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W.T. Fits posted:Honestly, given what little we've seen of Sharlayans and how hidebound and conservative their government is, I'm surprised that Lyse didn't wind up being murdered in a dark alleyway somewhere for impersonating an Archon. That would have required leaving Sharlayan to mingle among the lesser peoples, which they aren't very keen on doing, unless they're like Krile or Moenbryda in not suffering from a terminal case of "being an utter dick"
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Jul 28, 2021 21:47
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W.T. Fits posted:Honestly, given what little we've seen of Sharlayans and how hidebound and conservative their government is, I'm surprised that Lyse didn't wind up being murdered in a dark alleyway somewhere for impersonating an Archon. Maybe thats why it was a glamour and Papalymo was always right with her?
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Jul 28, 2021 21:59
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yea if Sharlayan does have some hardcore rear end 'stealing nerd valor is a death sentence' thing Lyse was safe from that with an (apparently quite good) glamour and her potato buddy staying with her to keep it up, and then once they left Sharlayan it was moot because they're not gonna send guys out to the gross rabble.
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Jul 28, 2021 22:12
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sexpig by night posted:yea if Sharlayan does have some hardcore rear end 'stealing nerd valor is a death sentence' thing Lyse was safe from that with an (apparently quite good) glamour and her potato buddy staying with her to keep it up, and then once they left Sharlayan it was moot because they're not gonna send guys out to the gross rabble. Sharlayans hiring mercenaries to kidnap/kill someone for them in Eorzea is literally the plot of the Astrologian 50-60 quests. But that was about preventing their precious knowledge from being spread around to outsiders, I don't think they care as much about people pretending to be scholars.
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Jul 28, 2021 23:14
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Begemot posted:Sharlayans hiring mercenaries to kidnap/kill someone for them in Eorzea is literally the plot of the Astrologian 50-60 quests. But that was about preventing their precious knowledge from being spread around to outsiders, I don't think they care as much about people pretending to be scholars. I really hope AST has some diologue in EW regarding this.
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Jul 28, 2021 23:19
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So, weirdly specific question: where exactly did we learn Emet-Selch had a hand in the Allagan Empire? I've been working on a project detailing everything we know about every Ascian, and while I know he mentions it at some point (we've talked about it too much for us to have completely made it up, I hope) I want to review exactly where, to make sure I don't miss anything. This project's already been great fun, as an aside, because going back to check out all of them gives whole new perspectives to what we never really thought about. It's made Nabriales my favorite Ascian, because if you look back at him you can tell that he's the kind of guy that hates his bosses, but not enough to undermine them; just enough to bitch openly about it.
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Aug 1, 2021 11:57
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I don't know if it's the first time it's mentioned but he talked to Varis about it when he was comparing the 2 empires and taking credit for both.
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Aug 1, 2021 12:00
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Check his talk with g’raha early on in shadowbringers
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Aug 1, 2021 12:27
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Thanks; yeah, he mentions having 'molded' the Allagan Empire in his scene with the Exarch. The 4.x scenes with Varis don't have him say the same thing, but he uses very similar same language when talking about the Garlean Empireso he seems to see his role in both as very similar.
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Aug 1, 2021 13:49
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Cleretic posted:So, weirdly specific question: where exactly did we learn Emet-Selch had a hand in the Allagan Empire? I've been working on a project detailing everything we know about every Ascian, and while I know he mentions it at some point (we've talked about it too much for us to have completely made it up, I hope) I want to review exactly where, to make sure I don't miss anything. I think it's explained when you (as in, the WoL) first meet him that he had a hand in every empire across all the shards. He founded Garlemald and helped along the Allagans, and was involved in some way with the Ronkans on the First. That's why he knows all about the ruins and where the big Hydaelyn-Zodiark mural is (and how the Ronkans even knew about that whole thing). There's a theory that Emet was the true identity of Amon, the royal court mage who was behind a lot of the worst Allagan atrocities like Dalamud and the Crystal Tower. He has the same familiar flair for the theatrical, and the poses he makes during his spell animations in the Syrcus Tower fight are the same as Emet's signature finger snap. Obviously, this means that the one you fight in Syrcus is actually a clone 
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Aug 1, 2021 16:00
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Begemot posted:Obviously, this means that the one you fight in Syrcus is actually a clone It doesn't necessitate this at all though, since killing Emet-possessed Amon would not kill Emet anyway.
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Aug 1, 2021 16:20
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You the player find our during a 'meanwhile in Garlemald' during the Black Rose exposition mini-arc by Emet gloating to Zenos' father. You the WoL find out at the peace negotiations with Zenos' father.
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Aug 1, 2021 16:30
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^ Yeah that's what I meant by comparing the empires, he was taunting Varis about how lovely Garlemald was compared to Allag.Begemot posted:I think it's explained when you (as in, the WoL) first meet him that he had a hand in every empire across all the shards. He founded Garlemald and helped along the Allagans, and was involved in some way with the Ronkans on the First. That's why he knows all about the ruins and where the big Hydaelyn-Zodiark mural is (and how the Ronkans even knew about that whole thing). Pretty sure during the bat cave scene he said something along the lines of the end days and Hydaelyn vs. Zodiark being something everyone used to know even if only as myth. That doesn't sound like him helping set up the Ronkan empire. Algid fucked around with this message at 16:42 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Aug 1, 2021 16:39
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Begemot posted:I think it's explained when you (as in, the WoL) first meet him that he had a hand in every empire across all the shards. He founded Garlemald and helped along the Allagans, and was involved in some way with the Ronkans on the First. That's why he knows all about the ruins and where the big Hydaelyn-Zodiark mural is (and how the Ronkans even knew about that whole thing). Yeah, I'm gonna be talking about the Amon theory specifically because it's popular, and yet doesn't actually work with the evidence provided. Amon was only around at the end of the Allagan Empire, which doesn't track for Emet saying he molded it from the start. You also have the problem that Amon is alive in Syrcus at the same time as Solus, which just doesn't really make sense. The same problem gets in the way of the 'Emet is Xande' theory, but at least with Xande there's the argument that Emet might's possessed Xande's first life at the Empire's birth but not the second at its death. Of course, nobody's saying Emet had to be only one person in Allag's history, or that he had to be anyone important. Personally, I instead think that Amon is Fandaniel. Not only is he WAY more theatrical than Emet, but we also know that Fandaniel immediately jumped at the opportunity to wield Meracydian dragons, and to knock over Emet's painstakingly constructed totalitarian empire, and is even going for a moon shot, so I wouldn't think it all that weird if it turned out 5.x was the second time he pulled these tricks instead of just the first. But this project of mine is more about laying down facts, rather than personal theories, so I won't be talking about that. Incidentally, if anyone can think of particularly notable/popular theories about specifically the Ascians, I wouldn't mind hearing them so I can address them. I've already got mention of 'the Twelve are the Convocation' theory (not implausible, but you need to viably cut exactly two Convocation members out), the 'Emet is Amon' theory, and the entirely separate theories that all three Unsundered aren't actually dead.
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Aug 1, 2021 16:46
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I think Amon is just a guy personally, there can be more than one theatrical fancy lad in the world
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Aug 1, 2021 16:53
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I like the idea of Amon being some genius without ethics that Emet-Selch influenced, but also that Amon was so obsessed with Emet he adopted his mannerisms like the snap. Fun to imagine Emet having a fanboy he can’t stand.
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Aug 1, 2021 16:58
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multijoe posted:I think Amon is just a guy personally, there can be more than one theatrical fancy lad in the world Dramaturges. Dramaturges everywhere
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Aug 1, 2021 16:59
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multijoe posted:I think Amon is just a guy personally, there can be more than one theatrical fancy lad in the world Yeah, I honestly don't think that Amon is anyone, I just think that Fandaniel has slightly more claim than Emet, if nothing else because Fancy Danny doesn't have an alibi during Amon's life.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:03
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Allagan clones apparently have the same/similar memories to the original so there's really no problem with a dude being in two places at once, we even kill a bunch of clones in the Tower. Emet certainly isn't shy about using them, he can body hop in seconds when he has a clone body around. In addition to all the other stuff mentioned about Amon before, resurrection (presumably pulling a soul from the lifestream) is the thing that was supposed to have triggered the end of the Allagan empire, no Amon -> no resurrected Xande -> no attempt to use the tower to summon super voidsent. There's also the stuff like Amon specifically banning anti-tempering research, even if he's not Emet he's someone who appears to have similar interests, mannerisms, and goals.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:06
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Emet also could have been multiple people throughout the existence of Allag, and I don't mean in two places at once. He could have been part of the inner circle at the beginning, then when that personage passed on he picked up another, then another after that one, and so on all the way up to Amon. It'd fit with him saying he "molded" it. It is complete conjecture and I have no basis on it aside from him saying he had lived "a thousand thousand of your lives" before the Aumarot dungeon. That could just be his age, but the following line about him living, siring children and dying makes me think otherwise.
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Aug 1, 2021 17:34
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Given the huge amount of retconning Shadowbringers did anyway, I think I'd rather just headcanon that Emet was indeed actually posing as Amon and goaded Xande into consorting with the dark powers, and that the Amon faced in the game is a clone.
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Aug 1, 2021 18:36
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Moofia Boss Val posted:Given the huge amount of retconning Shadowbringers did anyway, I think I'd rather just headcanon that Emet was indeed actually posing as Amon and goaded Xande into consorting with the dark powers, and that the Amon faced in the game is a clone. What retconning did shadowbringers do?
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Aug 1, 2021 19:59
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:What retconning did shadowbringers do? Lahabrea's account of the Zodiark/Hydaelyn fight, the reasons for, and the mechanics of Rejoining were probably originally going to be true but whenever the idea for Shadowbringers started taking form in game (likely around Stormblood if not as soon as the Warriors of Darkness showed), it had to retroactively establish that his memory was fuzzy from too much time bodyhopping.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:03
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Mister Olympus posted:Lahabrea's account of the Zodiark/Hydaelyn fight, the reasons for, and the mechanics of Rejoining were probably originally going to be true but whenever the idea for Shadowbringers started taking form in game (likely around Stormblood if not as soon as the Warriors of Darkness showed), it had to retroactively establish that his memory was fuzzy from too much time bodyhopping. I mean that's not really retconning because Laha's account is him basically being incredibly vague about any details whatsoever. The only hard details he gets across is that there was a fight between the two gods and Zodiark was split.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:06
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Hrm. The gimmick poster who only exists to post wrong things to make people mad, might not be posting in good faith by mentioning retcons.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:08
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Ibram Gaunt posted:Hrm. The gimmick poster who only exists to post wrong things to make people mad, might not be posting in good faith by mentioning retcons. man there are too many gimmicks to keep track of nowadays That said even though it's vague, the intent behind Lahabrea's explanation is definitely that the original two aren't necessarily primals and that they're co-equal original existences rather than manifested ideals, based on how he phrases it, and I wouldn't be surprised if Pandemonium has a shade of Lahabrea mentioning something about how he might have framed it that way to help you understand.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:11
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:What retconning did shadowbringers do? Off of the top of my head: Elidibus' character In ARR. Elidibus was presented as separate from the rest of the Ascians, as someone with his own agenda. The other Ascians are upset with him because he doesn't explain what his plans are to him. He also shows indifference to the loss of the other Ascians. "Lahabrea was a warrior. He fought. He fell", and doesn't hate the Scions. He also presents himself as someone trying to bridge the balance between Light and Dark, whereas the other Ascians seemed to exclusively worship the dark. This is retconned in Shadowbringers, where he, Emet-Selch, and Lahabrea are the leaders of the Ascians and tell the Ascians their plans and goals, and in 5.3 he explicitly intends to avenge the other Ascians. The "balance between Light and Dark" motive is thrown out the window and he becomes just another Zodiark worshipper like the other Ascians. The Stormblood short story about Zenos' childhood shows us that Zenos was a bored young man with too much time on his hands, who started becoming bloodthirsty after an encounter with an assassin. The Shadowbringers patches retcons Zenos' motivations: every single time he goes to sleep, he dreams of Amaurot. Fandaniel insinuates that Emet-Selch may have altered or warped Zenos into the way he is. These dreams directly contradict the Stormblood short story, as it ends with Zenos sleeping soundly (the Amaurot backstory for the Ascians had not been created yet). Gaius' characterization in the Werylt storyline is at complete odds with how he actually acted in the ARR storyline (as well as being impossible given how Garlemald is depicted by the time of Stormblood. With how evil Garlemald is retconned into being by the time of late SB and ShB, there is no way Gaius could have climbed up so far into the ranks and not know what he was stepping into. Gaius and Livia retcon. In the ARR patches, it is stated that the hard mode Primals you fight in the postgame are the same Primals you fought earlier, and that primal spirits hang around in the Lifestream until resummoned into physical reality. This is retconned with the introduction of Creation Magic in ShB, as each primal summoned is a different one (Primal Summoning is just fancy creation magic, pretty much the act of creating a familiar). The Shiva in Shadowbringers is not that same as Yslaye, and so on. Hrothgar and Viera retconned into the setting. Gunblades retconned from not being of Garlean origin.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:16
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hspNaoxzNbs
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Aug 1, 2021 20:22
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Moofia Boss Val posted:Off of the top of my head: A) Why are you using spoilers in the spoiler thread and B) most of these aren't retcons but reveals and complications of plot points we only new parts of or C) You just not being able to read or understand text. Like where do you get Fandaniel hinting that Emet made Zenos go crazy and bloodthirsty? That's not a thing ever said in the plot. The bit about primals we already knew or at least could confer from the poo poo with Shiva and Bahamut in HW. We already knew that summoning didn't recreate a specific being but created a facsimile of them whose ideals and actions are based on what you think as you summon them (For Example: The Titan Hard refight in Stormblood), this was not a retcon but a bit of the characters not knowing everything about Primals that was then explored the very next expac. We already knew gunblades we're not originally Garlean and most of their tech is directly derivative of people they conquered or allagan poo poo they found, that's been a core facet of their empire since they were introduced. The poo poo with Gaius is what he's always been (As we see from his relationship with Cape Westwind Man) plus building off the fact that not only did his entire world view get destroyed by you and the AScians but by his adventures with Estinien, culminating in the Crown Prince of his beloved empire burning it all down in front of him and saying to his face "None of this poo poo matters". Elidi not caring about the other ascians and working on his own to facilitate the others plans is something the .X stuff directly talks about and in fact the whole deal with the Amaurot replicas and the gifts Emet left for us is to show that that's not what he was always like and it's part of his nature that has been eroded away. It's why the whole ending in 5.3 is bitter sweet because he does remember the who and the why of his ordeals and actions right at the end of it all. None of that is forgotten or retconned it is directly built on. The only thing that could even charitably be called a retcon in this post is the framing of Livia and Gaius's relationship. The hrothgar/viera thing is almost too stupid to mention but Fran shows up in stormblood directly, you spend a good bit of time talking to her and poo poo and she's in the final 24 man of the expac so even if you take the idea that we as players haven't seen every race in existence as a retcon it wasn't even a Shadowbringers 'retcon' by that definition. And again, that definition is so incredibly off the mark that it's useless. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Aug 1, 2021 20:32
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Gaius tells Livia to meet him in his chambers. After the retcon: oh so he just needed an audience to rehearse his Praetorium speech, okay.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:39
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None of these are retcons, you just are kinda dumb.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:41
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You'd think Gaius would realize he's wrong after being so strong that people will follow him, but not strong enough to make his subordinates stop being so goddamn racist. He's their hero. He's their champion, but they're not so hot on this anti-racism he favors.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:42
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:The hrothgar/viera thing is almost too stupid to mention but Fran shows up in stormblood directly, you spend a good bit of time talking to her and poo poo and she's in the final 24 man of the expac so even if you take the idea that we as players haven't seen every race in existence as a retcon it wasn't even a Shadowbringers 'retcon' by that definition. And again, that definition is so incredibly off the mark that it's useless. cant believe yoshida would ruin the narrative integrity of ffxiv by retconning femroes and f highlanders into the game
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Aug 1, 2021 20:45
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The primal thing really gets me because it's a huge plot point that gets like 2 separate 10 minute cut-scenes where people talk about it in Heavensward and it's the major turning point for one of the major cast members of the expansion and the truth of it and her not being able to live with it is the major reasoning behind her eventual self sacrifice. One of those big cutscenes is the final one before you unlock flying in the final zone and start your ascent to the final dungeon of the story. They're both incredibly hard to miss or forget because they're so pivotal and you managed to do it. Hat's off to you EDIT: And then you see it in loving practice and it's the climax of a stormblood patch cycle and the aftermath of it is one of the core driving character motivations for a Scion all the way until 5.4. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Aug 1, 2021 20:45
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About the only thing ZenMasterBullshit didn't mention is Zenos' dreams, but maybe that's because my read is wrong on that point. I thought these dreams started after Zenos learned the truth about Zodiark and Hydaedlyn from Elidibus, before the latter escaped when he was confronted by Zenos coming back for his body. They aren't the same ones he was having from his childhood; his comment about being done with them was regarding regular, troubling nightmares in general, not Final Days nightmares in particular.
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Aug 1, 2021 20:47
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Onean posted:About the only thing ZenMasterBullshit didn't mention is Zenos' dreams, but maybe that's because my read is wrong on that point. Yeah he just had two separate dreams and even if they're connected we see explicitly in 5.3 when Elidi's doing his meteor light show people can have memories of Amarout but not hear Hydelyn's voice/have the echo (They go out of their way to show 2 dudes in Eulmore reacting to the imagery, one hearing the voice of Momma Crystal and one not hearing it but crying and having vague memories of lost friends/sadness). So it's possible if they were Ancient Days dreams the resonance just let them get more vivid but there's no text saying his childhood dreams are the same reoccurring ones he's having now. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Aug 1, 2021 |
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Aug 1, 2021 20:50
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Zenos has the echo now and is inhabiting a body Elidibus was driving for a while so I think you can easily use the echo to justify him learning anything from Elidibus’s past.
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Aug 1, 2021 21:28
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in complete awe of "introducing a new race" being called a retcon can't believe heavensward retconned au ra into the setting
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Aug 1, 2021 21:57
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SirSamVimes posted:in complete awe of "introducing a new race" being called a retcon It's rather disappointing how your race in FFXIV doesn't matter. If you play as an expansion race, everyone in Eorzea should be staring at you with wide eyes, having literally never seen your kind before. If you play an Au Ra, Ishgardians should be confused by you and some might be aggressive, mistaking you for some sort of dragonkin. If you play a Raen, Yugiri should mistake you for another Othardian Raen, not realizing that there are some in South-Western Ilsabard. If you play a Hrothgar, some people should confuse you with beastmen, and if you play as a Helion then other Bozjans should think you are one of their fellow countrymen. If you play as a Duskwright or a Mooncat, you should get some suspicious looks in Gridania. Male Miq'ote should get comments given how uncommon they are supposed to be. In WoW and GW2, you get a decent amount of different reactions depending on your race and who you are talking to.
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Aug 1, 2021 22:06
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Yes, add more racism
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Aug 1, 2021 22:07
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