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"Liberalism is the objectively correct political side" I say confidently, while shoving the mutant revolutionary into a trashcan.
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Aug 20, 2017 22:58
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idonotlikepeas posted:Making him into just another spandex-clad edgy whiner isn't an interesting take on the character, because it's really just transforming him into a new character, but keeping the name Superman on there for cynical marketing reasons. I don't think you've seen the movie.
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Aug 20, 2017 22:59
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:(but not really because it's loving smart phone app jesus christ). idonotlikepeas posted:No, it's hated because it betrays the ur-myth that gave rise to Superman
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Aug 20, 2017 22:59
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Come back on to find the nicest of all possible meltdowns.  idonotlikepeas posted:That said, the comic makes no bones about its liberal bona fides. Given that liberalism is the objectively correct political side, of course, I have no problem with this. Sorry, progressivism is the correct political side. Empty gestures for the sake of virtue signalling can gently caress off.
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Aug 20, 2017 23:12
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:This is an incredibly facile, thoughtless disavowal that as directly as possible denies even the existence of systemic problems in order to deny one's own complicity in them. The simple, obvious rejoinder is that he knew Miles the rapist perfectly well, hung out and joked with him and watched him prey on women all cheerfully oblivious, because Miles the rapist and Miles the good buddy we're one and the same and there was no conflict between them. And all the kindly supportive Strong Female Protagonist just quietly nods along and accepts this as Clevin cleansing himself off his sins, rather than being a cowardly worm who on hearing of a rape is firstly and solely concerned that he doesn't have to look or feel bad. See, your contention here is something that is not shown. Clevin, the tacit supporter of rape, who watched Miles prey on women? The closest we have is him not noticing Miles doing it because he's trying to hit on Alison and it's happening behind him. The point of Miles is not that, it's that a rapist can definitely be your best friend, and you might not even know it. The reaction of everyone at that party was "no, you are being unreasonable, our good buddy Miles from class is not that person", and yeah, it turns out he is that person, and Alison actually gets punished by most of them for pointing it out in one way or another. Clevin's idea of him that died was certainly not a rapist; why should he continue to imagine him that way? How could he, once the truth was revealed? You can't view a person in the same way once you understand that they've done something that horrible. What did you actually expect him to say instead? BravestOfTheLamps posted:Your nonsense criticism is that the movie is This Thing instead of This Other Thing. In fact, you're pretty much describing the movie's sequel where the other title character is the famous sympathetic fascist, Batman. No, my criticism is "this thing is definitely not a deep symbolic exploration of fascism, it's a stupid movie which is just as much about people punching each other as other superhero movies, but has fewer other redeeming qualities". BravestOfTheLamps posted:"Ur-myth that gave rise to Superman?" I'm not sure you actually understand Superman, and are instead quoting a single part of All-Star Superman (probably the silliest beat in an otherwise good comic). Grant Morrison himself said that the actual appeal of Superman is that he's an Everyman character squared to absurdity. The interpretation of Superman in MoS is rather close to this in how he's brought back to his proletarian roots. Grant Morrison is a decent writer, but he's wrong about this. Or right, but in another way. He's morally superior to other people precisely because he can achieve what an everyman character would want the best solution to be in most circumstances. BravestOfTheLamps posted:Notice that you aren't even trying to say what makes SFP good anymore. Focus less on your breathless run-on paragraphs. Because we aren't even talking about SFP anymore? You seemed more interested in talking about these bad movies instead, and I'm happy to oblige. BravestOfTheLamps posted:e: The whole psychopathology here is interesting, like how you earnestly wish a reboot to erase the memory of Wrong Superman, as if you were deifying market forces as a righteous judge. Good heavens, and now you'll attempt to diagnose me with mental illness over the Internet, definitely the move of people who have a good argument and interesting things to say. Time grinds all things to dust. I'm just saying I'll be happy when it happens to Wrong Superman so I don't have to be exposed to him anymore. BravestOfTheLamps posted:"Liberalism is the objectively correct political side" I say confidently, while shoving the mutant revolutionary into a trashcan. You mean, the "revolutionary" claiming to be associated with someone she knew for a fact he wasn't, who physically assaulted her before she did anything, and whom she sent the police to pick up so he'd be okay? You guys pick the weirdest people to defend. super sweet best pal posted:Sorry, progressivism is the correct political side. Empty gestures for the sake of virtue signalling can gently caress off. "Virtue signalling" is a term used almost exclusively by the Right to try to make those on the Left feel badly about themselves. You would do well to avoid adopting their rhetoric. I appreciate that you see a difference between Progressivism and Liberalism, but there isn't a significant one; they're on the same side with minor doctrinal disagreements.
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Aug 20, 2017 23:20
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"Liberalism is the objectively correct political opinion. Also systematic racism and oppression doesn't exist because if it did I'd be complacent in it and since I'm objective correct morally then I can't be part of something bad."Nuebot posted:Is that what it's all about? They threw a loving fancy party for a smart phone app? This loving comic. Yeah no this comic's morals and politics are the most white know-nothing liberal poo poo and it's hilarious to watch peas act like this is somehow transgressive or 'ballsy'. idonotlikepeas posted:
It wasn't liberals out there last Saturday pulling people out of groups of Nazi's beating the poo poo out of them, it was Antifa and the DSA and IWW and other leftist groups. Liberals were the people on TV and twitter using the term Alt-left and telling people to just ignore the nazi's and stay home and eat cake. Please don't pretend you know anything. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 23:21
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idonotlikepeas posted:"Virtue signalling" is a term used almost exclusively by the Right to try to make those on the Left feel badly about themselves. You would do well to avoid adopting their rhetoric. I appreciate that you see a difference between Progressivism and Liberalism, but there isn't a significant one; they're on the same side with minor doctrinal disagreements. Nah, it's started being used by the far left to mock the rich centrist left.
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Aug 20, 2017 23:24
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idonotlikepeas posted:See, your contention here is something that is not shown. Clevin, the tacit supporter of rape, who watched Miles prey on women? The closest we have is him not noticing Miles doing it because he's trying to hit on Alison and it's happening behind him. The point of Miles is not that, it's that a rapist can definitely be your best friend, and you might not even know it. The reaction of everyone at that party was "no, you are being unreasonable, our good buddy Miles from class is not that person", and yeah, it turns out he is that person, and Alison actually gets punished by most of them for pointing it out in one way or another. Clevin's idea of him that died was certainly not a rapist; why should he continue to imagine him that way? How could he, once the truth was revealed? You can't view a person in the same way once you understand that they've done something that horrible. What did you actually expect him to say instead? Holy poo poo lmao
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Aug 20, 2017 23:26
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this thread's going places
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Aug 20, 2017 23:30
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Nuebot posted:Is that what it's all about? They threw a loving fancy party for a smart phone app? This loving comic. It's a charitable volunteer organization, which has a phone app as one way of letting people ask for help from it. Nuebot posted:Hm, yes. The ur-myth of super mans. Never mind the decades of comic history where he explicitly hasn't been "the best of us" because non-poo poo writers realized a very long time ago that writing him as a flawless god makes for a very boring character. A lesson the writer of SFP has yet to learn, apparently. Superman goes through cycles where people throw mud on him a bit, then clean him off again. Sort of like Captain America, although thankfully Superman is not presently a Nazi. And of course there has to be conflict somewhere, because you can't build a story without it. His moral qualities are still the central aspect of his character; they're certainly more important than whatever his array of powers is this morning. ZenMasterBullshit posted:It wasn't liberals out there last Saturday pulling people out of groups of Nazi's beating the poo poo out of them, it was Antifa and the DSA and IWW and other leftist groups. Liberals were the people on TV and twitter using the term Alt-left and telling people to just ignore the nazi's and stay home and eat cake. Please don't pretend you know anything. That's some stupid poo poo, dude. Liberals protest all the goddamned time; hell, yesterday they were out in force where I live and that protest went great. Getting leftist groups to complain about each other is how the Right tends to win. Focus on the real enemy first, then worry about exactly how wealth redistribution will work or whether we ditch capitalism altogether once we don't have literal fascists as a real political force.
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Aug 20, 2017 23:32
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idonotlikepeas posted:Counterpoint: the comic is good, and I'm glad I supported it. I especially liked how the kickstarter grossed around 20% more than the last one; I hope the third volume does the same when they get around to printing it, although that kind of thing is seldom linear. It's great seeing creators get rewarded for their hard work. Unfortunately, neither the writer nor the artist is likely to show up at a local con, so I won't be able to get this one signed. If that ever does happen, though, I'll make sure to pick up an extra copy or two in the name of this thread, and give them to friends or a local library or something. YEAH AND HE MADE HER PASTA
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Aug 20, 2017 23:32
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Oh god it make so much sense why peas still really likes this comic. They're the same kind of bland liberal Allison and the author are in that they're nominally for the betterment of minority groups but don't know or want to talk about the actual systematic problems people face. We're about 4 posts from how earned income tax credits are clearly way better for poor people than Universal health care.
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Aug 20, 2017 23:32
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Why didn't you thank me in your speech? I made pasta Geeze man I'm sorry you are my true friend pasta buddy
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Aug 20, 2017 23:33
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We're going to stop people being raped by making an app. It's not like abused women already could ask for help but don't because of social factors or being denial, it's because 911 is so hard to use is all
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Aug 20, 2017 23:35
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I'm sorry, I'd love to help save the day by beating up Hitler JR: The Reincarnation of Evil but my boyfriend made a LOT of pasta and I have to go eat it to make him feel good.
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Aug 20, 2017 23:35
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i'm a superhero but i don't think i'm a good enough one and there's nothing special about me i got impasta syndrome
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Aug 20, 2017 23:36
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God drat that alt-right for making good people feel bad for covering for Jerry Sandusky, when they didn't actually see him gently caress any kids and their conception of him was as a nice guy who did football good  I'm basically bell hooks
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Aug 20, 2017 23:37
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Oh god it make so much sense why peas still really likes this comic. They're the same kind of bland liberal Allison and the author are in that they're nominally for the betterment of minority groups but don't know or want to talk about the actual systematic problems people face. Man, are you serious? Jesus Christ, okay. Universal Health Care is a human right that should be extended to every human being, and doing anything else is monstrous. Our current system will also require a universal basic income very shortly; the pressures of automation have already started to demonstrate the flaws of capitalism, and the current setup is unsustainable in the long- or even medium-term. The correct political choice in the next election will be the same as the last one; vote for the leftmost candidate in the Democratic primary, then vote for whomever the dems run in the general to keep Trump from having a second term. None of this will, of course, affect minority interests much at all; what will have a much stronger long-term effect on that is the gradual reduction of the white population; the less power people who look like me have, the better life in America will be for everyone else. Anything else you'd like to know?
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Aug 20, 2017 23:37
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Clevin please you have to stop making pasta, I had to close down my hot app business to afford all the grocery bills please Clevin you have to stop cooking pasta.
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Aug 20, 2017 23:39
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idonotlikepeas posted:No, my criticism is "this thing is definitely not a deep symbolic exploration of fascism, it's a stupid movie which is just as much about people punching each other as other superhero movies, but has fewer other redeeming qualities". Yes, it is not particularly complex, which is what you mean by "depth". idonotlikepeas posted:Grant Morrison is a decent writer, but he's wrong about this. Or right, but in another way. He's morally superior to other people precisely because he can achieve what an everyman character would want the best solution to be in most circumstances. Your whole argument of what Superman is comes from the comic he wrote. idonotlikepeas posted:whom she sent the police to pick up so he'd be okay? You guys pick the weirdest people to defend.  She was so thoughtful for the proletarian mutant who cannot hurt her in any way.
BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Aug 20, 2017 |
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Aug 20, 2017 23:44
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I thought it was pretty contrived in that rape chapter how Allison used her previously unannounced poewr of rape-o-vision to see a bunch of rape stuff Clevin and the rest of the party literally couldn't and certainly hadn't many times before, it really ran against the premise of tackling problems superpowers aren't uniquely good at solving.
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Aug 20, 2017 23:44
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idonotlikepeas posted:what will have a much stronger long-term effect on that is the gradual reduction of the white population; the less power people who look like me have, the better life in America will be for everyone else. Anything else you'd like to know? Just at self-hating white people. Nice meltdown.
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Aug 20, 2017 23:46
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Yes, it is not deep. It's nuanced, which is a different thing from complexity, which is what you mean by "depth". It is neither. I mean, if you imagine representing someone as Alien Hitler is nuanced, well, I hate to imagine what kind of media you generally consume. BravestOfTheLamps posted:Your argument quite literally rests on his comic where you got the whole idea of Superman being so good that humans couldn't even imagine him. All-Star Superman was around the mid-2000s, I think? My impression of Superman was formed in the late eighties and early nineties, which is when I read his books a lot more regularly. I just check in from time to time these days, out of nostalgia, mostly, since I have trouble imagining anyone will come up with a particularly new take on the character. And no, the point is the Superman is exactly as good as humans can imagine him. Really, it would be a lot better if you stopped trying to imagine what my argument is and maybe read some of it? BravestOfTheLamps posted:Just Oh, it's not a matter of hatred. Simply demographics. People will tend to act in their self-interest; by having fewer white people in power, the interests of others will be represented more often. That's not even a controversial opinion, it's mainstream thought. The dominance of white culture in America will end at some point because it will be unsustainable from a population perspective, and that will be beneficial for other cultures that want to have their interests represented. It's one of the reasons folks like Trump have power; there are a lot of white people that are afraid of this idea.
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Aug 20, 2017 23:53
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idonotlikepeas posted:It is neither. I mean, if you imagine representing someone as Alien Hitler is nuanced, well, I hate to imagine what kind of media you generally consume. I don't think you've seen Man of Steel.
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Aug 20, 2017 23:54
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:
Allison: "God I want to help the poor not just beat up bad guy" Rat man: "Hi I'm a homeless rat man with word about some real issues faced by the underclass an-" *Is cut off by allison throwing him into the trash* OP: "God what a bastion of true, objectively correct liberalism.  "
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Aug 20, 2017 23:55
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idonotlikepeas posted:My impression of Superman was formed in the late eighties and early nineties, which is when I read his books a lot more regularly. Except you would have been reading comics right around the extreme anti-hero era where everything was being pushed towards being dark and gritty. Even superman. The only time superman was presented as being the bestest most purest guy ever was when he died and they had lex luthor show up and cry at his funeral or whatever. Then he just came back to life because whoops, turns out he never actually died.
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Aug 21, 2017 00:00
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What are the thread's thoughts on President Trump? I've got to say, I'm not completely happy with him so far.
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Aug 21, 2017 00:01
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Trump is the president that the Strong Female Setting deserves.
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Aug 21, 2017 00:02
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Nuebot posted:Except you would have been reading comics right around the extreme anti-hero era where everything was being pushed towards being dark and gritty. Even superman. The only time superman was presented as being the bestest most purest guy ever was when he died and they had lex luthor show up and cry at his funeral or whatever. Then he just came back to life because whoops, turns out he never actually died. An now he's back with a MULLET and a BLACK COSTUME and he's gotta fight AN EVIL ROBOT HIM and another EVIL ROBOT HIM. Like I guess the Bruce Timm cartoons were the late late 90's and were pretty good at doing the 'Superman as a boyscout' thing.
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Aug 21, 2017 00:02
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I don't think you've seen Man of Steel. Oh, I have. 143 precious minutes of my life that I will never get back. ZenMasterBullshit posted:Allison: "God I want to help the poor not just beat up bad guy"   Above: definitely a totally innocent person trying to make a political point and being oppressed by The Man with her terrible power of "politely asking questions until she has to restrain him to prevent further damage to her belongings". Nuebot posted:Except you would have been reading comics right around the extreme anti-hero era where everything was being pushed towards being dark and gritty. Even superman. The only time superman was presented as being the bestest most purest guy ever was when he died and they had lex luthor show up and cry at his funeral or whatever. Then he just came back to life because whoops, turns out he never actually died. Superman stood out for me precisely because he never got as "gritty" as a lot of other heroes did, until you got to bullshit like At Earth's End, which was more late nineties and definitely could be dumped into the alternative universe bucket. (Note that most people hate that book, too.) "Gritty" takes of Superman tend to die off, because they're stupid. Once you make Superman morally ambiguous, you've removed the thing that makes him Superman.
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Aug 21, 2017 00:04
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:An now he's back with a MULLET and a BLACK COSTUME and he's gotta fight AN EVIL ROBOT HIM and another EVIL ROBOT HIM. The DCAU was pretty great at that because there was an entire like series long arc in the Justice League cartoon about him just being so god drat tired with everything to the point where he starts lobotomizing criminals and just chucking them in the phantom zone leading to an alternate timeline where a bunch of really bad stuff happens such as him killing the president.
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Aug 21, 2017 00:09
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As an enlightened superhero who no longer wants to do violence, I believe an app is the best way
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Aug 21, 2017 00:10
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idonotlikepeas posted:My impression of Superman was formed in the late eighties and early nineties, which is when I read his books a lot more regularly. I did not stop to think that this makes you at least a decade older than me, and you're arguing over webcomics. idonotlikepeas posted:
Wow, that's actually worse than I remembered. You managed to make Allison look worse. Pay attention to her utterly disdainful demeanor as she casually kicks Rat into air and catches him with a trash can.
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Aug 21, 2017 00:10
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The wise liberal basically-progressive position of staunchly defending Stand Your Ground provided it's a jacket and not a life in jeopardy
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Aug 21, 2017 00:10
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idonotlikepeas posted:
Women literally impervious to damage ruffs up tiny rat man who has a history with authority figures treating him poorly. Like their pursuit of justice was what that whole (admittedly dropped) plot thread was supposed to be and you're cheering for the super strong woman that easily threw him around and told him she'd be doing him a favor if she killed him. Like for someone who was earlier praising the comics handling of the ambiguity of Allison's misuse of force you sure are fast to gloss over how poorly she handles literally any situation where she uses force. "Oh no, he might tear up a jacket more, better make sure he knows how little I value his life instead of just picking him up until he tires out/calms down." With a nice side of "Hey why is this oppressed minority so quick to be distrustful of people in power? I just don't understand why he would react violently to an unstoppable super human chasing him down an alley then throwing a dumpster to block his only exit!!!" ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Aug 21, 2017 |
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Aug 21, 2017 00:11
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"Jesus Christ, you coulda put a hole in my head widdat finger!" "Woulda been doing you a favor, Rat." Notice how she imitates his speech pattern to mock him.
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Aug 21, 2017 00:12
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idonotlikepeas I feel like you're a good authority to come to on this, has anyone yet made the proper liberal comic about the unjust persecution of lovable Twinkie aficionado Jose Luis Gonzalez
A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Aug 21, 2017 |
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Aug 21, 2017 00:15
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Women literally impervious to damage ruffs up tiny rat man who has a history with authority figures treating him poorly. Like their pursuit of justice was what that whole (admittedly dropped) plot thread was supposed to be and you're cheering for the super strong woman that easily threw him around and told him she'd be doing him a favor if she killed him. Like for someone who was earlier praising the comics handling of the ambiguity of Allison's misuse of force you sure are fast to gloss over how poorly she handles literally any situation where she uses force. I'm sorry, what dropped thread are you talking about? Rat here is servicing the "someone is pretending to be Menace and reactivating his organization" plotline, which was last mentioned in the issue before last (and might well be coming up again now, given that Menace is back in the comic right now). Alison always solves her problems with violence; it's kind of a bad thing about her character, so I'm not cheering for that, but I don't have a lot of sympathy for the henchman of the mass-murderer either. Again, this is just a case of you assigning qualities to Rat that he doesn't have to go for the worst possibly interpretation. It's like sympathizing with a gangster Superman punches because their bullets can't hurt him. BravestOfTheLamps posted:I did not stop to think that this makes you at least a decade older than me, and you're arguing over webcomics. drat right. This has been a great way to spend an afternoon while I'm sick; telling people with incredibly bad interpretations of media that they're wrong is a bit of a guilty pleasure that I try not to indulge in too frequently. Apologies if I don't come back to explain to you how you're wrong again tomorrow, I'll probably be too busy at work.
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Aug 21, 2017 00:21
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I also like how the page starts with her literally throwing a loving dumpster at him to corner him. A literal cornered rat lashes out at a more powerful aggressor until she effortlessly knocks him into the air them traps him.
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Aug 21, 2017 00:21
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idonotlikepeas posted:drat right. This has been a great way to spend an afternoon while I'm sick; telling people with incredibly bad interpretations of media that they're wrong is a bit of a guilty pleasure that I try not to indulge in too frequently. Apologies if I don't come back to explain to you how you're wrong again tomorrow, I'll probably be too busy at work. Nice meltdown. Zerilan posted:I also like how the page starts with her literally throwing a loving dumpster at him to corner him. A literal cornered rat lashes out at a more powerful aggressor until she effortlessly knocks him into the air them traps him. She is not good with violence.
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Aug 21, 2017 00:24
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