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The bits in the Lord of the Rings about how proximity to horror and despair changes people forever, and literally causes some people to wither away (the black breath) or go mad (Denethor) always struck me as a particularly modern aspect of Tolkien's writing. The idea that even if you win, you'll never be the same, things will never quite go back to the way they were, or even that sometimes saving what you love means losing it for yourself. That's not from fairy stories. That's very post-ww1 modernism.
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Apr 26, 2020 21:55
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Imagined posted:The bits in the Lord of the Rings about how proximity to horror and despair changes people forever, and literally causes some people to wither away (the black breath) or go mad (Denethor) always struck me as a particularly modern aspect of Tolkien's writing. The idea that even if you win, you'll never be the same, things will never quite go back to the way they were, or even that sometimes saving what you love means losing it for yourself. That's not from fairy stories. That's very post-ww1 modernism. Yeah, the article is completely correct to compare Tolkien to Pound and Eliot etc. The only real error is at the end, when for some reason learni g something about human emotions is less "real" than railway timetables or whatever. It is really interesting that the "greatest novel of the twentieth century" is such a wholesale rejection of it.
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Apr 26, 2020 21:59
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From personal experience, my platoon did this in 2003 after every single engagement. We framed it as an AAR (after action review), which, interestingly enough was actual doctrine at the time. AARs were intended to improve the unit's abilities in tactics, but I think it also had the happy effect of reducing the mental strain that is--in my experience--inherent with sudden violence and ongoing fear. Tolkien's writings of war are actually quite good, even with a modern lens applied to them. He captures the toils of the march and the every day, and the quick and almost "flash scene" nature of the violence also has the right feel. poo poo happens fast, and often what one is left with feels like a few still photographs. All the usual caveats of, "This is just my experience, and others' may/probably were different" apply, of course.
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Apr 26, 2020 22:01
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I first read LotR around the same time I was reading Chaucer (for A levels) so the idea that it's not a simple, accessible read will always feel completely alien to me.
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Apr 27, 2020 21:02
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My first read of the Hobbit was in sixth grade, so I would've been 10 or 11 years old. I remember we were reading it one chapter per week, and by the time we'd gotten up to Gandalf's departure I'd already finished the Hobbit and most of Fellowship as well. I didn't have a lot of nerd friends so I never really got further into fantasy, and I'm way too old for Harry Potter so I just re-read LOTR every year instead.
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Apr 28, 2020 01:37
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Well, we've done the first bit of Hobbit-reading! And on a good rainy night, too. The kids laughed at the name Baggins, which took me by surprise- I guess "Baggins" has been floating around my brain for so long I forgot how ridiculous a name it is. Still weighing up whether or not to attempt a Gollum voice.
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Apr 29, 2020 10:18
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I always thought lotr was an extremely easy read, it's a guilty pleasure and indulgence and i can't imagine someone struggling with it. even the silmarillion is very easy, it reads like a liberal translation of the bible or homer or something
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Apr 29, 2020 11:27
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Shibawanko posted:I always thought lotr was an extremely easy read, it's a guilty pleasure and indulgence and i can't imagine someone struggling with it. even the silmarillion is very easy, it reads like a liberal translation of the bible or homer or something When I was trying to get my brother interested in the Silmarillion, he read a little bit of it and gave up, and then later that day was a new Simpsons episode which was that one where Reverend Lovejoy reads a list of "begats" that goes on for hours. He turned to me and said "that's what the Silmarillion is like"
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Apr 29, 2020 12:00
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Data Graham posted:When I was trying to get my brother interested in the Silmarillion, he read a little bit of it and gave up, and then later that day was a new Simpsons episode which was that one where Reverend Lovejoy reads a list of "begats" that goes on for hours. He turned to me and said "that's what the Silmarillion is like" Really? Ouch. The best bit in the Sil is the description of Tulkas- how he basically is the God Of Running Fast, Punching Things And Laughing- at the end of which, it dourly notes that "he is of no avail as a counsellor." I have met more than one Tulkas irl...
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Apr 29, 2020 12:09
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the silmarillion owns, i really enjoy the buildup from the moment of creation to the period in valinor and how it all goes to poo poo in beleriand, feanor is also just a great character. it's not written in conventional character driven prose but i like that, i can sort of imagine the actual events and dialogues myself from their broad brush descriptions elves also just kick rear end and i wish tolkien was reality and i could go meet them
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Apr 29, 2020 12:50
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Shibawanko posted:I always thought lotr was an extremely easy read, it's a guilty pleasure and indulgence and i can't imagine someone struggling with it. even the silmarillion is very easy, it reads like a liberal translation of the bible or homer or something Well that's exactly the problem. I love these books, but I have a historical bent and an adoration for mythology and that stilted style just doesn't work for everyone. How many people do you think have genuinely read the Bible or Homer? Most people tend to read modern translations of them that smooth over the linguistic difficulties.
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Apr 29, 2020 13:05
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The slow burn of LotR where the style gradually goes from Hobbit-like at the beginning to closer and closer to Silmarillion-esque in RotK (especially after the Ring is destroyed) is a great bit of frog-in-boiling-water ramp-up. Eventually you realize you're reading all thou's and wherefore's which is hilarious if you're trying to read it aloud to someone The ex-post rationale that that bit was written by  Findegil, King's Writer , whereas the rest is all Frodo / Sam is equally funny but I'm here for it
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Apr 29, 2020 13:13
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If we didn't have the Silmarillion we would have lost our ability to identify nerds on December 19, 2001
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Apr 29, 2020 13:16
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It turned out for me that the Silm. was a good frame or outline for the prose and poetic stories in the lost tales The Silm is a bit too 1000 yards away from the narrative to be completely compelling.
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Apr 29, 2020 14:16
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The published Silmarillion was a beautiful mistake and the pro move for Chris would have been to devise a fictional framework for it as mutilated/incomplete segments of the Red Book rather than trying to make a gospel harmony of it
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Apr 29, 2020 14:23
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One of the funnier impacts of LOTR on my life is realizing that the "halls" I've experienced have been a complete and utter loving letdown.
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Apr 29, 2020 15:34
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Data Graham posted:When I was trying to get my brother interested in the Silmarillion, he read a little bit of it and gave up, and then later that day was a new Simpsons episode which was that one where Reverend Lovejoy reads a list of "begats" that goes on for hours. He turned to me and said "that's what the Silmarillion is like" I can sympathise with him if he hit a roadblock at the beginning of the Quenta Silmarillion - the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta are fun, but then you get the this elves went thisaway and the that elves went thataway and these other guys wurble wurble and it's a hell of a slog. Then once you get further you find out it's all setup for the cool stuff and worth it, but you have to power through it on trust your first time.
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Apr 29, 2020 15:53
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Plus he probably flipped right from that to looking at the diagrams of the Noldorin and Three Kindreds of Men's family trees and just noped out. Much like I suspect most people who complain about LotR being full of boring "landscapes" probably only read the Prologue. I can totally understand the mindset, that sort of thing isn't for everybody. But some people's nerd brains are just wired to take to that kind of material like fish to water.
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Apr 29, 2020 15:58
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Runcible Cat posted:I can sympathise with him if he hit a roadblock at the beginning of the Quenta Silmarillion - the Ainulindale and the Valaquenta are fun, but then you get the this elves went thisaway and the that elves went thataway and these other guys wurble wurble and it's a hell of a slog. Newbies today should probably just skip to children of Hurin
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Apr 29, 2020 16:25
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I've been on a reading kick lately and in the last two weeks read the lord of the rings, silmarillion, and today I finished the unfinished tales. Wondering what else, if anything, to tackle next. I dont think I want to dig into the histories based on what I know about them. Going over a bunch of drafts from things in lotr isnt really something I am interested in doing. Any suggestions?
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Apr 29, 2020 19:36
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nesbit37 posted:I've been on a reading kick lately and in the last two weeks read the lord of the rings, silmarillion, and today I finished the unfinished tales. Wondering what else, if anything, to tackle next. I dont think I want to dig into the histories based on what I know about them. Going over a bunch of drafts from things in lotr isnt really something I am interested in doing. Any suggestions? Some of the History might interest you, if you could get through Unfinished Tales. I’d recommend checking out vols. 1 and 2 (Book of Lost Tales), this is the original material that the Silmarillion was gradually adapted from and a lot of it is wild and quite different (what if instead of having Sauron as a lieutenant, Morgoth owned a giant cat?). Not every volume is as interesting but there’s some very unique stuff scattered throughout. After that you’re pretty much out of legendarium material.
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Apr 29, 2020 19:41
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Lays of Beleriand is incredible Imho
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Apr 29, 2020 19:42
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nesbit37 posted:I've been on a reading kick lately and in the last two weeks read the lord of the rings, silmarillion, and today I finished the unfinished tales. Wondering what else, if anything, to tackle next. I dont think I want to dig into the histories based on what I know about them. Going over a bunch of drafts from things in lotr isnt really something I am interested in doing. Any suggestions? Smith of Wooton Major is Tolkien's best work
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Apr 29, 2020 19:48
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Children of Hurin if you haven't read it yet.
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Apr 29, 2020 20:17
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Notion Club Papers if you like getting blueballed by linguistics
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Apr 29, 2020 20:39
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Arcsquad12 posted:Children of Hurin if you haven't read it yet. I'm kind of more interested in The Fall of Gondolin but never hear it recommended. Any reason why?
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Apr 29, 2020 22:36
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Tolkien never finished it. The 2018 book is a book report / literary study by Chris which is fine I guess. The lays of Beleriand which I recommended has a Gondolin fragment
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Apr 29, 2020 22:43
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euphronius posted:Tolkien never finished it. He did, but only the Lost Tale version. The later Gondolin thing is just the version in Unfinished Tales
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Apr 29, 2020 22:47
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The Book of Lost Tales version of Fall of Gondolin is my favourite non-LotR Tolkien.
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Apr 29, 2020 23:56
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sassassin posted:The Book of Lost Tales version of Fall of Gondolin is my favourite non-LotR Tolkien. Yeah it’s really good. Doesn’t hurt that it’s actually finished unlike 99% of the unpublished stuff
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Apr 30, 2020 00:55
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As a Catholic a part of me hopes John got to heaven and was told, "Good start. Now let's get some of that material finnished."
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Apr 30, 2020 01:41
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Why did I think he never finished it ? Maybe I was thinking of the verse version ?
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Apr 30, 2020 02:04
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euphronius posted:Why did I think he never finished it ? Maybe the post LOTR rewrite, which is really good as well but breaks off while Tuor is still going through the seven gates
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Apr 30, 2020 02:12
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Ynglaur posted:As a Catholic a part of me hopes John got to heaven and was told, "Good start. Now let's get some of that material finnished." "We are not bound forever in the circles of the world, and beyond them is a chance to get that rough draft sorted out."
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Apr 30, 2020 03:29
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Ynglaur posted:As a Catholic a part of me hopes John got to heaven and was told, "Good start. Now let's get some of that material finnished." I don't think that would be heaven for old JR lol
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May 3, 2020 09:09
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Denethor was so right Mithrandir aka Gandalf was literally just an undying spirit whose entire existence was fighting against Sauron and the allies of Sauron. Gandalf didn't give a gently caress about the people of Minas Tirith, everybody was just pawns in his long game. He's way more of a force of nature than an actual person.
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May 5, 2020 03:40
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Denethor was so right Mithrandir aka Gandalf was literally just an undying spirit whose entire existence was fighting against Sauron and the allies of Sauron. Gandalf didn't give a gently caress about the people of Minas Tirith, everybody was just pawns in his long game. He's way more of a force of nature than an actual person. If you don't think Gandalf cared about people... did we even read the same books?
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May 5, 2020 04:17
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He didn’t care about Denethor that’s for sure
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May 5, 2020 04:18
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Denethor was so right Mithrandir aka Gandalf was literally just an undying spirit whose entire existence was fighting against Sauron and the allies of Sauron. Gandalf didn't give a gently caress about the people of Minas Tirith, everybody was just pawns in his long game. He's way more of a force of nature than an actual person. I think that’s a really cynical take, and I’m not sure if it’s just bait. Obviously Gandalf’s goal was to defeat Sauron while preventing as much suffering to the people of Middle-Earth as possible. That was the whole point of sending the Istari. If the primary goal of the Valar had just been Sauron’s defeat, Eonwe would have just come over with a big army and hosed him up. But that would have resulted in a lot more death and destruction than what Gandalf accomplished. Where Gandalf differs from Denethor is that Denethor completely takes a “Gondor first” attitude. He primarily cares about the power and prestige of his own country, and his lineage in charge of it and he sees Gondor as the only significant enemy of Sauron when in fact it’s the primary, but not only power opposing Mordor. Gandalf obviously cares about the people of Minas Tirith (otherwise why bother going to the Houses of Healing with the Battle of the Pelennor Fields still raging) but puts the fate and wellbeing of all of Middle-Earth before any single country or individual. Gandalf absolutely does use people and armies as “pawns”, though. Frodo is the most obvious case of that. There’s no way Gandalf didn’t know that the quest of the Ring could end in any way other than complete ruin for Frodo personally, regardless of whatever else happened, but he still encouraged him on it. Sure he probably was operating on faith that Eru (God) chose Frodo for the quest and would make sure he came out if it okay in the end, but it was still a very cold decision in some ways.
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May 5, 2020 04:21
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Frodo calls him out on it directly But what can you do, he was chosen by the gods. Poor Frodo. He didn’t even want to go to Mordor but was literally possessed by the gods in the fateful moment and forced to. At least they sent the eagles so he didn’t die on the side of a volcano and instead died weary and in pain in the west euphronius fucked around with this message at 04:32 on May 5, 2020 |
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May 5, 2020 04:26
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