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Now that I've got my home lab upgraded a bit (20 total gigs of ram, 3.4ghz Xeon processor, 250gig SSD+1TB 5400RPM drive), I'm going to start deploying some additional VMs to do more than just AD/DNS/DHCP. I know I need at least one more Windows VM to run vSphere web client off of, but are there any other services that are best to be isolated on their own VM like the DC services? I was thinking of making an application server for vSphere web client and a few other things, an IIS/Print server, and another VM to host GNS3.
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Apr 10, 2015 03:04
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Why do you need a dedicated (or even shared) system for the web client? Or are you talking about vCenter?
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Apr 10, 2015 15:07
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In practice its best to to have print services dedicated to its own vm. The drivers you get from vendors can be absolute garbage with things that conflict or require reboots to clear out and resolve problems and you don't want your AD bouncing along with it. File services should also be separated.
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Apr 10, 2015 15:46
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BangersInMyKnickers posted:In practice its best to to have print services dedicated to its own vm. The drivers you get from vendors can be absolute garbage with things that conflict or require reboots to clear out and resolve problems and you don't want your AD bouncing along with it. File services should also be separated. This is pro advice. Our Server 2008 R2 print servers need bounced more than we'd like due to lovely drivers from Konica Minolta.
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Apr 10, 2015 15:58
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Richard Noggin posted:Why do you need a dedicated (or even shared) system for the web client? Or are you talking about vCenter? Whoops, sorry yes, vCenter. BangersInMyKnickers posted:In practice its best to to have print services dedicated to its own vm. The drivers you get from vendors can be absolute garbage with things that conflict or require reboots to clear out and resolve problems and you don't want your AD bouncing along with it. File services should also be separated. Yeah, I think I was just tired when I was typing everything out last night, I don't know why I was thinking of trying to combine print services with anything with all of the printer problems we seem to have at work, and seeing as I just brought an old printer home from work to use...yup. I'll definitely be setting up file services on a separate VM too, but that's a bit down the line.
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Apr 10, 2015 19:23
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evol262 posted:You can just install centos, add the ovirt repos, install engine-setup, and go. Everything else can be done from a web ui that's point and click. Gluster is a check box. Adding bricks is a wizard Update, I received the eBay server components and built two identical Proliants up from scratch, I'm talking like thermal paste and heatsinks on the Xeons, lots of fun actually. I had to scour for a mirror to get the newest HP SPP firmware installer, because half a year ago they apparently stuck it all behind a Cisco-style support contract wall. Pretty hosed up. It worked though, updated my iLO, raid controllers, etc. Anyhoo, I put a 1tb 850 Evo in each server and fired them up. I installed CentOS7, Gnome, oVirt, engine-setup, and got the web UI up. You're right that it's not too bad for someone who's allergic to CLI. The stuff I'm stuck on now is figuring out: 1) Each server has two gigabit NICs, I want to team the two in an active-active load balance (i.e. if one of the NICs or switches goes bad, there's a redundant connection). All I can find online is some madness with JSON Runners and more CLI stuff. If I use the Network Setup GUI to create a team, with the two ethernet as slaves, it cuts out the connection until I revert it. I tried telling both NICs to pretend to be the same MAC and that doesn't seem to help. I've done this in Windows with the HP smart start wizards before but this is kicking my rear end. 2) What's the high-level best practice for HA in this setup, i.e. two servers and no NAS (gluster essentially making them both a NAS)? Should I be installing the oVirt web ui on both and somehow linking them after the fact so I can manage the same VMs from either? 3) With each of the servers having a single 1TB flash drive at the moment, I'd want to make an equal sized gluster partition/brick on each drive, and tell Gluster to do a "distributed replicated volume" right? Then just start spinning up VMs on that volume and I'm good to go?
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Apr 10, 2015 21:30
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Zero VGS posted:Update, I received the eBay server components and built two identical Proliants up from scratch, I'm talking like thermal paste and heatsinks on the Xeons, lots of fun actually. I had to scour for a mirror to get the newest HP SPP firmware installer, because half a year ago they apparently stuck it all behind a Cisco-style support contract wall. Pretty hosed up. It worked though, updated my iLO, raid controllers, etc. engine-setup (and hosted-engine-setups) are wizards which prompt you for everything you need. Zero VGS posted:The stuff I'm stuck on now is figuring out: Or you can follow this. Which "mode" you need depends on how you have your switch configured, and it's not clear from this exactly which mode you want, but it's pretty friendly if you follow the docs. Do not use tlb or alb Zero VGS posted:2) What's the high-level best practice for HA in this setup, i.e. two servers and no NAS (gluster essentially making them both a NAS)? Should I be installing the oVirt web ui on both and somehow linking them after the fact so I can manage the same VMs from either? Go to the "hosts" tab and you can add one. You enter the root password, it installs vdsm, adds itself to the cluster, and you pretty much go from there. That said, you should set up a gluster brick and run a hosted engine on top of that. The hosted engine is basically the same as VMware's "run vCenter on vSphere" bits. Create a brick between the two nodes, configure hosted engine on top of it (it'll automatically add that host to the hosted engine), then follow the docs to add another host. It'll leave the engine running as a VM, which also manages the hosts it's running on. If the engine dies for whatever reason (host goes down, you kill it by hand), it'll start itself back up, so you should ideally only need to touch servers when you want to update them. Once there's a hosted engine running on at least 2 hosts, you can add any new hosts you may eventually acquire to the hosted engine cluster, or add them as regular hosts from the web UI. The next version is supposed to make managing the hosted engine from the engine easier, but I haven't looked at that yet. If you're relatively unfamiliar with Linux, you're in a bad spot here. Zero VGS posted:3) With each of the servers having a single 1TB flash drive at the moment, I'd want to make an equal sized gluster partition/brick on each drive, and tell Gluster to do a "distributed replicated volume" right? Then just start spinning up VMs on that volume and I'm good to go? You'll want to create a relatively small brick to use for the hosted engine (it doesn't need much), then add another brick of whatever size you want for VM storage from the engine itself once it's installed/running.
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Apr 10, 2015 21:56
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Woo, you're awesome! Guess I've got a lot of reading ahead of me. By remove Gnome, do you mean there's a better GUI for what I'm doing? I was using it for things like copying and pasting commands from a Firefox window and I was going to install Teamviewer or something so I can keep configuring things from home. I really can't parse the CLI stuff, I can see how GUI in Linux would be viewed as a crutch but I always take ten times longer to type commands and I need the visual feedback to make up for my toasted short term memory.
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Apr 10, 2015 22:44
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This does not sound like it will end well.
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Apr 11, 2015 00:56
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Zero VGS posted:Woo, you're awesome! Guess I've got a lot of reading ahead of me. Remote in. ssh is enabled by default. Use putty to connect from Windows middle-click pastes into putty. Use ssh for every thing. You can have a GUI and Firefox on your workstation, then paste into the ssh session from there
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Apr 11, 2015 01:06
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Oh cool, didn't know I could putty into Linux like it was a switch.
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Apr 11, 2015 01:32
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Zero VGS posted:Oh cool, didn't know I could putty into Linux like it was a switch.
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Apr 11, 2015 03:11
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adorai posted:This has to be a troll. I seriously can't stop laughing. For some reason his username makes me think he said some other retarded poo poo in a thread a long time ago, but hell if I can remember what it was.
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Apr 11, 2015 03:16
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Internet Explorer posted:I seriously can't stop laughing. IIRC, he's in a role with a senior title with relatively little experience overseeing multiple badly designed sites on a shoestring budget that multiple goons told him to flee but he stayed because a raise or something. But all of us started somewhere.
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Apr 11, 2015 03:27
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evol262 posted:But all of us started somewhere. (It was mostly accurate.)
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Apr 11, 2015 03:39
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evol262 posted:IIRC, he's in a role with a senior title with relatively little experience overseeing multiple badly designed sites on a shoestring budget that multiple goons told him to flee but he stayed because a raise or something. Sure, we've all been in a little over our heads. That's how you learn. But I'm not so sure relatively difficult open source virtualization software on Ebayed hardware with no warranty is a good place to start, especially if you didn't know you could SSH into a Linux box.
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Apr 11, 2015 04:13
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Internet Explorer posted:I seriously can't stop laughing. I believe he told someone they should run dhcp on their network gear and not use windows DHCP server because some Network guy told him that was a good idea.
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Apr 11, 2015 04:37
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NippleFloss posted:I believe he told someone they should run dhcp on their network gear and not use windows DHCP server because some Network guy told him that was a good idea.
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Apr 11, 2015 05:03
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NippleFloss posted:I believe he told someone they should run dhcp on their network gear and not use windows DHCP server because some Network guy told him that was a good idea. *reboots DHCP server every week for critical patches, hands out 8 day leases* 99% of Windows admins are incompetent, and each DHCP lease technically requires a CAL. That said, whether you should go for windows/router/switch whatever DHCP always depends on the environment and the requirements. theperminator fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Apr 11, 2015 |
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Apr 11, 2015 05:09
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theperminator posted:99% of Windows admins are incompetent, and each DHCP lease technically requires a CAL.
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Apr 11, 2015 05:24
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Internet Explorer posted:Sure, we've all been in a little over our heads. That's how you learn. But I'm not so sure relatively difficult open source virtualization software on Ebayed hardware with no warranty is a good place to start, especially if you didn't know you could SSH into a Linux box. Plain KVM is relatively difficult (if you want sane migrations and management). Openstack is difficult. Eucalyptus is difficult. Ganeti can be difficult. oVirt is about as hard as VMware or XenServer for basic stuff, harder for some advanced stuff, and easier for some. ovirt is upstream for rhev, and about 6 months ahead of it in features and development, but otherwise it's the same. RHEV doesn't have a ton of marketshare (growing at an ok pace, but still a tiny player even compared to hyper-v), but you probably wouldn't describe it as "relatively difficult open source virtualization". The RHEV docs can be used verbatim for ovirt. There's obviously more blogs and " tutorials" for VMware, but a user/admin presented with the official docs and no other exposure wouldn't find one significantly harder than another, and most VMware admins would have a cluster up with vms running in less than an hour. Ease of use is a primary goal of the project. But ebayed hardware with no warranty and Linux ignorance are meh. Underspecced, power sucking, last generation (or worse) hardware from eBay isn't a great place to start. But it's all some businesses can do, and better than what some who can afford better actually do. Whether it'll live up to expectations is a different question. And yeah, not knowing you can ssh into Linux means you don't know a lot about Linux. But you don't need to. There's clear docs for getting ovirt running which require 3 commands on a clean install of centos and a wizard which asks you non-linux questions like "what kind of storage and what's the path to it" and "do you already have a database or do you want to provide a password and we'll configure postgres". He got the engine running fine, and even though I recommended scrapping that and using a hosted engine, the engine itself can manage all real/finicky aspects of Linux that you'd need to (bonding, vlans, storage, multipathing, migration of VMs, VM balancing policy, memory overcommit, etc). We ship an appliance that's very similar to esxi which requires zero Linux knowledge. It's a virtualization product, not a Linux product. Not knowing a lot about Linux is fine. But even though my advice to him was also to forget about the fact that his title is currently senior systems engineer or whatever and go for a mid-range admin job where he can learn, he didn't, and that's that. SH/SC isn't a hugbox, but the virt thread probably isn't the best place for ragging on someone about lack of knowledge (unless they're hubristic), especially when it's a one item thing like " you can ssh in and do that", since it doesn't require editing config files or anything more major than "how do I copy and paste commands here".
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Apr 11, 2015 05:52
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Heh, I thought I might have gotten away clean that time, I kinda get hammered every time I ask a question.adorai posted:This has to be a troll. Not a troll, I've just been exclusively administrating Windows for the last decade across three jobs. My *nix experience has been limited to cracking WEP passwords with a Backtrack Live CD and rooting Android phones. evol262 posted:IIRC, he's in a role with a senior title with relatively little experience overseeing multiple badly designed sites on a shoestring budget that multiple goons told him to flee but he stayed because a raise or something. I did flee, I made the new and old jobs bid for me and went from $50k/yr to $80k/yr. I've been at the new place for half a year but the previous ten years have all been on a shoestring budget and old habits die hard I guess. At least the CFO loves my cheapskate antics. I should state again that the servers I'm building aren't going to cost us any real productivity if they blow up, I'm just pretending to chase 9s for the learning experience. Who builds poo poo to break? NippleFloss posted:I believe he told someone they should run dhcp on their network gear and not use windows DHCP server because some Network guy told him that was a good idea. I know my opinion isn't the popular one and I don't want to necro this debate again, but I've never seen Windows servers never manage the sheer uptime of running DHCP on say, Cisco switches. Plus you do need to get CALs when you serve off Windows. I do see the merits of both sides, I just sleep better with DHCP on something embedded. For the record, at this place I moved DHCP from a Win2003 Celeron onto to a pair of active-active Peplink Balance routers that are also bonding our three ISPs. adorai posted:While I do believe that is an accurate statement, I also recall reading somewhere that Microsoft Licensing and Audit clarified that they weren't interested in dinging you for not having a CAL for your printer to get an address from DHCP. It should be codified as such, but I am very confident that DHCP is not going to be my licensing downfall when I pay microsoft hundreds of thousands of dollars per year already. It should be codified, but it won't be. Microsoft's lawyers, like everyone else's, love leaving in all those "gotchas". It's all for people like me who take the food out of their mouths by buying used Proliants and Catalysts from eBay. Kind of the way the games industry tries every trick in the book to discourage second-hand game sales. Microsoft as a company acts a bit entitled, like because I support 300 users, our paycheck and commitments to them necessarily have to keep scaling exponentially. They send salespeople to feel me out all the time and I comb their EULAs to stay out of their licensing clutches. I pay them the $20/mo per user for O365, that's all we need and that's all they're going to get out of me. Especially since it is buggy as gently caress and their support is garbage. Why would I let myself get any deeper into that? That's why I'm psyched to be learning how to build these redundant-everything private-cloud servers, I spent a week learning Azure and combing through RHEV documentation isn't nearly as painful as technet blogs. evol262 posted:But even though my advice to him was also to forget about the fact that his title is currently senior systems engineer or whatever and go for a mid-range admin job where he can learn, he didn't, and that's that. You're a cool, helpful and pragmatic goon. I really appreciate it. I get that it's fun to dogpile too, I steel myself for that when I post. I ask about the things I'm most clueless about so it sounds worse than it is. I've seen people a lot more senior and by-the-book become complacent and allow huge disasters into the production environment, and yeah it'd be hubristic to assume it can't happen to me. That's why I suck it up and come in here and get my rear end kicked until I figure things out. Anyhoo, no time to play the mid-range admin job. Just have to kick rear end and stack bills so I can change careers or retire without needing this as a day job.
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Apr 11, 2015 06:52
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NippleFloss posted:This does not sound like it will end well. quote:You can just install centos, add the ovirt repos, install engine-setup, and go. Everything else can be done from a web ui that's point and click. Gluster is a check box. Adding bricks is a wizard A checkbox labeled catastrophic data loss ? Recommending gluster to someone with limited linux experience is asking for a disaster.
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Apr 11, 2015 12:14
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jre posted:A checkbox labeled catastrophic data loss ? Recommending gluster to someone with limited linux experience is asking for a disaster. On the bright side, the deployment homogeneity of Gluster means it's a lot harder to gently caress up than, say, a clueless Ceph deployment with MON+OSD on the same node and a single MDS.
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Apr 11, 2015 18:35
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jre posted:A checkbox labeled catastrophic data loss ? Recommending gluster to someone with limited linux experience is asking for a disaster. Find a better solution for his use case. drbd with corosync+pacemaker in front of a cluster IP sharing NFS? Worse. drbd with and setting up iSCSI initiators on both hosts as ghetto multipathing? Worse. Ceph? Even more complex. CSVs? Not hyper-v. vSAN? No budget. Snarky comments like this which don't add anything to the discussion are a little useless. And we're slowly converging. Like basically everything else oVirt, it doesn't need a ton of Linux experience, because everything should be managed from a web UI.
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Apr 11, 2015 18:51
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evol262 posted:Find a better solution for his use case. Abandon the incredibly unwise idea and try to get a budget for something that's less of a mess ? Giving someone detailed instructions of how to shoot themselves in both feet isn't necessarily being helpful. quote:Snarky comments like this which don't add anything to the discussion are a little useless. And we're slowly converging. Like basically everything else oVirt, it doesn't need a ton of Linux experience, because everything should be managed from a web UI. The other problem is that for gluster to not perform like utter shite you need to put quite a bit of thought into configuring the disk sub system the bricks are on, setting up the networking properly so the cluster traffic is isolated. None of these are done by oVirt from your slides quote:In Progress: User Experience The gluster mailing list is full of posts from people who have just installed oVirt and then can't figure out why it is slow, or they ran an update borked the vol file because of new features. jre fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Apr 11, 2015 |
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Apr 11, 2015 19:02
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Zero VGS posted:words And FWIW, I think Gluster and finding/setting up a monitoring solution is something I think would be up your alley if you're so inclined to learn.
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Apr 11, 2015 19:38
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I do not think that Zero is dumb but I do think that putting your name on a project like this when you don't even have general experience with virtualization and no hope of troubleshooting issues is a good way to get fired when things go sideways and you get the blame because you're a "senior" engineer and shouldn't have people on a web forum doing your job. Sometimes the correct answer when asked to do something difficult with no money is "you can't do that, either find the money or admit that it's not that important and lower the requirements." This would be a really interesting project for a lab or development environment but is a disaster waiting to happen in a production environment with uptime requirements and something like 600 interacting users.
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Apr 11, 2015 20:13
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jre posted:Abandon the incredibly unwise idea and try to get a budget for something that's less of a mess ? (Agreed that it's a bad idea for anything important.) Vulture Culture fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Apr 11, 2015 |
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Apr 11, 2015 20:49
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jre posted:Abandon the incredibly unwise idea and try to get a budget for something that's less of a mess ? jre posted:Until it breaks, which happens a lot because gluster is still undergoing rapid development and then without a support contract you are utterly hosed. Also, the "no support contract" also applies to vsan, csvs, any Linux solution, Xenserver, the ebayed hardware, and everything else. Gluster is a problem here, but any solution would have the same problem. See above about helping vs grognarding. jre posted:The other problem is that for gluster to not perform like utter shite you need to put quite a bit of thought into configuring the disk sub system the bricks are on, setting up the networking properly so the cluster traffic is isolated. None of these are done by oVirt For segmenting the traffic, this is why I asked if you've used it. It doesn't follow the same paradigm as VMware. You can flag VM networks and migration networks. Best practice for storage traffic is to rely on an exclusionary mask where non-vm, non-migration networks with addressing schemes that can reach the storage are used. Gluster will be the same. Hopefully we'll add real checkboxes for this stuff in the future, but I don't work on storage, so... The vast majority of customers are running 50+ hosts with ~200 guest networks, mostly on vlans, and storage segmentation happens organically. jre posted:The gluster mailing list is full of posts from people who have just installed oVirt and then can't figure out why it is slow, or they ran an update borked the vol file because of new features. And tweaking it can be hard. There are a lot of vol options which need to be set to make gluster reasonable for large files (like qcows), which the vdsm storage bits set. But yet again, it's least bad. Slow but working is better than "this is a bad idea!!1!!1!1", and it's something that Zero can fiddle with later. Agreed on all points, but as noted, this thread tried and failed to convince anyone of that. Misogynist posted:There's no good way to isolate the Gluster management traffic in 3.6, since the traffic runs over a single interface and it's just going to get muddled up with your replication traffic from the NFS gateway anyway (unless you use a separate gateway that only attaches to the public network). This was slated as a planned feature for 3.7, but I don't see anything on the development side suggesting it's been implemented. Better to bond your interfaces to maximize throughput, and QoS the management traffic if you have bandwidth contention. It's utterly irrelevant if you're using the FUSE clients or the native Gluster client since the client end is responsible for replication, but NFS seems like the obvious way to expose the store to VMware. Bonding is best. Pretty much like VMware, the more NICs to have to physically segment this stuff instead of worrying about software routing it over the right interface/etc is the ideal. The management traffic is extremely minor, fortunately. SPICE is pretty bandwidth efficient even if you're using the console.
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Apr 11, 2015 21:48
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Everyone calm down. The obvious solution is to eBay another node then just pirate VMware licenses for everything.
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Apr 11, 2015 22:01
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Zero VGS posted:I know my opinion isn't the popular one and I don't want to necro this debate again, but I've never seen Windows servers never manage the sheer uptime of running DHCP on say, Cisco switches. Plus you do need to get CALs when you serve off Windows. I do see the merits of both sides, I just sleep better with DHCP on something embedded. For the record, at this place I moved DHCP from a Win2003 Celeron onto to a pair of active-active Peplink Balance routers that are also bonding our three ISPs. loving lollers. "Windows DHCP doesn't work well *turns off server 2003 on a celeron*"
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Apr 11, 2015 22:28
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When the project inevitably explodes are you going to help him evol?
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Apr 11, 2015 22:39
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To be honest, I wish I had a job where I could do a project like this and run it in production, preferably without feeling I was putting my job on the line. Unfortunately, I do have uptime requirements that I need to uphold and I run all pets, so it's pretty much VMware and a pair of replicating SANs for me.
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Apr 11, 2015 23:25
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adorai posted:To be honest, I wish I had a job where I could do a project like this and run it in production, preferably without feeling I was putting my job on the line. Unfortunately, I do have uptime requirements that I need to uphold and I run all pets, so it's pretty much VMware and a pair of replicating SANs for me. I did this with VMware years ago (the same kind of janky HA, except multi-site), because we didn't want to hand control of our VMware environment over to the enterprise virt team. But I'd take a pair of replicating SANs every time. There are some pretty large RHEV environments in the world at major companies, but I can't name names. You should look up white papers. A RHEV VDI solution won at vmworld last year. Tab8715 posted:When the project inevitably explodes are you going to help him evol? I mean, I'll help anyone with anything, basically. I won't be your production support guy, and I'll refer a lot of gluster issues to their IRC or mailing list, but it's not nearly as fragile as some people are making it sound
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Apr 11, 2015 23:41
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Little off topic, but how many folks here support a Linux desktop environment?
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Apr 12, 2015 01:21
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Tab8715 posted:When the project inevitably explodes are you going to help him evol? I'm with evol on this one (and MC Fruit Stripe talked about this behavior among tech people recently too). Dude has given us his situation and requirements, and they aren't going to change. Even if you think they are dumb--which for the record, I do. Screaming "UR DOIN IT RONG" isn't going to help anything. Might as well give him the best path to "success" given his constraints.
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Apr 12, 2015 03:39
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Docjowles posted:I'm with evol on this one (and MC Fruit Stripe talked about this behavior among tech people recently too). Dude has given us his situation and requirements, and they aren't going to change. Even if you think they are dumb--which for the record, I do. Screaming "UR DOIN IT RONG" isn't going to help anything. Might as well give him the best path to "success" given his constraints. The thing is I don't think this is the best path to success. An honest conversation with his management about expectation versus cost is a better path than over-promising and failing to deliver. He is in a well and telling him how to dig better is not truly helpful advice even if it seems like it in the short term.
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Apr 12, 2015 03:53
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NippleFloss posted:The thing is I don't think this is the best path to success. An honest conversation with his management about expectation versus cost is a better path than over-promising and failing to deliver. He is in a well and telling him how to dig better is not truly helpful advice even if it seems like it in the short term. Do you think it's the best path within his constraints? I don't think "we have a budget of $10k (or whatever the budget was for those ebayed components) and X constraints, do the best you can" is being in a well. Those are just limitations most of us can push back against, and "get enough money to do it right" isn't always an option. And a 600+ user environment isn't happening, but Zero says it's his goal to chase 9s, not the businesses, making this even less of a goon in a well. He hasn't said what the business pushback will be if something breaks, but probably not entrapment.
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Apr 12, 2015 04:45
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evol262 posted:Do you think it's the best path within his constraints? Honestly the whole thing is weird. He originally stated that his requirements were 100% uptime and when told it was basically impossible with his budget he said "well obviously I don't really mean 100%, you guys just read that all wrong". Then he said he can't use VMware because his company is a competitor, but what competitor to VMware can't scrape together more than like 5k for infrastructure hardware to support a 600 person call center that is presumably pretty i important, otherwise why pay 600 people to man it? And then you go back to his previous job post where he basically jumped into a job that he was very under-qualified for because he wants to stack that paper and retire early or something and the whole thing paints this portrait of a really dysfunctional environment that he's treating as a playground to try whatever random idea pops up. I think a single hyper-v host running on hardware raid with frequent backups to a cheap nas would end up being more resilient because it would have a support contract backing it and would be more in line with his technical capabilities. And if management truly doesn't care about uptime then the lack of storage redundancy wouldn't be a show stopper.
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Apr 12, 2015 05:13
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