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Doc Dee posted:Is Pathfinder a new player friendly system? Ha! That's a good one. No, but seriously, see Inverse Icarus's post for the real way to get folks used to Pathfinder. And for the best mechanical interpretation of Rule Zero I think I've heard in a long time.
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Nov 30, 2013 02:12
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Doc Dee posted:Is Pathfinder a new player friendly system? No, not really. Honestly, the only version of D&D that I could say is friendly to new players is maybe B/X. If you want to get into the hobby, or you want to get someone else into the hobby, there are a ton of (free!) games that will serve as much better introductory material, even if you also want all the little quirks and idiosyncrasies of Dungeons and Dragons. (Go play Dungeon World)
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Nov 30, 2013 05:01
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On the flipside, if you MUST get into Pathfinder with new players, pick up the Beginner's Box, and ONLY use that until they feel like they're comfortable with playing the game. The Box is as friendly to new players as Pathfinder can possibly get, and has rewritten character sheets that make chargen less frightening. Unfortunately, dropping a grimoire the size of a college math book onto the table WILL scare a lot of newbies, because they'll think they have to read through the entire thing. Don't worry about messing with the patchbooks until they're good and ready. Easier games for introducing new players to roleplaying as a whole are Fiasco, Dread, and for fantasy specifically, Dungeon World. I've had people running Dungeon World after playing in three sessions. I think above all, the problem with Pathfinder is that it rewards doing one thing in combat again and again, while new players usually want to try new things every round. I usually just play softball with them for the first few games while they're getting used to things. Sorcerer wants to run up and use his spear instead of spellcasting? OK go for it, bro. There will be plenty of time for optimization and caster supremacy later. EscortMission fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Nov 30, 2013 |
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Nov 30, 2013 17:24
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Doc Dee posted:Is Pathfinder a new player friendly system? In my experience, yes. They might need help to make their first character, but the learning curve is not bad. Most of the complexity comes from the multitude of higher level options, but there is no reason a new player has to take all that in at once.
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Nov 30, 2013 20:37
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Yeah, it's not ideal for new players or anything, but it's certainly functional enough. Characters and monsters played at a new player level of competence evens out, unless they bump into the grapple rules and then everyone breaks down crying.
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Nov 30, 2013 20:50
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NEXT QUESTION: Would a DEX Fighter be possible in Pathfinder, and if so, would it be way too difficult for a new player to use?
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Nov 30, 2013 22:55
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Yes. Weapon Finesse + Dervish Dance (if you don't mind using a Scimitar) or Agile Weapon Enchantment (if you don't mind paying 8000G).
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Nov 30, 2013 23:23
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Using Dex to attack in melee would require a bit more experience with the system, though archery is very easy to make strong. Dex to attack lends easily to TWF, but then you go into early problems with using full attacks, namely that they don't come very easily unless you know how to get free movement(There's a magic item which grants a move action with a swift action 1/day). The basics of Fighter TWF, you have access to weapon specialization and weapon training, which add up to do fairly respectable damage per hit. You could use it with shield combat, but that takes a fairly specific feat chain to exploit. So, recommend against for their first character, they'd need to explore the system more first, understand the dynamics of full attacking.
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Nov 30, 2013 23:39
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veekie posted:Characters and monsters played at a new player level of competence evens out, unless they bump into the grapple rules and then everyone breaks down crying.
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Dec 1, 2013 15:30
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Funny thing is they probably could have done away with the more involved aspects of grappling if they wanted. In combat a grapple would be simply having a grip on your opponent, not necessarily full out wrestling on the ground or even mutual grappling. Practically speaking grapple just needs to do the following: -The guy grabbed can't move freely without ending the grapple or forcing the opponent to move. The latter is already provided for in the rules, Bull Rush or Pull. -The guy grabbed has limited mobility. --This limits the use of a limb or other appendage. Straightforward enough to resolve, attacker picks something to grab by and the use of that is limited, restricting the use of a natural weapon, a hand or the ability to speak. --This also makes it easier to do certain things to the target, like choke them, blind them, disarm them, or throw them to the ground. This is simply an AC/CMD penalty, all of these are covered by combat maneuvers already. A stock close combat move would then to be to grapple your opponent and immediately trip them with the bonus and leave them at a big penalty. -Both grapplers find it easier to hit each other. This also makes it easy for the grapple target to grapple their opponent back. Barring some specific moves like using your victim as an improvised weapon, pinning the opponent or swallowing the victim, the whole of grappling can be a condition where a straightforward set of AC penalties and the defender is Entangled to the attacker.
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Dec 1, 2013 16:44
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In the spirit of the holidays, a present for the community - a skill challenge handbook for Pathfinder (or 13th Age or whatever your favorite flavor of d20 is) Get it here. Bear in mind this is NOT the conventional 'x successes before y failures' skill challenge. This is a new(ish) system built to play fast, write simple and keep mechanics close to fiction. Would love feedback if you read through it. RyvenCedrylle fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Feb 6, 2014 |
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Dec 1, 2013 17:40
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veekie posted:Barring some specific moves like using your victim as an improvised weapon, pinning the opponent or swallowing the victim, the whole of grappling can be a condition where a straightforward set of AC penalties and the defender is Entangled to the attacker. I dig this idea of making it more one way - i.e. someone can grapple you while you try to do something else. It makes grapple more like a sustained debuff than action denial. Dare you make it stacking and recreate overbearing rules? Perhaps the debuff halves or doubles per size step. Paolomania fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Dec 1, 2013 |
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Dec 1, 2013 19:09
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Stacking the condition already has precedent for it, what with Shaken, Frightened and Panicked. In that case I'd probably go with Grabbed(the penalties listed above, including one restrained body part), Pinned(one step further, flatfooted and all physical actions must beat your CMD first), and Restrained(helpless, unable to act except to attempt to break free)
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Dec 1, 2013 19:22
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Doc Dee posted:Is Pathfinder a new player friendly system? It's not but if your whole group is pretty new you can easily fumble through it together.
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Dec 2, 2013 02:51
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Followup on stacking grapples. Swallowing is simply a special kind of pinned really.
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Dec 2, 2013 07:40
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Alright guys, I intend to make a Wizard in the next game I play in. I've played a bit of magic classes before but I have no idea what feats are good for magic classes. I would appreciate some advice or example builds.
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Dec 4, 2013 06:25
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You'd need to define a focus or theme you're building towards, good wizard feats combinations can vary a lot, though they're pretty much feat agnostic for the most part. EDIT: Combat Casting is good on almost all of them though, and the Craft feats effectively let your party double and customize the team's wealth if your campaign has significant downtimes. Counterspells are a complete waste of time to focus on, while pumping damage is challenging relative to martial characters, but not entirely impossible. Familiars are a useful investment for scouting and combat distractions, but they'd never be much good at fighting, though some on the improved familiar list have handy special abilities for getting to useful magic that's not on your list(Outsider familiars tend to have access to a couple of divine spells) or have entirely different mobiity(Earth elementals make excellent explorers). veekie fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 06:47
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Wizard is too widely useful a class to just give a concept of what are "good feats" without more info. What level? What do you want to do, summon, blast, buff, debuff?
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Dec 5, 2013 04:12
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Actually, I'd like to jump in and ask some build questions as well, as this is my first time with Pathfinder but around my fifth time with D20. We start the game at level 9, and it is largely a subterranean dungeon-crawl. Belivi "Belly" Terrknot Objective I originally started on this character because I wanted to make a Grippli that could render foes helpless to eat their hearts with his tongue. Thing is, I think I misread the ability, so the fact that he needs to use a bladed weapon and to be adjacent kind of messes that up. If there's a way I could still do this I would be incredibly pleased, as Yoshi-ing the hearts out of chests is just goddamn hilarious, but having to get up close isn't a total dealbreaker. Being a Grippli, I'd like to be hiding and maneuvering just out of reach and preferably on a wall/ceiling so I can debuff/distract enemies. Net proficiency should help me with that, too. Race Grippli is pretty much the only thing I'm looking at, and I'm pretty set on it. Delivering touch spells with a prehensile tongue seems pretty useful, and a lot of their other traits seem to sync up with what I'm going for. Also the pun in the name doesn't work with another race  Class Either Alchemist or Witch. Originally I favored Alchemist, possibly using the Vivisectionist to sneak attack for more heart-gobbling, but Witch's propensity for eating intelligent humanoids and multiple helpless enablers has been winning me over lately. Witch also looks overall more useful for a party, and doing magical things with/to skulls seems pretty boss. Oh, and Witches can summon swarms of frogs. Yes. Progress so far Not much. I've found some spells I like and there are some cool Hexes. I'm currently slowly making my way through feats, but I'm not sure what would benefit my strategy most. No idea if there are multiclasses, alternatives, templates, or prestiges that would help me do what I'm trying to do. Kraven Moorhed fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 05:26
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I'd advise against alchemist for what you're doing in that case, it doesn't supply any good touch spells to tongue enemies with, or good CMB to perform Steal or Disarm with. Witch...iffy, most witch spells have longer range than Touch as well, but Witch natively can use the hair hex series to get better reach than Grippli does. Wizard would have the proper offensive spell array, but is a bit too fragile to be mucking about 10ft away from the enemy. I'd say Oracle actually. The divine spell list has a relatively large number of touch spells, it has better armor and depending on your Mystery it may have more touches to use with that.
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Dec 5, 2013 08:05
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Magus has a nice touch spell list, and they're built to be in the thick of it. Probably a bit flashier than what you're going for, though. EDIT: Come to think of it, considering taking your hand off a two-handed weapon is a free action, you could easily argue that Spell Combat works with a spear or another reach weapon. Stand 10ft away, get all your attacks in and then finish with a lightning lick. There's even a Magus Arcana that lets you deliver a ranged touch spell as a melee touch attack, so you use your strength instead of your dexterity for the roll. EDIT AGAIN: Use Weaponwand and pick up a few wands of whatever Witch spells you like, and you're in business. Expensive though. Eox fucked around with this message at 10:16 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 10:00
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Well I personally wouldn't recommend Magus unless you know the system well enough to squeeze out performance and ignore the traps. It's in a delicate place where it looks strong but falls far short.
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Dec 5, 2013 10:14
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Regarding licking out hearts, I'd say off-hand witch would be most suited for that, with Sleep Hex's ability to put things to sleep (aka render them instantly helpless for heart-taking) with a scaling dc and no limit aside from 1 use per target. For the slashing weapon, I'd recommend asking if your GM will let you have an altered nails hex that gives your tongue a barb or sharp tip, I'd allow a literal sharp-tongued character. Failing that, sink 1-2000gp researching a level 1 or 2 spell that does the same for minutes or 10 minutes per level, thematically similar to Ironbeard spell perhaps? I volunteer the name Silvertongue. Unrelated; how often does the barbed devil/hamatula's barbed defense proc? 1d8+6 damage to a melee attacker not using a reach weapon. The description text is unclear on whether it's once per round, once per attack action, or once per attack? Ambi fucked around with this message at 12:28 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 10:38
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The wording makes it a per hit thing. It's a great combination with the DR, since melee attackers are going to be trading damage unfavorably.
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Dec 5, 2013 10:47
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Oof, drat, I was hoping it was a per-attack action to make it slightly less painful to melee characters but still making aoo's hurt. Once per hit does make most sense, but doesn't make taking that damage seven times a round tickle less. I sadly can't think of anything that makes non-adjacent heart eating work, aside from some half-remembered metamagic that pulls/pushes foes to/from you which could fly with some bizarre thoughts. It is a neat spell though, I'm thinking of possibly adding it to a boss coming up for some of my players, flavorful buff and/or minion salvager.
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Dec 5, 2013 11:00
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The spell really isn't any good unless you have excess actions to burn. Too slow for what it does at a full round action.
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Dec 5, 2013 11:05
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Potentially fun perhaps if you carry a minor rod of quickening in your off-hand to coup de grace as a swift action? EDIT: In fact with Sleep hex that creates a nice low-level sleep or die setup; standard to slumber, move to get adjacent, swift to coup de grace which usually is a pretty heft fortitude save to not die Ambi fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 11:56
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A spell that adds on to a coup de grace is probably almost always going to be a total waste of time, particularly for a caster who is going to be delivering the helpless condition themselves. It's pretty drat hard to survive a regular coup, especially if you pack a weapon with a decent crit rating. I guess you could spend an L2 spell slot to get some THP and boosts to stats you don't care about after decapitating a Slumbering guy's head, but I can think of a dozen more practical uses for that spell, even on the Witch's narrow spell list.Ambi posted:Potentially fun perhaps if you carry a minor rod of quickening in your off-hand to coup de grace as a swift action? That could be solid, if your GM allows it, because it would let you faff about in the rear lines until your Hex hit and then move + coup in the same turn. On the other hand it also removes the last little fraction of the game in which a martial character might feel almost useful (since they're pretty good at cleaning up for the casters). But then, why is anybody playing a Fighter or Rogue alongside a Witch? J. Alfred Prufrock fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Dec 5, 2013 |
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Dec 5, 2013 12:00
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Witch is pretty good at aggressive support, with debuffs and luck manipulations that are more efficient for a martial character to exploit.
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Dec 5, 2013 12:15
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Does anyone have any statted up characters from the new classes? Next week is going to be the last session of the year for me and my friends, and I'm thinking of throwing together a gladiator-style arena to let them throw characters against each other, against NPCs I've statted up, and team up against lions and dinosaurs and whatever else. Most of my players are new and are a bit intimidated by the new classes because the automated spreadsheet doesn't support them. I'm thinking of setting up a bunch of 5th level NPCs using the new classes, and having them fight by themselves or in small teams of 3 or 4 against the PCs. The players will bring a bunch of characters to the session, and we'll just run fights until we run out of characters. I'll be spending the next week statting stuff up, but if anyone is bored/interested enough, or if you already have a suitable character that you don't mind me using, I'd love to run your characters in my game and see how they stack up against PCs.
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Dec 6, 2013 22:13
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Wow why would you use that instead of http://sourceforge.net/projects/yapcg/
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Dec 7, 2013 02:59
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Because getting people to send me files and keep sending them when they update them constantly is the stupidest thing in the world in 2013. I guess for NPC design I'll give it a shot.
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Dec 7, 2013 06:38
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There's people on the paizo website that have statted up the new guys. Hell, if you make this post there they'd probably do it for you.
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Dec 7, 2013 18:26
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Inverse Icarus posted:Because getting people to send me files and keep sending them when they update them constantly is the stupidest thing in the world in 2013. 2013, the cloud age. Dropbox that poo poo.
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Dec 7, 2013 19:54
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I asked a moderator if this was kosher and didn't get a response. If it's not, I will move to SA-MART (or wherever) I would like to pay a goon some moneys to write very specific class optimization guides for the core classes for my website. I've seen a lot of posts in this thread about optimizing builds so I know a lot of you are good at it. I just want a 3-4 page PDF for each class. I'm going to start with just one, but if it does well there will be more after that. Please PM me or email jordan at herosheets dot com with interest and your rate. Edit - thanks for replies - found someone! bacon! fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Dec 10, 2013 |
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Dec 9, 2013 21:18
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How much extended material are we talking about? Archetypes? Feats, races and equipment from other books?
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Dec 9, 2013 21:48
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veekie posted:How much extended material are we talking about? Archetypes? Feats, races and equipment from other books? For now, just focused on the CRB.
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Dec 9, 2013 22:11
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The guy designing Pathfinder posted:Anything like these suggested brawler disciplines are exactly the sort of thing that would make an interesting combat feat, and should be available to any character able to select combat feats (because these aren't unique, magical abilities, because this isn't a magical class, so they're things you should be able to learn with the proper training, and therefore should be combat feats). SKR confirms that only magical abilities can be unique. Suck it mundanes.
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Dec 12, 2013 18:45
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Why are these guys so obsessed with caster supremacy? Have they seriously never played their own game past level 7?
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Dec 12, 2013 19:36
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Tezzor posted:Why are these guys so obsessed with caster supremacy? Have they seriously never played their own game past level 7? Of course they have. Which is why they are obsessed with caster supremacy.
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Dec 12, 2013 19:40
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