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pmchem posted:in the post you originally replied to, I was comparing market caps of zoom and ford (actually -- I was also responding to a post which did just that). You said to look at EV instead. Now you're saying market cap is a more fair measure because it accounts for debt. So which is it, should we be looking at market cap or EV when comparing the worth of companies? I'm saying that EV is a more fair comparison of a companies size because it includes debt, market cap just looks at outstanding equity distortion park fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Oct 25, 2020 |
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Oct 25, 2020 19:33
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jokes posted:EV was a big thing back when fundamental analysis was the thing to do which, arguably, has fallen to the wayside for retail investors. It was a response to people fixating on book value or some such, and EV provides more of a "holistic" image. The point isn't that it's important one way or another to assessing if the stock price is over or under valued, it's that just looking at the market cap doesn't give a good view of a companies size. Markets dinner think that zoom, the company, is four times as valuable as ford, they think that they have vaguely similar values, ford just happens to have a bunch of its value as outstanding debt
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Oct 25, 2020 19:37
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pointsofdata posted:The point isn't that it's important one way or another to assessing if the stock price is over or under valued, it's that just looking at the market cap doesn't give a good view of a companies size. Markets dinner think that zoom, the company, is four times as valuable as ford, they think that they have vaguely similar values, ford just happens to have a bunch of its value as outstanding debt OK, I get your point for comparing "company size". That's valid. quote:"Markets dinner think that zoom, the company, is four times as valuable as ford" But the market cap is *exactly* the market value. Zoom is worth four times as much as ford *because* ford is leveraged to the gills.
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Oct 25, 2020 19:41
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Market cap is the value of a companies equity, not the company as a whole. Imagine your company was "$1000 of dollar bills in a vault, to be liquidiated in a few days". If you issued had $900 of debt and had one outstanding share, that share would be worth about $100, and the debt is probably valued at par. The company is valued by the market as being worth about $1000
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Oct 25, 2020 19:45
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I get your points now, I think we were just talking past each other. Most conversations in this thread assume we're talking about stock valuations.
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Oct 25, 2020 19:48
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Like you wouldn't say your house, which sells for $1million, is worth $100k because you have a 90% mortgage. E: sure makes sense
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Oct 25, 2020 19:48
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Does Ford actually struggle to service its debt? They've made America's most sellingest car for ~40 years in a row and over half of their sales are to organizations that slam that "Buy the new Ford Truck" button every few years, regardless of what the competition is offering. Doomed because they aren't gonna sell anymore Fiestas to 16 year olds?
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Oct 25, 2020 19:51
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pointsofdata posted:Market cap is the value of a companies equity, not the company as a whole. Imagine your company was "$1000 of dollar bills in a vault, to be liquidiated in a few days". If you issued had $900 of debt and had one outstanding share, that share would be worth about $100, and the debt is probably valued at par. The company is valued by the market as being worth about $1000 Man, I feel like we are in the semantic weeds, but definitions do matter in investing. The market value of the company, and of the one share that represents the company, is $100. quote:Like you wouldn't say your house, which sells for $1million, is worth $100k because you have a 90% mortgage. The house is worth 1 million, but the company that owns the house (ford in this case) is worth 100k. I may "own" a million dollar house, but in actuality I only have $100K in equity. The bank owns the house. Baddog fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Oct 25, 2020 |
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Oct 25, 2020 19:54
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In this case the house is the company though. Think about what happens when a company gets liquidated - it's assets get sold off, and the value is given to various parties in a specific order of preference. Equity just happens to be the most junior of those parties.
distortion park fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Oct 25, 2020 |
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Oct 25, 2020 20:05
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:Does Ford actually struggle to service its debt? They've made America's most sellingest car for ~40 years in a row and over half of their sales are to organizations that slam that "Buy the new Ford Truck" button every few years, regardless of what the competition is offering. not so good if the us collapses in trumpian proud boy handmaiden world civil war now is it????? hmm??? didnt think of that did you??? smart guy??
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Oct 25, 2020 20:05
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Owned for massive damage!
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Oct 25, 2020 20:09
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pmchem posted:EV in the context above refers to enterprise value, not electric vehicle I was responding to the earlier discussion but I see why it's confusing Squalid posted:The problem with Ford is that it has a real chance of going out of business in the next decade. Unless it goes all in on EVs immediately, something there is no indication it has any plans to do, it’s hard to imagine much of a future for the company.
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Oct 25, 2020 22:00
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Smythe posted:not so good if the us collapses in trumpian proud boy handmaiden world civil war now is it????? hmm??? didnt think of that did you??? smart guy?? Depends? Do we finally get Hiluxes in the states or will all technicals be F-150s?
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Oct 26, 2020 00:29
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Ford has shifted from an American car company into an American fund whose primary holdings are foreign car factories. I hate their trucks and I liked the Fusion I do not like Ford!!!!
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Oct 26, 2020 00:40
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Ford's revenue growth is either anemic or flat out in decline. Why anyone would want to own such a bloated non-growing company is beyond me. I also don't get the fascination of comparing F to other companies...especially ones with actual and even exponential growth.
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Oct 26, 2020 05:37
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dat Bronco doe
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Oct 26, 2020 05:46
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Kal Torak posted:Ford's revenue growth is either anemic or flat out in decline. Why anyone would want to own such a bloated non-growing company is beyond me. GoGoGadgetChris posted:dat Bronco doe This is a crazy week for earnings https://twitter.com/eWhispers/status/1319977329972727810
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Oct 26, 2020 06:48
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Kal Torak posted:Ford's revenue growth is either anemic or flat out in decline. Why anyone would want to own such a bloated non-growing company is beyond me. I also don't get the fascination of comparing F to other companies...especially ones with actual and even exponential growth. idk i wouldn’t mind having an ownership stake in ford motors
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Oct 26, 2020 12:41
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PLTR closed at 9.49 on Friday https://twitter.com/wallstjesus/status/1320685062669635584?s=21
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Oct 26, 2020 13:10
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We're primed for a COVID red week. Could bankrupt 95% of WSB, which is all-in on calls because this is is a huge earnings report week. I'm staying away, volatility and unforseen material news are going to be crazy.
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Oct 26, 2020 14:06
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I am new to the Stock Market and want to make a lot of money I am watching Alibaba might buy shares
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Oct 26, 2020 14:23
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Sjs00 posted:I am new to the Stock Market and want to make a lot of money I am watching Alibaba might buy shares Something something forty thieves.
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Oct 26, 2020 14:58
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Thanks much to whoever on here pointed out SELB. U da bes
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Oct 26, 2020 15:04
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And a red candle for you And here's one for you And you.. And
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Oct 26, 2020 15:49
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FistEnergy posted:We're primed for a COVID red week. Could bankrupt 95% of WSB, which is all-in on calls because this is is a huge earnings report week. I'm staying away, volatility and unforseen material news are going to be crazy. [dances in cash] I mostly mashed "sell" last week, so I'm going to  this week.
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Oct 26, 2020 16:10
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I bought a few SPY puts at open this morning and they're doing the Lord's work.
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Oct 26, 2020 16:11
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Everything is in place this week for a perfect storm. Smoke' em if you got' em and also hold on to yer butts.
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Oct 26, 2020 16:23
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I want to buy a bunch of 2 week SPY puts and the only thing making me hesitate is the chance of a desperation stimulus deal.
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Oct 26, 2020 16:43
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The Senate is too busy with the SC nomination, and the Senate Republicans still have zero actual written plans to put to the floor. I don't think they could get anything out if they wanted, which at last check they didn't.
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Oct 26, 2020 17:13
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FistEnergy posted:We're primed for a COVID red week. Could bankrupt 95% of WSB, which is all-in on calls because this is is a huge earnings report week. I'm staying away, volatility and unforseen material news are going to be crazy.
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Oct 26, 2020 17:24
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pmchem posted:yes, it's gonna be a loving mess next month. it took a week or two longer than I expected but this change I made is now solidly ahead of S&P 500 (as benchmark)
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Oct 26, 2020 18:36
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I'm having an extremely hard to not FOMOing and starting my big short early. I was going to wait until around the 27th-29th for a green day to get my VIX calls and SPY puts ready but when the market drops almost 3%... Good lord someone hold me back from that short button.
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Oct 26, 2020 18:37
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AHH F/UGH posted:I'm having an extremely hard to not FOMOing and starting my big short early. I was going to wait until around the 27th-29th for a green day to get my VIX calls and SPY puts ready but when the market drops almost 3%... Good lord someone hold me back from that short button. What's your play, if you don't mind sharing? I'm currently torn between rolling short DTE SPY puts and one longer play for the end of the year. Going short-term costs a lot of theta, but you avoid your position being screwed by a surprise stimulus deal. I'm leaning towards a short-term strategy because I figure that the COVID spike will be front-page news by the end of the week, while a stimulus deal before the election is very unlikely. I think there is a window right now before anything meaningful could counteract all the bad news.
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Oct 26, 2020 19:10
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FistEnergy posted:What's your play, if you don't mind sharing? I'm currently torn between rolling short DTE SPY puts and one longer play for the end of the year. Going short-term costs a lot of theta, but you avoid your position being screwed by a surprise stimulus deal. I'm leaning towards a short-term strategy because I figure that the COVID spike will be front-page news by the end of the week, while a stimulus deal before the election is very unlikely. I think there is a window right now before anything meaningful could counteract all the bad news. UVXY Dec 18th calls, betting on covid and election pandemonium but I want to make the calls far out enough that the theta doesn't burn before their value pops off (if, I should say). Then after it seems like the poo poo is hitting the fan I'll swap back to even longer-dated March 2021 puts since I expect things to somewhat calm down at that point. I'm looking at the $25 since it's not insanely overpriced but also not too far off getting passed from a few red days. I think we *could* see over 40 and I might roll my position a few times over to try and ride the wave if it does indeed come and we get some more big red candle days.  Keep in mind, however, that I am a legendarily bad investor and inversing me on every play I've ever made would have made you extremely rich up to this point.
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Oct 26, 2020 19:20
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GoGoGadgetChris posted:dat Bronco doe The only decent looking car is the now discontinued toyota FJ cruiser
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Oct 26, 2020 19:30
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I touched the Intel poop
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Oct 26, 2020 19:31
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Hit Man posted:I touched the Intel poop ...which way?
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Oct 26, 2020 19:32
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pixaal posted:...which way? Shares my friend. Not brave enough for leap calls. I'll see myself out.
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Oct 26, 2020 19:37
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Stock Number Go Down this week is definitely going to force Donny T's hand, but given the timing, I'm sure it's going to be "I promise to Do Something but only after you vote for me"
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Oct 26, 2020 19:54
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I had forgotten how shockingly expensive AMZN options are, but I feel like even when I guess right on earnings IV crush has screwed me over so I'll just sit this week out.
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Oct 26, 2020 20:24
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