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HEY GAL posted:everything early 17th century england tries to do on the world stage is like this Don't you dare denigrate the British armed forces in the 17th century and their amazing ability to get bogged down on sandbanks and die of malaria in Holland!
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Nov 18, 2016 22:05
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Ensign Expendable posted:Kursk was the least surprising surprise attack in history What about Barbarossa? Also somewhere I read about German generals getting into the groupthink and saying "Kursk has to work, it just has to" and literally Hitler of all freakin' people going "I have grave doubts about this battle, because it is really obvious where we're going to strike."
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Nov 18, 2016 22:58
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Nebakenezzer posted:What about Barbarossa? Stalin literally told the guy who said they were about to be attacked to go gently caress himself, so I think at least at that kind of level it was pretty surprising.
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Nov 18, 2016 23:11
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Nebakenezzer posted:What about Barbarossa? Everyone knew where the Germans were going to strike, the real secret was when, and they blew that one too. The Soviets knew the start of the operation down to the hour and were able to fire an artillery barrage on the Germans just as they started advancing. As for Barbarossa, there were very obvious hints that it was going to happen, but Stalin refused to take action and provoke the Germans into attacking early.
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Nov 18, 2016 23:36
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Ensign Expendable posted:Stalin refused to take action and provoke the Germans into attacking early. Probably a good idea, in hindsight.
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Nov 18, 2016 23:54
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OwlFancier posted:Probably a good idea, in hindsight. No, it's actually pretty retarded.
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Nov 19, 2016 00:05
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Xerxes17 posted:No, it's actually pretty retarded. Surely if Germany attacks earlier they end up with more time to advance before mud and winter sets in? I thought the whole point was that they picked a dumb time to launch the attack?
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Nov 19, 2016 00:22
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OwlFancier posted:Surely if Germany attacks earlier they end up with more time to advance before mud and winter sets in? I thought the whole point was that they picked a dumb time to launch the attack? At least then he'd be attacking a force which is already mobilising, rather than spending weeks in total chaos. You're going to have to mobilise at some point anyway, after all; why let the other guy make you do that when he's already underway? EDIT: Like, a common justbarbarossathing is that tanks are going off to fight on fumes and artillery isn't firing because it's literally got no ammo. At this point you're crash-rushing supplies off to these dudes, except whoops all those guys are now ten kilometers behind the front line. If you mobilise before they attack, you have some of this poo poo in place, even if it provokes a response within days. Your tanks might actually get somewhere and have shells when they do. Your artillery can actually support dudes. Hell, you get to have some basic idea of a plan, rather than getting half your airforce destroyed on the ground because the rapid advance has severed communication lines and nobody's sure exactly what the point they were meant to take off to intercept was, but it was probably a bit before all their planes blew up. Hell, on top of that the other guy is also not ready now. Even if he's 90% ready instead of 100%, that's something. spectralent fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Nov 19, 2016 |
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Nov 19, 2016 00:24
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OwlFancier posted:Surely if Germany attacks earlier they end up with more time to advance before mud and winter sets in? I thought the whole point was that they picked a dumb time to launch the attack? You've succumbed to the narrative that it's just the russian winter that stopped the German advance.... it's really not. If the Russians had mobilised sooner and if the German initial attack plans had been disrupted, they would not nearly have been successful.
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Nov 19, 2016 00:28
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Something something how Stalin's plan for countering the German buildup for Barbarossa was like Hillary's plan for dealing with Trump's media campaign: if I don't do anything in Michigan or Wisconsin or the Rust Belt then obviously he won't either because it'll be obvious that I'm gonna win those states because Trump isn't advertising there because I'm not  Sorry for bringing the election from Hell up again but I've been trying to think of what that particular plan of the Clinton campaign reminded me of and it was Stalin and Barbarossa, so it's your own fault and also if you wrap a towel around your head I won't be able to see you because you can't see me and I'm a Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal. Well What Now fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Nov 19, 2016 |
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Nov 19, 2016 00:32
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Fangz posted:You've succumbed to the narrative that it's just the russian winter that stopped the German advance.... it's really not. If the Russians had mobilised sooner and if the German initial attack plans had been disrupted, they would not nearly have been successful. I was under the impression that the Army didn't really have the ability to face the Germans head on at the start and that the winter combined with an awful lot of scorched earth and forced overextension was what weakened them enough to allow the Soviets to form an effective counter and produce more and better equipment. Stalling the advance earlier would have been harder due to the Germans having better supply and there not being massive cities for them to spend ages trying to besiege. Not so much "the winter won it" but more defence in absurdly extreme depth, which is a valid strategy when you're fighting in Russia and you can give absurd amounts of ground to gain time and pick at your enemy's logistics. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Nov 19, 2016 |
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Nov 19, 2016 00:36
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The German advance relied on the difference between loss and catastrophe.
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Nov 19, 2016 00:38
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OwlFancier posted:I was under the impression that the Army didn't really have the ability to face the Germans head on at the start and that the winter combined with an awful lot of scorched earth and forced overextension was what weakened them enough to allow the Soviets to form an effective counter and produce more and better equipment. Stalling the advance earlier would have been harder due to the Germans having better supply and there not being massive cities for them to spend ages trying to besiege. Defence in depth is generally more effective if you don't have panzers literally driving through your lines without resistance because everyone's too busy trying to organise to realise you're here already.
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Nov 19, 2016 00:39
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Well certainly better organization and equipment and a better plan for dealing with the attack would be advisable yes, it's just the trying to goad them into attacking early that seems like it wouldn't necessarily be that helpful, not that anyone could have known that at the time of course given that you can't really plan on having a really bad winter. Good in theory possibly less good if you can predict the future, I guess?
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Nov 19, 2016 00:41
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Preparing to defend from someone whom you know is about to attack you isn't exactly goading them. And if the Reich attacks before they're fully prepared, that's a net gain for the USSR. Sometimes, the best answer is: Yes, Stalin really did gently caress up on an unbelievable scale. He thought he knew how Hitler thinks. He was wrong.
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Nov 19, 2016 00:56
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re: the 88, the calibre predates Dritte Reich so it's certainly just a koinkidink. The Ordnance 25 pounder is also 88 millimetres (or at least it rounds up to that), that's much more suspect because it entered service when Hitler was more than an Austrian schoolboy. But I hardly think that white supremacists among the British empire would have needed the use of secret codes... re: Stalin, how much of a difference would it have made if after the last partition of Poland Soviets would have kept the Stallin' line, using the new areas as a buffer zone? Nenonen fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Nov 19, 2016 |
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Nov 19, 2016 01:22
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Fortunately, in the thirties Stalin had massively misunderstood the actual capacity of German war industry and in response overbuilt to the extent that the Soviet Union survived his massively misunderstanding German intentions in the forties.
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Nov 19, 2016 01:31
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Ensign Expendable posted:Everyone knew where the Germans were going to strike, the real secret was when, and they blew that one too. The Soviets knew the start of the operation down to the hour and were able to fire an artillery barrage on the Germans just as they started advancing. So that Russian show about the airfield with the big tittied officer chick and her hot dog bf, when was that supposed to be? Did it have a historical framework or did they just Bullshit it. It had to be post Barbarossa but the finale felt like it was Barbarossa in the flesh.
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Nov 19, 2016 02:44
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DiHK posted:So that Russian show about the airfield with the big tittied officer chick and her hot dog bf, when was that supposed to be? Did it have a historical framework or did they just Bullshit it. It had to be post Barbarossa but the finale felt like it was Barbarossa in the flesh. I don't know about everybody else here but for me this post requires a little explaining
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Nov 19, 2016 03:10
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Ensign Expendable posted:Everyone knew where the Germans were going to strike, the real secret was when, and they blew that one too. The Soviets knew the start of the operation down to the hour and were able to fire an artillery barrage on the Germans just as they started advancing. My dad likes to tell me that the Soviets were watching the Germans economic situation regarding wool with the idea that if the Germans suddenly started acquiring a large number of winter uniforms then that was clear evidence they would be attacking; and this partly contributes to the surprise since the Germans didn't do this. How true is this? e: Also silly Wehrboo is posting again, he claims that Hitler should have delayed the invasion by an entire year; wouldn't this had been catastrophically worse for the Germans? Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 03:29 on Nov 19, 2016 |
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Nov 19, 2016 03:27
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Raenir Salazar posted:e: Also silly Wehrboo is posting again, he claims that Hitler should have delayed the invasion by an entire year; wouldn't this had been catastrophically worse for the Germans? It would've been great for the German people, the war would've ended two years earlier. The Nazis/government, maybe not so much.
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Nov 19, 2016 03:44
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Christie M.1931 Queue: Type 95, T-70, Dicker Max, T-62, Medium Mk.II, Light Tank M2 Available for request:  T2E1 Light Tank M3A1 Combat Car T4 Combat Car M1  Medium Tank Mk.II Medium Tank Mk.III A1E1 Independent Infantry Tank Mk.I NEW  LTP T-37 with ShKAS ZIK-20 T-12 and T-24 T-55 HTZ-16 Wartime modifications of the T-37 and T-38 SG-122 76 mm gun mod of the Matilda Tank destroyers on the T-30 and T-40 chassis NEW  L-10 and L-30 Strv m/40  TK-3/TKS Trials of the TKS and C2P in the USSR 37 mm anti-tank gun  SR tanks  Renault NC Renault D1 Renault R35 Renault D2 Renault R40 Char B  PzI Ausf. B PzI Ausf. C PzII Ausf. a though b PzIII Ausf. A PzIII Ausf. B through D PzIV Ausf. A through C PzIV Ausf. D through E Ensign Expendable fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Nov 19, 2016 |
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Nov 19, 2016 04:07
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Raenir Salazar posted:My dad likes to tell me that the Soviets were watching the Germans economic situation regarding wool with the idea that if the Germans suddenly started acquiring a large number of winter uniforms then that was clear evidence they would be attacking; and this partly contributes to the surprise since the Germans didn't do this. How true is this? Stalin wasn't swayed by German defectors and informants telling him in no uncertain terms that there was going to be an invasion, I doubt wool would have had an effect. As for delaying the invasion, it would have proved a disaster. The Red Army was at its weakest point in the summer of 1941, suffering from a shortage of nearly every imaginable kind. An extra year to fix these issues would have been disastrous for the Germans.
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Nov 19, 2016 04:10
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Raenir Salazar posted:My dad likes to tell me that the Soviets were watching the Germans economic situation regarding wool with the idea that if the Germans suddenly started acquiring a large number of winter uniforms then that was clear evidence they would be attacking; and this partly contributes to the surprise since the Germans didn't do this. How true is this? Poster my dad is dead wrong as usual. The issue was logistics, not the lack of winter clothing. Winter is a thing that occurs all across Europe every year.
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Nov 19, 2016 04:13
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Nenonen posted:Poster my dad is dead wrong as usual. The issue was logistics, not the lack of winter clothing. Winter is a thing that occurs all across Europe every year. To be specific, its usually the argument that it was the "nasty Russian winter" that saved the Soviets and that this was somehow Hitler's fault. Did the Germans deliberately choose not to supply the forces invading the Soviet Union with winter uniforms? Was it actually the case that they couldn't?
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Nov 19, 2016 04:21
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Raenir Salazar posted:To be specific, its usually the argument that it was the "nasty Russian winter" that saved the Soviets and that this was somehow Hitler's fault. Did the Germans deliberately choose not to supply the forces invading the Soviet Union with winter uniforms? Was it actually the case that they couldn't? I am away from my computer and can't post Nazis.txt where they not only refused to send winter clothing because it's defeatist but straight up murdered a factory of Jews who were making winter clothing for the troops
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Nov 19, 2016 04:40
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Supply channels were limited, they were already struggling with providing fuel for the Panzers, shells for the artillery and food for the troops. Now suddenly you need to deliver a season-proper garderobe for millions of men when you expected the whole thing to be over in a couple of months? Welp, enjoy the frostbites.
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Nov 19, 2016 04:48
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No but guys, if we send fuel instead of clothes, the war will be over before the winter starts! It's a foolproof plan!
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Nov 19, 2016 05:04
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Ensign Expendable posted:No but guys, if we send fuel instead of clothes, the war will be over before the winter starts! It's a foolproof plan! Worked for the Winter War!
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Nov 19, 2016 05:06
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I decided to just go ahead and post Disinterested's and Bobo-Fett's posts (Don't worry I credited you guys), and by the way apparently David Stahel is a liberal? Because whelp! quote:Raenir, I reject everything you say as untrue and proof of not only being ignorant, but of having unsound judgment. You pretend to quote from what you regard as historically "authoritative," but your sources are in fact unreliable and unsound. The authors whom you quote were just the kind of liberal scholar wannabes who try to make a name for themselves by seizing on any excuse to go against the established wisdom. It is sadly apparent that your teachers never taught you how to think critically and properly weigh evidence for yourself. You can only go by what someone else says, and you select only those who agree with you. You may claim you have refuted me a thousand times, and it will still not be true. I have given you sufficient evidence for you to see that your contention that the Germans never came close to winning WWII is absolutely stupid and contrary to what every really intelligent and informed person knows. (And historical sources do verify that advance units of the German army did reach the point where they could see the domes of the Kremlin.) You are a pitiable example of how irresponsible liberal teachers and authors can victimize students. I have tried to explain to you why what I said was reasonable and borne out by the real facts of history. But to you it is all just a matter of childish ego. You seem incapable of engaging in mature debate. It is all just a game to you*. You do not seem to care about what is real and true. That is what is wrong with all liberals. * Literally 24 hours ago posted: quote:I spent several years wargaming WWII, especially the Russian Campaign, so I know what I am talking about. Hrrm.
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Nov 19, 2016 05:28
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Ah yes war gaming. By that logic, I am better than Napoleon.
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Nov 19, 2016 05:35
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask / Tell > Ask Us About Military History Mk III: I spent several years wargaming
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Nov 19, 2016 05:48
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Oh look, they made it all about politics for some unidentifiable reason. Where is that beautiful dumpster fire of a shitpost from?
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Nov 19, 2016 05:53
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That's gotta be a joke account... no way that post is sincere... but moving away from that. I request US light tank m2!
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Nov 19, 2016 06:09
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FastestGunAlive posted:That's gotta be a joke account... no way that post is sincere... Nope, he's been like this since 2001, and even published a book. Crazycryodude posted:Oh look, they made it all about politics for some unidentifiable reason. Where is that beautiful dumpster fire of a shitpost from? Orson Scott Card's forums. He's like this about evolution as well.
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Nov 19, 2016 06:17
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Show him a copy of Korsun Pocket sometime And to actually engages the Germans did come close to Moscow but that would end up with Stalingrad with subways and theres no guarantee that would even end the war
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Nov 19, 2016 06:20
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Wait is that Orson Scott Card himself, or some rando on the forums?
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Nov 19, 2016 06:22
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I play ASL, now let me tell you all about how I have THE encyclopaedic knowledge of a little-known operation called Festung Budapest Furthermore,
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Nov 19, 2016 06:27
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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask / Tell > Ask Us About Military History Mk III: Every Historian Is Wrong Ever, Let Me Tell You Why...
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Nov 19, 2016 06:28
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Crazycryodude posted:Wait is that Orson Scott Card himself, or some rando on the forums? Just a 70 year old rando. Orson Scott Card at least seems to understand history from when I've spoken to him.
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Nov 19, 2016 06:30
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