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Cyclomatic posted:I'll accept that I can't find a rule to that effect so I clearly made it up, but it does make 100x more sense than forcing someone to waste their ARO on a change facing instead of allowing them to declare a currently illegal shot. Everything resolves at the end of the second short skill. Ignroing the weird ZOC things, I think the "I declare first skill, you declare ARO, I declare second skill" is to allow the player with the active turn to react to your ARO. As well there are skills that specifically get around the ZOC thing, like Sixth Sense. I haven't encountered the ZOC thing too much to see if your solution makes 100X more sense. To me it seems that it allows the active player some defence if he needs to move his units closer.
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Aug 13, 2015 18:45
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The active player had defense. If a ninja walks up to a corner and chooses not to use stealth as first short skill, and provokes a zoc ARO, and the ARO is to shoot at the ninja with an illegal flamethrower shot, the ninja has a decision to make about moving around the corner and making that ARO legal or not. Right now as I understand it, the ninja provokes the ARO and forces a change facing, and then walks around the corner and bases the model with the flamethrower since the ninja player rules lawyered to cheat the model out of using its wepon.
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Aug 13, 2015 19:56
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Cyclomatic posted:The active player had defense. If a ninja walks up to a corner and chooses not to use stealth as first short skill, and provokes a zoc ARO, and the ARO is to shoot at the ninja with an illegal flamethrower shot, the ninja has a decision to make about moving around the corner and making that ARO legal or not. Right, I think we agree that its in place to let the active player have more initative and information before acting. I don't think its rules lawyering, just a caveat to try and make melee a little bit more viable in the game full of shooting? How often does this come up in your games?
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Aug 13, 2015 21:33
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As to the impersonator conversation, I am starting to get Vanilla Haqqislam tactics better. I am playing them as piece-trade gurus, I have alot of good cheap offensive tools, and not a ton of the defensive tools, so alot of the time I am sacrificing my model to do things (FO an HVT, light up a Tag with a Panzerfaust, etc) and the IMP lets me contend with the super ARO threats, snipers covering lanes, MSV2-3 blocking a path I need to run some guys through where my smoke won't cover them. It is working out pretty well. Still sometimes the fiday just explodes in a hail of bullets and her target makes the armor rolls, but generally they take out one thing, then die (which fits their fluff well I must say). My local meta is learning so the super juicy targets are less common (lined up dudes behind a building, etc) but I just evaluate how much my Fiday costs vs how badly I need that one thing dead. And I am really liking the risk-taker playstyle it has lead me down. Ran a 4 Kum list last night, and every one of them actually traded up in points, and sometimes took out specialists near objectives, yeah, they all died in the effort, but meh, gets the job done so my specialists can come in later and mop up the points. I started with Ragiks and Lasiqs, Djanban and all the quality pieces, ended up with KUM, Mutts, Halqa, and Daylami, and I am loving every minute of it. Now that I am going in directions I had not contemplated with the faction, I ordered a scarface and an Iguana, going to try dual Tag QK list next, should be a very different experience.
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Aug 13, 2015 21:47
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Bit of a side tangent but got another CA game in tonight with a bit of a shoddy list (cramming too many toys into 200pts lol) and had one of those  moments when a single plasma shot wiped out half of a link team.
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Aug 14, 2015 00:52
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Exmond posted:Right, I think we agree that its in place to let the active player have more initative and information before acting. I don't think its rules lawyering, just a caveat to try and make melee a little bit more viable in the game full of shooting? As JSA player, more games than not. I make a lot of Shinobu Kitsune runs. Of course, up till now I've been playing it wrong. I think I will keep playing it wrong. Melee is totally fine now without the rules lawyering. Spend the order to throw some loving smoke instead of cheating the other player out of the ability to play. IMO at least.
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Aug 14, 2015 01:09
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Does anyone have an awesome 300 or 400 pt Tohaa list? If I can't get more focused on Tohaa, I am probably going to end up buying into USAriadna. (poor impulse control in this thread) It is all Angel Giraldez' fault. I just want to paint those toy soldiers!
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Aug 14, 2015 03:15
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My buddy plays Tohaa but has a bit of a limited collection for now, although he's got a bunch of stuff coming in, what do you own? I've been trying to figure out Tohaa list building myself. Admittedly I think either AF or HS, whichever the Tohaa expansion will be in, will do a number for them like CP did for ALEPH. E: Dex, I've sent you a message on steam. Flipswitch fucked around with this message at 12:20 on Aug 14, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 11:28
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I haven't played or updated my Tohaa army in awhile, but I'd usually have several different triads for different purposes, like an assault one with a Ectros or a defensive one with a Gao Rael. I'd usually try to fit in a Makaul for their smoke and close combat capabilities, and a specialist for ITS objectives. There have been a lot of cool single unit Tohaa too. The Nikoul and Kotail I've used and both are excellent at what they do (defensive sniping and objective running respectively). Haven't tried the Rasail, but had one run against me and they're bloody tough to bring down. The TAG is generally though of as pretty useless and I've never really had any success with it either, but it's not overly expensive for a TAG and has good stats (and 4 W!) if you ignore the whole flame death thing.
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Aug 14, 2015 15:12
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Are the sectoral starters with picking up if I'm going to be playing vanilla CA?
Macdeo Lurjtux fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Aug 14, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 18:30
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If I played Tohaa, I'd be going nuts with the unlinked stuff right now. Stuff like Kotail, Kaeltar, Rasail, Clipsos, and even Igao. Plus a bunch of people swear by the Nikoul. Kind of sad that I sold my Tohaa before all the cool stuff came out - especially since nobody's playing Tohaa now in our meta. (But not too sad, thanks to Onyx hopes.) Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Are the sectoral starters with picking up if I'm going to be playing vanilla CA? IMO, no. If I were going vanilla CA then I'd pick up the new vanilla starter (that's got the batroids, sygmaa, and umbra) and then add a box of Daturazi. Fill out with blisters to taste (including a wormdoc + servants). Corbeau fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Aug 14, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 18:42
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I am curious to see if they put in some more TAG/REM supportware with the new EVO Hackers coming out, I wouldn't mind seeing Fairy Dust for some more things in the game and the like.Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Are the sectoral starters with picking up if I'm going to be playing vanilla CA? 
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Aug 14, 2015 19:02
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Flipswitch posted:I am curious to see if they put in some more TAG/REM supportware with the new EVO Hackers coming out, I wouldn't mind seeing Fairy Dust for some more things in the game and the like. Fairy Dust for TAGs needs to happen, I think. They just incredibly vulnerable compared to HI right now.
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Aug 14, 2015 19:04
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Corbeau posted:Fairy Dust for TAGs needs to happen, I think. They just incredibly vulnerable compared to HI right now. Don't you talk about my Marut that way. daddy still loves you, 120 point robot
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Aug 14, 2015 19:51
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Corbeau posted:
I kind of agree, but I also regretted not buying it and using the seeds as shrouded since I've already bought four of the models in the box anyway (speculo, shrouded, malignos and one seed for proxying another shrouded)
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Aug 14, 2015 20:04
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Corbeau posted:Fairy Dust for TAGs needs to happen, I think. They just incredibly vulnerable compared to HI right now. I'm really curious to see what CB come up with in this book.
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Aug 14, 2015 20:22
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Wouldn't mind some peoples input on this list I'm working on. Playing a 250pt Tranmission Matrix game to round out one of our leagues before we start our new tournament format and it doesn't have to be a cut throat list but I am troubled a bit on some of my weapon load outs. Combined Army────────────────────────────────────────────────── Group 1   10  0  0 SKIÁVORO Lieutenant Plasma Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, CCW. (52) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (9) IKADRON (Baggage, Repeater) 2 Light Flamethrowers, Flash Pulse / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (9) KO DALI Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges / 2 Assault Pistols, Knife. (37) Q-DRONE Plasma Rifle / Electric Pulse. (1 | 25) UNIDRON Spitfire / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (1 | 18) UNIDRON (Forward Observer) Plasma Carbine / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (15) UNIDRON (Forward Observer) Plasma Carbine / Pistol, Electric Pulse. (15) MED-TECH OBSIDON MEDCHANOID Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (23) UMBRA LEGATE Hacker (Hacking Device Plus) Boarding Shotgun, Flash Pulse / Pistol, DA CCW. (0.5 | 43)Group 2 1 0 0 ÍMETRON Electric Pulse. (4)2.5 SWC | 250 Points Open with Army 5 I'm really thinking of changing an Ikadron to the 8pt REM, (R-Drone?) to up the Q-Drone to a HMG to give me some longer ranged fire power. The list is fairly short ranged as it is and it's relying on Ko Dali to do a break up if I can't shove through. I know I'm playing vs Ariadna so I need some form of MSV and I opted for Ko Dali for being able to land near/walk onto zones rather than relying on a slow Maakrep to walk through one. Doctor Worm is there for being His Wormness, Worm Bond (and classified objectives). Thoughts?
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Aug 14, 2015 22:38
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Take a Charontid hacker, it's a beast. last time I made a Bakunin player almost ragequit over "loving OP CA hackers"  Maybe switch one UniFO for an M-Drone, it'll be much faster once you eliminate enemy hacking support. And yeah, HMG Q is essential. I'd take a sniper too.
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Aug 14, 2015 22:47
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That's a fair shout, I hadn't thought of taking the M-Drone, I'll drop the Imetron in group 2 and up a Unidron to it maybe? I kinda like my Unidrons they've done so much work for me recently. It's kinda nuts to witness. I'm running a fair few support models then at that point and I'm a bit cautious of not having enough lifting models you know? Esp in a scenario on holding table space. I haven't got a model for a Charontid yet so I'd have to proxy a 40mm Silhouette template for it and I kinda don't wanna do that. I'd reach for it if I owned it though. It seems ideal in this scenario. You referring to the Batroid Sniper? I haven't used him yet but with Supportware he seems bad rear end. I could drop the Imetron and use those 4pts to give Dok Worm a Slave & up the REM to a HMG. I'd lose a potential future order to do that change.
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Aug 14, 2015 23:02
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I use a Malignos or Le Muet, but Unidrons are good with Enh Reaction. I prefer the ML, but I don't know how dense your tables are.
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Aug 14, 2015 23:07
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We tend to have a pretty good mix, some dense american-style tables, some sparse Spanish style and some which are a mix between both. I'm really big on pushing a variety of tables and terrain types to keep people thinking and changing their thoughts on how to approach the game. I do like the ML Batroid, I got En Reaction on him once and he missed both shots like a champ.
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Aug 14, 2015 23:16
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Flipswitch posted:Yeah TAGs were what I had in mind mostly, I am not sure if REMs will get that type of defense, I mean my Unidrons are BTS6 base already, but then you don't get other defenses other than that at the moment and it would help enable REM heavy forces I think maybe. Every TAG that PanO has is either BTS 6 or BTS 9 in the case of the beast that is the Jotum... and Toni. But yeah... I've successfully posessed Nomad TAGs in every game I've gone up against them recently by rolling a remote up next to them and popping them with a Deva. NCA ain't your momma's PanO. Cyberpunkey Monkey fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Aug 14, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 23:53
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Yes I know, I have played them for many years now  . Several hacking programs VS TAGs lower that statline and/or force multiple rolls so the stat doesn't really mean that much when a hacker goes for it. TAGs exist in a tricky place balance wise though, so their counters (and what few the big ones tend to have) should be pretty strong I feel. I just wouldn't mind seeing some more support ware built for them and REMs that had to be paid for in addition to the regular suite, as I said I'm really interested in how they take his new EVO stuff and how far they push it. I think the current REM supportware is really good in the game and would like to see an extension of that. Same for things like Cybermask and White Noise, they're great additions. E: Side tangent folks but ITS Rooms, I'm going to be ordering a set for our tournament scene down here and which ones have you guys had the best experiences with? granted they're just square rooms but I don't own much in the way of MAS stuff but I can get their District 5 Objective Rooms really cheap so I'm thinking of picking up like 8. Flipswitch fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Aug 15, 2015 |
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Aug 15, 2015 00:01
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I agree. I am very much looking forward to what comes out. I've been playing for a year and I've never actually fielded a TAG myself. Soon, I'm going to get a jeweler's saw and actually do my Bootleg Cutter on full legs project... I don't want to risk it loving around with one of those little hobby mitre saws, but haven't gotten around to buying the tool yet. I was kinda waiting for the Uhlans, but I think I could actually do some good vanilla PanO with what I have... I built an objective room out of hardboard, chipboard, and some takeout containers and I like it more than anything else I've seen. I'm waiting until I get an airbrush to paint it. I'm also going to get a loving airbrush. gently caress this bristle brush peasantry. 
Cyberpunkey Monkey fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Aug 15, 2015 |
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Aug 15, 2015 00:21
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I think Angel did one of those a while ago but I'm not sure he posted up a guide on how he did it. The result looks amazing though. I know someone else did one on the main forums a while back and it did look slick. The Uhlan is a really underrated TAG and I really like it, especially at the 200-250pt range in NCA where it can pull its weight around. Unfortunately it looks like it'll be the last of the Stingray TAGs to get the sculpt despite being the one in most demand (except Toni). The only TAG in PanO that I think is still subpar in N3 is the Tikbalang. TAGs are really good at what they do, but they kind of fit in like a square peg in a round hole in ITS, they're amazing at just wrecking stuff but they're pretty vulnerable in the short range bracket and can't commit to scenarios anymore. I'm exactly sure how you'd shape them to be a great fit in ITS apart from just being massive bullies, which they are pretty good at admittedly, they just feel so vulnerable now. That's probably some bias though and they feel more vulnerable than they actually are. It's a bit more distorted in PanO where you've got such a wide complement of them to pick from as well.
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Aug 15, 2015 00:29
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I'm sure I'm not the first. It's somewhat of an obvious conversion, but I still think it'll be awesome. It'll be a relatively simple chop job, but I need to make sure to cut the pieces right on line the first time, and then I'll probably use between two and four pins, clean up the join with some putty, bish bash bosh!. Mostly, since I've been focusing on learning how to play the NCA sectorial rather than just doing whatever, I haven't had much motivation to actually put in the work on that project since I had Dronbots to magnetize and Bulleteers and Bolts to paint, but the Cutter is my favorite TAG aesthetically and I've had it tucked away for the right moment.
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Aug 15, 2015 00:39
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Flipswitch posted:The only TAG in PanO that I think is still subpar in N3 is the Tikbalang.
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Aug 15, 2015 01:36
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Let's be real: the Seraph and Uhlan are both mediocre at best.
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Aug 15, 2015 01:38
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Pierzak posted:What if Toni didn't exist? The Seraph is also fairly wuh but has some cool play like a Super Heavy Auxilia but Surprise Shot Uhlans are nasty as gently caress. Faster than Swiss but less in the camo department.
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Aug 15, 2015 12:11
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Cyclomatic posted:The active player had defense. If a ninja walks up to a corner and chooses not to use stealth as first short skill, and provokes a zoc ARO, and the ARO is to shoot at the ninja with an illegal flamethrower shot, the ninja has a decision to make about moving around the corner and making that ARO legal or not. I don't think Shoot is a valid ZoC ARO. You need a target to Shoot.
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Aug 15, 2015 14:14
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WAR FOOT posted:I don't think Shoot is a valid ZoC ARO. You need a target to Shoot. Yea. That was the tail end of a conversation where I realized I had on accident made up a rule that didn't exist because the ZoC ARO rules are basically pants on the head stupid and my brain just skipped over the possibility they could work like that. At that point it was a statement of if you could declare an illegal shot in response to a model provoking an ZoC ARO, then the result is the game working the way it is clearly intended to work instead of cheating the reactive player out of their ability to play the game. I'd guess it never came up in playtesting since the vast majority of models were it would come up have martial arts and you have to be a complete rules lawyer to argue that you can forgo stealth to give the other player an ARO because giving them an ARO 100% screws them. Which is about as dickish as when Warmachine players were turning models sideways so shield guards were out of the attackers LOS to cheat the other player out of using their shield guard to defend against the shot.
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Aug 15, 2015 15:42
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Isn't the change facing ZoC ARO for a) dodging and b) allowing you to declare subsequent normal AROs on the attacker's remaining orders on that unit?
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Aug 15, 2015 16:13
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A ZoC ARO is a benefit to the model when another model enters its ZOC from an angle where the model normally couldn't see the model to declare an ARO against it. So when a model combat jumps into your deployment zone, you've got some ability to get your models facing in the right direction. What some people with close combat troops are doing is choosing to not use the stealth granted by martial arts to force a model (that is already facing in the right way to shoot them when they come around the corner) to declare a ZoC ARO and then use their remaining short skill to then run around the corner and engage the model since they forced it to declare a pointless change of facing and can not shoot. Then on their next order they declare close combat and the model has to close combat back or try and disengage. The entire point of that is to cheat the model out of using a shooting attack they were in position to make if the player with the CC model hadn't dropped stealth, like with a flamethrower that is designed to defensively punish CC troops trying to blitz it. Pure rules lawyering.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:23
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It's pure rules lawyering except that CB has known about this for pretty much forever and chose not to change it with N3 - in fact, they pretty explicitly approved it by giving Sixth Sense L1 the ability to Delay (instead of giving that ability to all models). So it's officially approved as part of the game. I don't like it, at all, but it's there to stay.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:31
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I'd agree, if that was the only or even the major use of Sixth sense. Even inside 8 inches, the ability to declare your ARO after the second move is quite beneficial. If they closed the loophole would that make sixth sense level 1 pointless, or even over priced? No it wouldn't. There is a lot of shooting and non-close combat that happens at less than 8 inches.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:35
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Cyclomatic posted:If they closed the loophole would that make sixth sense level 1 pointless, or even over priced? Yes. I mean, I don't think that's a good reason to keep the loophole open, but SSL1 was garbage in N2 before it had the delay clause.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:44
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Corbeau posted:Yes. Hmm, it would be a bit hard to explain why you can delay your ARO if the enemy moves in your ZOC as opposed to all other times. I think making it that all AROS can be delayed wouldn't be a good idea and would change the game significantly. A question related to ZOC is a hacker moves into your ZOC, you get an ARO. What AROs can you declare?
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Aug 15, 2015 17:51
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You can always declare Reset, just like you can always declare Change Facing. And personally, I think Delay should be permitted in any circumstance that prevents the "normal" range of AROs. So in my magical fantasy world you couldn't Delay when you see someone, but if you see a camo token or a ZoC breach without LoF (both cases where you can't shoot, thus your options being restricted) then you could declare Delay. If the provoker's second action presents you with new options, then you get to declare an ARO (and if they don't, like double-moving outside LoF or as a camo token, then you get nothing at all). It would even end camo being a strange special case (without functionally changing camo). I think restricting that ability to SSL1 is clunky and inconsistent. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Aug 15, 2015 |
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Aug 15, 2015 17:52
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I think you are vastly underselling the value of SS at close range. Or at least I play with Kitsune and Intruders a lot. There is a biiiiiiiiiig difference between smoking a corner and having Kitsune or an intruder go into the smoke and shooting out at models that have a -12s and shooting out at models with a -6s. I hate models with SS of any level and up till now I've been playing it the wrong way. Especially since it is a really solid way for Kitsune to spend the orders to legit hose over a model with a template weapon or is berserk/competent in melee since she forces them to FtF even with a template, and it is on her unmodifiable WIP 14 while they are usually -12 to shoot back (so often don't even get to roll).
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Aug 15, 2015 19:53
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Is there any decent place to get templates and cubed outside of operation icestorm or the US Ariadna box?
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Aug 15, 2015 22:01
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