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temple posted:Wyald was cool. It was a weird place in the story and he was one of the one dimensional demons. It is a relief that he wasn't dragged out for maximize edge lord effect "I'm evil but I'm sad". That's what hurts a lot of stories with emotional focuses because they give everything emotions. Maybe the bad guy just likes being bad because its fun, not because he didn't get enough hugs or dad was hit by a truck on Christmas.
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May 18, 2016 03:19
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Granted, this makes me a huge hypocrite since I really like Ganishka as a villain and his introduction has him dangling women over a pit of demon crocodiles for literally no reason.
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May 18, 2016 03:20
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THere's also the extended scene in Ganishka's intro where pregnant woman are tossed into the mass of apostles to give birth to demon babies, which echoes an almost identical scene in the trolls arc.
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May 18, 2016 03:25
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Daka are hilariously ineffective soldiers considering how cost-prohibitive they are to create.
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May 18, 2016 03:27
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I completely forgot the trolls happened
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May 18, 2016 03:35
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I'm re-reading the Tower of Conviction arc and I forgot how badass Luca is. You go girl.
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May 18, 2016 05:26
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 Oh, hey are you Death? No, I'm possessed suit of armor with a flying horse. Well in that case I've got places I need to be. Bye!
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May 18, 2016 05:51
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Ganishka is a good counter-point to the other apostles because he is so blasé about the atrocities he commits. He doesn't even enjoy it, and probably considers the other apostles posers, like, he's been doing this poo poo since he was a kid.
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May 18, 2016 07:27
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The thing I like about Ganishka is how the narrative corners him into a Macbeth-like situation. He's spent his whole life committing atrocities, murdering thousands, building and consolidating his power, effectively damning himself for the sake of his dark ambitions, then this Griffith dude shows up and he's supposed to stand on bended knee? You mean he did all this, damned under the weight of innumerable sins, just so some other guy could step in to rule the world? It's a fascinating turn, and how Ganishka reacts to it elevates him from being just another cruel despot to an actually kinda compelling character in his own right.
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May 18, 2016 07:50
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I like Ganeshka too, because his demon form is rad, he has an exceptionally poignant and stylish flashback, he works really well with what Griffith has become (that scene with transformed Griffith looming over him, hand outstretched - holy poo poo), his tree transformation is utter insanity the way only Berserk can deliver, and he's got MUCH more depth than you initially expect - because you're led to assume immediately he's "just" a mid-boss. That's one of my favorite things about Berserk. There's hidden depths to even its most depraved characters. It brings humanity to utter monsters, and I feel like a lot of that is due to the utmost care put into setting these guys up. By all accounts, Berserk is exceptionally grimdark, sometimes hilariously so, but I think this sort of storytelling actually makes it work beyond being thrashy fantasy action. It doesn't always hit the mark and veers into goofy/grimdark territory occasionally, but nevermind, perfection
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May 18, 2016 11:58
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I've always thought that was the main appeal of Berserk. It's really badass you read because of the awesome fight scenes between larger than life characters, but these characters also have some depth to them and the story is actually interesting. That's probably why Golden Age hits people so hard, they come in expecting fun gory action, but are then presented with something actually compelling.
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May 18, 2016 12:42
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Bad Seafood posted:Daka are hilariously ineffective soldiers considering how cost-prohibitive they are to create. Meh, they're shown to rip through humans with ease, it's just the elite of the world like Locus and Berserker armor Gutts that murder them by the hundreds. Considering that Ganishka forces adult male civilians he conquers into military service, Daka allow him to create better than human soldiers from women he, under other circumstances wouldn't be able to use. Also I think he just enjoys torturing and annihilating humans and turning them into something grotesque.
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May 18, 2016 15:37
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Normal humans in Berserk... What a (generally short) life. That's what makes Luca so cool. I really liked the interlude with her and the skull knight.
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May 18, 2016 15:53
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I recently finished rereading Berserk after 8 years or so, and as cool as Luca is, the treatment of women in the manga made me quite uncomfortable this time around. The whole Ganiska thing being a rehash of the trolls just made it worse, really. I get that the setting is pretty awful for everyone, but Miura's story really goes to some lengths to torture women. That probably sounds like some backseat analysis of Miura there, but it's nearly as over-the-top as the violence. It just felt so gratuitous to me. Miura does a pretty good job of showing how awful some of the things are by the reaction of the survivors in other spots. I am just not sure seeing any of it was worthwhile. I tell myself the dark fantasy defense, but I just don't find it a very compelling reason to depict that kind of violence against women as often as the story does. Yes, women got raped and worse all the time in medieval warfare, so ignoring it completely is not very honest, but on a reread, it really felt much more relentless than I remembered.
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May 20, 2016 00:40
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I think everything about berserk is meant to be gratuitous, and even though my memory is vague about it all, I do remember thinking that it almost descends into a kind of torture porn in places. Aside from that thought, I'd have to reread it to be more specific. (Except for the Eclipse, which is etched into my memory as a distinct "DO NOT WANT.")
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May 20, 2016 00:57
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Serious Frolicking posted:Wyald was a mistake and his removal was an improvement.
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May 20, 2016 01:11
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Narahari posted:I recently finished rereading Berserk after 8 years or so, and as cool as Luca is, the treatment of women in the manga made me quite uncomfortable this time around. The whole Ganiska thing being a rehash of the trolls just made it worse, really. I get that the setting is pretty awful for everyone, but Miura's story really goes to some lengths to torture women. That probably sounds like some backseat analysis of Miura there, but it's nearly as over-the-top as the violence. It just felt so gratuitous to me. Miura does a pretty good job of showing how awful some of the things are by the reaction of the survivors in other spots. I am just not sure seeing any of it was worthwhile. I tell myself the dark fantasy defense, but I just don't find it a very compelling reason to depict that kind of violence against women as often as the story does. Yes, women got raped and worse all the time in medieval warfare, so ignoring it completely is not very honest, but on a reread, it really felt much more relentless than I remembered. i think its very realistic for better or for worse
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May 20, 2016 01:21
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Rodenthar Drothman posted:everything about berserk is meant to be gratuitous It's this and I think it is a bit silly when people say that the treatment of women in the manga makes them uncomfortable. Obviously it uses rape as a means to shock appall & titillate, but for a story as over-the-top as Berserk it feels absurd to say that every other element of it is completely okay, it's just this one thing keeping it from being approved by the morality police. Nothing about the story is comfortable, it is unapologetically exploitative and edgy. The Eclipse is an emotionally affecting sequence for sure, but its depictions of violence and rape verge on the pornographic. The opening scene of the manga depicts a man having violent sex with a hot babe who then turns into an evil demon, which he seamlessly transitions into slaughtering. This is a Conan the Barbarian reference but it also sets the stage for a portrait of a world and society which is topsy-turvy, amoral and hellish, where sex and murder are inextricably linked, all earthly powers are demonic entities living to torture the innocent, and the whole universe is literally ruled by devils serving the whims of a malevolent God created by human evil and delusion. It's more misanthropic than particularly misogynistic.
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May 20, 2016 01:28
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I don't think berserk has the best writing for its female characters and I think a little too often the female characters and rape are used in kinda sophomoric ways. I love berserk and it's maybe the favorite piece of media I've ever consumed but I can recognize it's not perfect. its rough around the edges in a lot of parts but thats part of the charm. berserk owns
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May 20, 2016 01:38
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"Gratuitous" isn't quite the word, I think. I don't fault anyone for being bothered by the amount of sexual violence in Berserk or how much of it's focused at women, but there's probably a point to it. And, at the same time, "there's a point to it" is not a perfect defense or the final word. Berserk depicts a world in which horrible, senseless things happen all the time. They happen to men and women, but they happen to women disproportionately often, and the women in Berserk are (again, generally) less likely to be the movers and shakers of the story than men. When Miura does write women of power and influence into the story, he often writes them out of it again; Casca is an obvious example but consider also Farnese's arc from "crazy religious enforcer with her own posse of knights" to the sort of meek, embarassed character she is now; it's not bad character writing, it's pretty clear how she got there (although the scene where she has her turning point is itself pretty  ), but it's still part of a pattern.On the other hand possibly the most powerful, kind, and informed character we've met in the world of Berserk is a woman (Flora) and at the same women are just as capable of depravity, sadism, and ambition (Slann exists, along with at least a handful of female Apostles, Farnese has her joy in torturing, etc.) There are a lot of stories in general in Berserk about people making their way any way they can, and the sacrifices they're willing to make, or the corners they'll cut to get there, and that cuts across pretty much every divide, which is cool. So far I've just been talking about narrative, though; there are also differences in depiction. When Berserk depicts men being sexually victimized, it tends to take the victim's perspective visually, and it generally doesn't show very much. When it depicts women being victimized, it tends to either take a drawn-back, omniscient view (Ganishka's dahaka machine) or it takes the perspective of a male onlooker, and it shows you nearly everything (like in the Eclipse -- in fact, that's the whole point of that scene, that Griffith wants Guts to see, and so much of the emphasis is on Guts' rage, fear, and helplessness rather than Casca's.) Basically I don't think Berserk is necessarily hateful or dismissive of women, but it's not very good at inhabiting their perspective, either. (Which, while I don't really like the whole "criticism as psychoanalysis of the author" mode to begin with, admittedly does line up with my impression of Miura.) Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 01:43 on May 20, 2016 |
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May 20, 2016 01:41
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like berserk has a great story with great writing it uses a lot of literary irony and allusions and its got some really cool themes that it builds on beautifully but its a story about a gruff as hell cool dude with a 500 pound sword and a canon arm killing demons so lol if you go in not expecting that level of maturity
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May 20, 2016 01:43
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Women get abused all day and everywhere in the the real world.
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May 20, 2016 02:02
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temple posted:Women get abused all day and everywhere in the the real world. All kinds of things happen in the real world that Berserk doesn't depict, or devotes almost no time to depicting. What it does choose to depict (and how, especially) communicates something, for better or worse.
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May 20, 2016 02:05
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Yeah Berserks main issue is it tends to focus on rape for women a little to much. Plus while I like Casca she uh had her moments were you just go why did you do that.
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May 20, 2016 02:09
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Yeah, realism isn't exactly a good argument for this series. I always just took it as another element of the world being a horrible place, but the specific ways that sexual violence is depicted is sometimes just excessive. Berserk is pulling from lots of different dark fantasy sources and none of them treat women particularly well so part of it just comes with the territory. Frankly I think it's relatively progressive that at least Guts has a horrible rape-filled backstory too. Berserk is still good even if it's not perfect. There's no need for some big elaborate defense of it.
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May 20, 2016 02:14
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I'm just excited to see Puck animated. They better use the chibi version of him as much as the manga does.
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May 20, 2016 02:21
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StalkofWheat posted:I'm just excited to see Puck animated. They better use the chibi version of him as much as the manga does. Puck is so important for Berserk and it's crazy that in all the adaptations of it he only gets a cameo at best. Hopefully at least chestnut Puck won't be CG 
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May 20, 2016 02:26
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apropos to nothing posted:like berserk has a great story with great writing it uses a lot of literary irony and allusions and its got some really cool themes that it builds on beautifully but its a story about a gruff as hell cool dude with a 500 pound sword and a canon arm killing demons so lol if you go in not expecting that level of maturity It's because it's such a great story with great writing that its somewhat poor handling of women is such a glaring issue.
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May 20, 2016 02:32
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The thing Miura really has a hostility to is EYES. You cannot deny it.
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May 20, 2016 02:45
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7c Nickel posted:The thing Miura really has a hostility to is EYES. You cannot deny it. Miura's hatred of eyeballs is nothing compared to Yukito Kishiro's.
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May 20, 2016 03:27
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7c Nickel posted:The thing Miura really has a hostility to is EYES. You cannot deny it. That's a weird way to spell Hirohiko Araki. The only thing he loves more than Italy is horrific violence against eyes
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May 20, 2016 03:59
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Narahari posted:I recently finished rereading Berserk after 8 years or so, and as cool as Luca is, the treatment of women in the manga made me quite uncomfortable this time around. The whole Ganiska thing being a rehash of the trolls just made it worse, really. I get that the setting is pretty awful for everyone, but Miura's story really goes to some lengths to torture women. That probably sounds like some backseat analysis of Miura there, but it's nearly as over-the-top as the violence. It just felt so gratuitous to me. Miura does a pretty good job of showing how awful some of the things are by the reaction of the survivors in other spots. I am just not sure seeing any of it was worthwhile. I tell myself the dark fantasy defense, but I just don't find it a very compelling reason to depict that kind of violence against women as often as the story does. Yes, women got raped and worse all the time in medieval warfare, so ignoring it completely is not very honest, but on a reread, it really felt much more relentless than I remembered. i agree, but don't expect a nuanced understanding of the problem with using rape and sexual violence as a plot device from goons male rape does exist in the berserk universe but it is never shown as explicitly or gratuitously as female rape is. that's more telling than any of the 'but it's a horrible place' arguments imo. Miura's portrayal of women as targets of sexual violence is definitely the worst/weakest part of the manga depicted and i'm glad that he's moved beyond it. Genocyber posted:It's because it's such a great story with great writing that its somewhat poor handling of women is such a glaring issue. a very succinct way of putting it. you don't need to literally depict rape to show its impact on human lives. fury road did a great job of this with the wives.
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May 20, 2016 05:39
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Whenever this subject arises I feel as if a few things get either glossed over or ignored completely in the effort to advance a specific argument, but I should make it clear in preface that I don't, you know, think Berserk needs defending, nor do I think that excessive depictions of rape are good and cool. That said, there is a difference between lascivious depictions of rape, and the sort of illustration where it is meant to disturb and to discomfit, and Berserk usually firmly falls in the latter camp. At no point during the Eclipse are you intended to take what is happening as tantalizing or erotic, for example, and while I don't think everyone now needs to line up and clap Miura on the back for going that route, I think it merits mention. I also think that some of the problems that come up with this type of discussion are inherent to how our society views rape, and what it means for the victims of sexual violence. One of the things I usually take exception to regarding sexual assault and rape is this notion that it is the worst thing that could ever happen to a person, that it is an act that is popularly thought of as worse than murder; I cannot overstate how much I do not mean that "rape isn't bad," but it creates a serious messaging issue for victims of such crimes. When you take the stance that rape is the ultimate evil and/or worst possible outcome, you've essentially also argued that the victim of rape would have been better off being murdered, which is a very small step away from "you would be better off if you had died/were dead," which is a pretty goddamn awful message to communicate to a person who has been through that trauma. Again, it's impossible for me to emphasize exactly how much I believe rape to be horrific, but when the reaction is an almost tacit suggestion that suicide is a preferable alternative, I just don't agree. I'm not positive that this is what Berserk has been driving at regarding Casca's rape and what it has done to her as a character, but that's one of the main things I took away from it - my brother also reads Berserk and one of his main points of contention has been that Casca was robbed of agency and personhood and would have been better off dying during the Eclipse, and I just vehemently disagree. I think survival is preferable to the oblivion that is the alternative, and that Casca having the potential to overcome what has happened to her could be a powerful message if executed correctly. Of course there's like a million more depictions of rape in the manga, and overuse of sexual violence to shock the audience or illustrate exactly how evil a villain is can come off as juvenile, but this series also contains scenes of absolutely stomach-churning violence with even more frequency. I'm sure there's been more scholastic arguments than I can conjure up to explain why that counterpoint is tired - the whole "why are you bothered by the sexual assaults but not the mortal ones" - but I personally feel like Miura does a good job of making sure what we see isn't meant to spur any kind of sexual urge. It's mostly just repulsive. Then again, I haven't re-read Berserk from the start in a hot minute, so I guess now might be the best time to start? 
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May 20, 2016 06:22
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That argument would hold water if the fact the manga uses it precisely because it is seen as worse than murder, especially for women. A lot of the rape just comes across as lazy. At least when it happens to Gutz it serves a point, it isn't necessary for that point but it does serve it. Casca gets threatened like five times along and when she does get raped she isn't even that important to the rape, as the main conflict is Gutz/Griffen. Though that is a big issue with how Casca story has went to this point. CharlestheHammer fucked around with this message at 07:40 on May 20, 2016 |
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May 20, 2016 07:38
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do you guys enjoy discussing all of the ways women are abused within the pages of berserk or are you trying to reach a conclusion
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May 20, 2016 13:50
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I'm not gonna get deep into this discussion, and I love Berserk a whole lot, but arguing that it doesn't have a problem with its depiction and treatment of women in particular is hilariously wrong.
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May 20, 2016 14:07
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Same. There's also the fact that, relatively speaking, Berserk handles its female characters with more care and consideration than many of its peers, which is just 
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May 20, 2016 14:21
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Woebin posted:I'm not gonna get deep into this discussion, and I love Berserk a whole lot, but arguing that it doesn't have a problem with its depiction and treatment of women in particular is hilariously wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4RuB3gT8t0
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May 20, 2016 14:23
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Honestly Berserk's had issues with women that could be chalked up to "the world sucks deal with it" since forever, but the trolls are a bit beyond that. Specifically due to how some of the panels are set up it's a lot more "porn comic" than "horrible act of violence."
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May 20, 2016 15:01
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I had the same feeling when I read the conviction arc to the end of the falcon of the millenium arc last week. When Casca gets raped during the first eclipse, her character had been well established and a good amount of agency of her own. She was an adept warrior with a tough past who, during the eclipse, still didn't stand a chance against the demons and femto. It drew a line between human and demon and showed humanity as a whole, not just Casca, was helpless to defy them. After that Casca is unable to fend for herself, and whenever she wanders away, rape happens. Starving human vagabonds pounce on her. Trolls pounce on her. It just feels like it had more of an emotional impact when it was depicted less, because you go from it being a bad thing that is implied to be common but still seen as bad enough that no one talks about it to pages upon pages of entire caves devoted to it. It's the difference from being in the always over the top grim world of berserk to just tired and overused. Also because I just powered through that arc, I think the translation I used left some stuff out. When is it said that Ganishka went into the man made behelit? From what I read it jumped from him getting stabbed in the head, then him remembering his childhood, then bam he's a giant tentacle trees shedding monsters in the shape of his face.
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May 20, 2016 15:21
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