand Prize Winner posted:From my understanding (based on reading this thread and little else), there were 88 AA units and 88 AT units, which were generally expected to do just one job, but either type of unit could be pressed into service for the other duty in a relatively short time. The Flak version could be used to AT duties, but not the other way around, because the carriage of the Flak version allowed it to be fired as an AT gun, but not vice versa.
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Nov 12, 2016 14:02
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Grand Prize Winner posted:From my understanding (based on reading this thread and little else), there were 88 AA units and 88 AT units, which were generally expected to do just one job, but either type of unit could be pressed into service for the other duty in a relatively short time. I think you confused Army AA and Luftwaffe AA units (because of course the Nazis had two different outfits doing the exact same thing). But both were supposed to be AA units first and foremost, they were just trained to also engage ground targets. Initially that was more consider an OH SCHEISSE PANZER ability, but Rommel in Africa quickly developed a taste for using them as blocking units against tank attacks. As the war progressed, the AA units became more and more dual-role.
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Nov 12, 2016 14:02
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So what is the largest gun used regularly in an anti tank role? At about what size did people decide that drat thing was too big and bulky to use effectively?
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Nov 12, 2016 14:22
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Carcer posted:So what is the largest gun used regularly in an anti tank role? At about what size did people decide that drat thing was too big and bulky to use effectively? Well, the germans had 12.8cm guns, while I remember a report that the 17pdr is considered too unwieldy for use by the soviets, which was a 3" gun.
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Nov 12, 2016 16:06
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I think the 152 in the SU152 was regularly used against tanks, though that wasn't its designed role.
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Nov 12, 2016 16:19
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Is there a before WW2 example of current day nazi military dorks? Or is Germany a weird case where the military that lost horribly gets lionized.
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Nov 12, 2016 17:11
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The Russian still have a 125 mm AT gun in service, the Sprut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprut_anti-tank_gun And the Russian 122mm howitzer has gun sights and HEAT shells for AT purposes.
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Nov 12, 2016 17:12
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KildarX posted:Is there a before WW2 example of current day nazi military dorks? Or is Germany a weird case where the military that lost horribly gets lionized. lost causers?
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Nov 12, 2016 17:14
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KildarX posted:Is there a before WW2 example of current day nazi military dorks? Or is Germany a weird case where the military that lost horribly gets lionized. sorry kyoon griffey jr and seanbeansshako, you know it to be true
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Nov 12, 2016 17:29
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Pornographic Memory posted:lost causers? There was also a strange cult of personality surrounding Napoleon and his Imperial Guard in the late 19th century.
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Nov 12, 2016 17:31
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:I'm focused on the large battles because those are the ones that actually matter when you have a war spanning a political sphere that ecompasses thousands of star systems. Also, the Imperials are poo poo when it comes to the make-up of their fleet. They have TIE fighters, and they have gigantic star destroyers, and very little in between. As a rebel commander, you're not going to get some Imperial equivalent of a Fubuki-class destroyer carrying Long Lance torpedoes loving up your Jutland-in-space kind of day. You're going to have swarms of TIE fighters with their weak-rear end lasers, and maybe some TIE bombers giving you a few scratches and dents. You need swarms of your own fighters to make that annoyance no longer a problem: some deet to hold off the clouds of gnats, while you focus on climbing up the loving mountains. You don't need fighters with astromech droids, hyperdrive, in-atmosphere flight, loving locking s-foils. You need the here and now, and that's loving A-wings. And it was the setpiece battles that won the war for the alliance anyways. The empire had just come out with the TIE Interceptor, which was even faster, while the Alliance was moving back away from the A-wing to the slower B-wing. If it weren't for the Empire's habit of gambling all of its resources on big fancy displays of power in the middle of nowhere out on the outer rim, the Alliance would never have been able to destroy the bulk of the imperial fleet along with the head of the imperial government. And it weren't B, X, or Y-wings that dealt the most damage when capital ships were so tightly packed they could hardly move.
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Nov 12, 2016 17:39
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SlothfulCobra posted:And it was the setpiece battles that won the war for the alliance anyways. The empire had just come out with the TIE Interceptor, which was even faster, while the Alliance was moving back away from the A-wing to the slower B-wing. If it weren't for the Empire's habit of gambling all of its resources on big fancy displays of power in the middle of nowhere out on the outer rim, the Alliance would never have been able to destroy the bulk of the imperial fleet along with the head of the imperial government. And it weren't B, X, or Y-wings that dealt the most damage when capital ships were so tightly packed they could hardly move. Pfft, I see you haven't kept up with the modern historiography. If the war ended with Endor how do you explain the decades following and the major strategic victory/tactical defeat at the Battle of Starkiller base? The alliance might be able to destroy imperial assets but it's logistics and manufacturing capacity that win wars. Don't forget that the targeting computer on the X wing was so inaccurate that pilots were known to turn it off and rely on blind chance and faith in the 'Force'. Ridiculous. Alliance designers didn't recognise this problem. Fangz fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 17:44
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You're all getting deep into Gay White Vader territory here.
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Nov 12, 2016 17:51
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i love everybody in this thread
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Nov 12, 2016 17:52
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Grand Prize Winner posted:that's fair, but if they actually fire 'em more than once every minute or so it'd gently caress their accel profiles even more than they already were. Just replace the fixed weapons- it'll be fine. Carcer posted:That’s like arguing that giving a swordfish some machinegun turrets would protect it from spitfires. Y wings manoeuvre like a 3 legged hog and replacing their ion turrets with laser turrets wouldn't significantly improve their survivability while removing a very important utility function. The utility of a starfighter is delivering ordnance and blowing up enemy starfighters, and a flexible twin-laser turret handles enemy starfighters well. If the Y-wings had been equipped correctly, there's no way Vader could have stopped them. lenoon posted:I think the laser turret thing is just because 4 y wings with twin laser turrets is absolutely dogshit unfun to play against in x wing. Quiet, you.
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Nov 12, 2016 17:57
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Kemper Boyd posted:The Russian still have a 125 mm AT gun in service, the Sprut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprut_anti-tank_gun The Sprut is a bit of a weird example because it can move under its own power. Truly man portable guns maxed out around the 75/76mm guns for almost everyone. It gets to a point the gun itself just gets to god drat heavy/awkward and there's not a whole lot you can do to alleviate that before space age materials science or an APU like the Sprut. The M777 is a good example of how cutting weight is still a big deal (bit of different context but still). Mazz fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Nov 12, 2016 |
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Nov 12, 2016 17:58
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Lot of people in this thread need to read or reread Shattered Lightsaber. Jon Parshall really knows his Star Wars.
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Nov 12, 2016 18:14
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KildarX posted:Is there a before WW2 example of current day nazi military dorks? Or is Germany a weird case where the military that lost horribly gets lionized. Nationalists everywhere remember their lost battles with great fondness, for example the battle of Kosovo Polje is used by Serb nationalists to explain why Kosovo is an inseparable part of Srbija. But others do the same, there just are very few national heroes who never lost a battle to choose from. Remember Alamo!!!
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Nov 12, 2016 18:16
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Lionizing losers talk got me thinking about the Nibelungenlied and I felt that it had a distinctly 19th century made up history feel to it but reading up on it it's no poo poo 13th century vintage. It seems probable that the version I read as a kid was a reprint of a 19th century translation/reimagination of the matter, which may go some way towards explaining my impression. I'd have to look up the sourcing notes in the book, it's at my parents. Interesting. e: also I'm really curious how I got the idea to read that / who gave it to me
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Nov 12, 2016 18:16
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Nenonen posted:Nationalists everywhere remember their lost battles with great fondness, for example the battle of Kosovo Polje is used by Serb nationalists to explain why Kosovo is an inseparable part of Srbija. Uh... Could people please stop perpetuating this poo poo? The issues about Kosovo are a hell of a lot more complex than that.
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Nov 12, 2016 18:20
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Kemper Boyd posted:The Russian still have a 125 mm AT gun in service, the Sprut: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprut_anti-tank_gun Sprut is not a gun, it's an ATGM launcher that can also be used as an indirect/direct fire artillery piece.
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Nov 12, 2016 18:20
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Panzeh posted:The utility of a starfighter is delivering ordnance and blowing up enemy starfighters, and a flexible twin-laser turret handles enemy starfighters well. If the Y-wings had been equipped correctly, there's no way Vader could have stopped them. The Boulton-Paul Defiant, best fighter of World War 2!
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Nov 12, 2016 18:21
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feedmegin posted:The Boulton-Paul Defiant, best fighter of World War 2! Put that fucker in War Thunder and i'll spade it in a day.
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Nov 12, 2016 18:43
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SlothfulCobra posted:And it was the setpiece battles that won the war for the alliance anyways. The empire had just come out with the TIE Interceptor, which was even faster, while the Alliance was moving back away from the A-wing to the slower B-wing. If it weren't for the Empire's habit of gambling all of its resources on big fancy displays of power in the middle of nowhere out on the outer rim, the Alliance would never have been able to destroy the bulk of the imperial fleet along with the head of the imperial government. And it weren't B, X, or Y-wings that dealt the most damage when capital ships were so tightly packed they could hardly move. The Emperor - and I've said this before - was a terrible planner. He'd make these byzantine plots that often required his enemies to be horrifyingly stupid, and somehow he'd win that bet because...? Weirdly, the one time he comes up with an improbable but decent plan, IE one that had a good chance of working if the rebs fell for it, it somehow goes all pear-shaped. Yeah, if you could lure the entire rebel fleet to a single engagement, secretly build a fully functional Death Star class space fortification, and then secretly move the bulk of the Imperial fleet to be a hammer to the Death Star's anvil, then, yes, you could take out the entire rebel fleet. I mean, dumb plan, but once again, it just happened to work. (Of course, the flaw in that plan is the oft discussed "wildly underestimated the combat skills of a bunch of indigenous teddy bears" so I'll leave it.) I mean, it's like the engagement of Halamans Malbastori, where the Imperial 8th fleet somehow gets infiltrated by some goddamn astromech droids lead by a alien six inches tall, and somehow they get the fleet to bombard the wrong goddamn planet, letting the rebels regroup and then use the mining mass drivers on the nearby moon to smash the fleet's star destroyers. This is a disaster. Somehow the imperials not only lost a fleet, they lost it to six goddamn droids. When Darth Vader breaks the news, Grand Moff Tarkin almost has a stroke, but all Emperor Palpitine does is lean back and smile, like loosing an entire fleet of Star Destroyers plus the ground troops, TIE units etc with them is somehow a big win for him. No wonder Vader used to scream "this is bullshit" at him
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Nov 12, 2016 18:55
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HEY GAL posted:napoleon. Hey now, I'm only slightly at Bonapartist. Like 15%.
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