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FFT 1.3 is made for the kind of broke brained people who've been playing FFT since it came out and basically never stopped. And among THAT subset of broke brained people, there are those who mastered the idiosyncrasies and quirks of the 1.3 AI and mechanics to the point where it isn't enough anymore. Did you ever think the Dorter fight was hard? Well, how about Dorter, with 1.3 rules, against Engineers, a Princess and a Dark Knight?
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Dec 29, 2016 21:32
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1.3 is not particularly difficult if you are familiar with the nuts and bolts of the fft combat system, especially the edge cases where it starts to break down and you can make literal free turns appear out of nowhere with careful timing of revives that doesn't actually make it fun though
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Dec 29, 2016 21:32
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if there's one thing fft hardtype mods--including 1.3--do right, it fixes the bit where regular fft enemies are like 99% tier 2 jobs with 500 jp worth of random skills even in chapter 4. oh nooooo another archer with yin-yang magic, 31 faith, and charge +8, whatever shall i do
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Dec 29, 2016 21:35
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For all its glory, FFT is far from perfect and the first thing a FFT patch can fix, easily at that, is enemy classes and skillsets. Super accessible in FFTPatcher, unlike things like the effect of Bravery or the formula for fist damage.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:38
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:FFT 1.3 is made for the kind of broke brained people who've been playing FFT since it came out and basically never stopped. And among THAT subset of broke brained people, there are those who mastered the idiosyncrasies and quirks of the 1.3 AI and mechanics to the point where it isn't enough anymore. Did you ever think the Dorter fight was hard? Well, how about Dorter, with 1.3 rules, against Engineers, a Princess and a Dark Knight? Any tepid defense I have previously seemed to offer is retracted.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:41
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DACK FAYDEN posted:That just sounds like loving garbage. What the hell? Why does anyone play this poo poo? If sandbagging with revives while your team slowly picks apart the enemy using your encyclopedic knowledge of game mechanics isn't fun, idk what to tell you 
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Dec 29, 2016 21:45
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I should note that the link I posted is from 1.3 Unyielding. It's a hard mode patch of 1.3 (yes, it's a hard mode patch of a hard mode patch) and as far as I know it never got off the ground. Still, someone played through 1.3 enough that it became too easy and their thought process, for at least a fleeting moment, was to start work on a hard mode patch of a hard mode patch before, you know, moving on.
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Dec 29, 2016 21:47
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so yeah, fft is a great game, but when you pull back the curtain you can't exactly unlearn the combat mechanics after. hell, i just installed wotl on my phone because of the holiday sale, after literal years of not having played fft, and found myself counting ct ticks almost immediately. once you have that knowledge, you really do need to be playing a hardtype patch for combat to be interesting at all, in the slightest. playing hardtype patches teach you more about the system. the more you know about the system, the harder the patch needs to be, until you're in the back alley of an arby's at 2 am taking hits off the 1.3 unyielding crack pipe. it's an understandable cycle the actual, well-adjusted human being response is to go and play a different game, maybe one where you don't have the 300 page battle mechanics guide committed to memory, but for whatever reason some people just can't let go
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Dec 29, 2016 21:52
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So I can get a handle on what people are saying about 1.3, how would people compare what 1.3 is doing to FFT to what Long War is doing for Xcom? To be honest, some of these statements seem similar to statements I see about Long War. Or is it going down an entirely different sort of rabbit hole?
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Dec 29, 2016 22:34
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I also seem to remember enjoying FFT: Kind Of (KO), also available on ffhacktics.com. A version of it is available for both PSX and PSP versions of the game. Edit: But yeah, as someone who completed almost every type of SCC (straight character challenge, where you play through the whole game using a team with only a single skillset and abilities, e.g. Thief), I still found 1.3 an unfun slog. The "easytype" Content version is slightly better but not by all that much. Too bad, since it's got some cool additions.
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Dec 29, 2016 22:50
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I am on Hour 2 of trying to steal the flute from Hilgigars, with fast forward. Why do I do this to myself. Why.
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Dec 30, 2016 04:26
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Cape Cod Crab Chip posted:I am on Hour 2 of trying to steal the flute from Hilgigars, with fast forward. Why do I do this to myself. Why. No, seriously, why. Its a moderate power boost for a single character in a game with four playable members and fairly generous difficulty curve. Just move on and buy the one you can get in a couple of hours. Stealing constantly in FFIX was terrible because while the reward was pretty good and absolutely why I facerolled the end game, it is so terribly dull and drawn out to get there it just isn't worth it.
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Dec 30, 2016 04:31
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Once you realize stealing was the only reason why bosses were remotely challenging, you just mash face with Steiner's magic sword+Vivi because gear doesn't really matter in ff9.
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Dec 30, 2016 04:32
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Coughing Hobo posted:As an avowed lover of FFT and someone that has tried pretty much every mod out there to squeeze life out of the game, 1.3 is absolute garbage that even someone like me who knows all of the tricks despises. Is complete the mod that, among other things, gave enemies proper skill sets without actually trying to otherwise tweak the game or its ai to make the game 'harder' or was that LFT? Because that's really all FFT needs in the majority of cases to add a healthy amount of challenge to the game for most people. Instead of a black mage with fire, ice 3, and poison they'd have fire/ice/lit 1-2 and maybe a status spell or two. Also makes it more worthwhile to crystallize enemies due to more skills to pick from when grabbing the crystal.
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Dec 30, 2016 04:43
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ImpAtom posted:It really isn't unless you are an extreme minmaxer who only wants to play that way. It doesn't require so much "minmax" as it does "play good", which the original FFT made no effort to make you do.
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Dec 30, 2016 05:17
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gigglefeimer posted:It doesn't require so much "minmax" as it does "play good", which the original FFT made no effort to make you do. It absolutely does make you play good in default FFT because there are multiple boss encounters in FFT, much less story fights, that will eat you alive unless you know what you are doing and are all but unwinnable going in blind.
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Dec 30, 2016 05:19
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gigglefeimer posted:It doesn't require so much "minmax" as it does "play good", which the original FFT made no effort to make you do. No, it absolutely requires optimal mix-maxing and a strong understanding of the game's tricks on top of that. If it just required you to have a better grasp of positioning and mechanics it would be a much better mod.
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Dec 30, 2016 05:19
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I am a Perfect Sphere Master. Kill me.
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Dec 30, 2016 05:23
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Mordiceius posted:I am a Perfect Sphere Master. Fool, infant, do you realize what you've done?
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Dec 30, 2016 05:29
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Barudak posted:It absolutely does make you play good in default FFT because there are multiple boss encounters in FFT, much less story fights, that will eat you alive unless you know what you are doing and are all but unwinnable going in blind. The bar is set really low in the original FFT ImpAtom posted:No, it absolutely requires optimal mix-maxing and a strong understanding of the game's tricks on top of that. If it just required you to have a better grasp of positioning and mechanics it would be a much better mod. "Optimal min-maxing" like, don't immediately spend all your JP on abilities you'll never use, and "strong understanding of the game's tricks" like, understanding how clock ticks work, or planning multiple turns ahead in battles instead of just rushing face first into a damage race.
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Dec 30, 2016 05:33
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gigglefeimer posted:The bar is set really low in the original FFT Since 1.3 doesn't require optimal min-maxing could you please point me to a game that does?
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Dec 30, 2016 05:35
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Andrast posted:Since 1.3 doesn't require optimal min-maxing could you please point me to a game that does? I don't know of any. Usually I create challenge runs of games to make min-maxing necessary.
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Dec 30, 2016 05:38
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gigglefeimer posted:"Optimal min-maxing" like, don't immediately spend all your JP on abilities you'll never use, and "strong understanding of the game's tricks" like, understanding how clock ticks work, or planning multiple turns ahead in battles instead of just rushing face first into a damage race. Again, it would be a much better mod if that were the case. It isn't. It's a poorly designed mod because, like a lot of mods, it's created by people who've spent so much time with the game they lose a sense of perspective on what is normal for someone playing the game. It is an ongoing problem with a lot of hard-type mods and it's easy to understand why, especially because the people you can get to playtest (if anyone) will tend to be part of the same community and thus privy to the same blindspots. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 05:39
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ImpAtom posted:Again, it would be a much better mod if that were the case. It isn't. Okay.
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Dec 30, 2016 05:40
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gigglefeimer posted:The bar is set really low in the original FFT Like, I'm clearly not an expert on FFT since its my least favorite FF game by a considerable margin, but the literal decades of people desperate for help with Riovanes Castle sort of puts that idea to a lie even ignoring other fun things the game does like trap Ramza in a one on one fight where he can get critted and die before you can flip the switch or where the ally AI can just straight up go on a suicide run and lose you a mission before you can act.
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Dec 30, 2016 05:44
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Maybe the esoteric hard mode mod is designed for people who want an esoteric hard mode mod, and thus it would not be objectively superior if they did things that a different audience wanted.
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Dec 30, 2016 05:45
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Matsuno did the same poo poo in Tactics Ogre, especially in I think Law where you have solo and beat your rival who has absurd stats.
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Dec 30, 2016 05:47
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gigglefeimer posted:Okay. I'm not really sure the point you're trying to make but I've played the mod. If you go into it without planning to min-max your builds and without understanding how to abuse the combat mechanics in a variety of ways you're not going to have a very good time. (and frankly you probably won't anyway because it's a badly designed mod, but at least you'll be playing on the level the mod expects.) If you're planning out your character builds to never waste any JP while obtaining maximum power with minimal waste? That's generally referring to as a form of min-maxing. Countblanc posted:Maybe the esoteric hard mode mod is designed for people who want an esoteric hard mode mod, and thus it would not be objectively superior if they did things that a different audience wanted. It's possible for a mod to be targeting people who want hard modes and still be bad at it. Someone who creates a Mega Man mod where ever available surface is covered with spikes except for platforms replaced by ice physics platforms probably has created a very hard mod but except for people into pure masochism it isn't generally going to be appealing to people who want "Mega Man but harder." (and god knows there are MM romhacks like that.) Likewise FFT1.3 isn't good at providing a harder FFT experience, it's 'good' at providing a very very specific experience. And that's fine if that is what you want but makes it a poor recommendation for someone just looking for something that fixes FFT's crippling ease. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 05:51 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 05:48
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ImpAtom posted:Again, it would be a much better mod if that were the case. It isn't. It's a poorly designed mod because, like a lot of mods, it's created by people who've spent so much time with the game they lose a sense of perspective on what is normal for someone playing the game. It's a difficulty mod. It' not meant for people who have a bare-bones understanding of the game's mechanics, who also have no desire to learn them. Barudak posted:Like, I'm clearly not an expert on FFT since its my least favorite FF game by a considerable margin, but the literal decades of people desperate for help with Riovanes Castle sort of puts that idea to a lie even ignoring other fun things the game does like trap Ramza in a one on one fight where he can get critted and die before you can flip the switch or where the ally AI can just straight up go on a suicide run and lose you a mission before you can act. People have had trouble with each and every other FF game too.
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Dec 30, 2016 05:49
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gigglefeimer posted:It's a difficulty mod. It' not meant for people who have a bare-bones understanding of the game's mechanics, who also have no desire to learn them. Like, I'm not sure why you leap angrily to the mod's defense when you're basically saying the exact same things yourself at this point. The mod requires you to plan out and optimize your character's builds and have an above-average understanding of the gameplay mechanics. Which is exactly what I said before and I guess you objected to the specific way I said it?
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Dec 30, 2016 05:59
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gigglefeimer posted:People have had trouble with each and every other FF game too. Other FF games don't put you into an unwinnable state because you're not allowed to leave a certain place in the middle of two battles and you aren't the kind of person who makes backup saves all the time.
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Dec 30, 2016 06:00
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ImpAtom posted:I'm not really sure the point you're trying to make but I've played the mod. If you go into it without planning to min-max your builds and without understanding how to abuse the combat mechanics in a variety of ways you're not going to have a very good time. (and frankly you probably won't anyway because it's a badly designed mod, but at least you'll be playing on the level the mod expects.) My point is that your internet hyperbole is hilarious. There's a middle ground you can walk in 1.3 between throwing together whatever the hell you want like you do in vanilla, and anxiously micromanaging every number in excel spreadsheets like you're acting 1.3 requires you to do.
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Dec 30, 2016 06:01
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Alxprit posted:Other FF games don't put you into an unwinnable state because you're not allowed to leave a certain place in the middle of two battles and you aren't the kind of person who makes backup saves all the time. To be fair that's less difficulty and more lovely design. gigglefeimer posted:My point is that your internet hyperbole is hilarious. There's a middle ground you can walk in 1.3 between throwing together whatever the hell you want like you do in vanilla, and anxiously micromanaging every number in excel spreadsheets like you're acting 1.3 requires you to do. Likewise I can say a mod requires min-maxing without meaning "you are LITERALLY filling every number in an excel spreadsheet" but for some reason you inserted that hyperbole yourself because you got upset someone said something mildly critical of a mod you like.
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Dec 30, 2016 06:02
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fft isn't hard, but it is willfully obtuse, and 1.3 requires you to know things about the combat system that are not surfaced in the ui. because they are not particularly fun to interact with.
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Dec 30, 2016 06:10
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by the way, 1.3 isn't hard either. it requires you to know undocumented things about the game's action economy, but once you know how to sandbag it doesn't really throw any other curveballs at you.
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Dec 30, 2016 06:11
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ImpAtom posted:Likewise I can say a mod requires min-maxing without meaning "you are LITERALLY filling every number in an excel spreadsheet" but for some reason you inserted that hyperbole yourself because you got upset someone said something mildly critical of a mod you like. But you said extreme min-maxing. In italics. You really crossed the line there, bud.
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Dec 30, 2016 06:11
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gigglefeimer posted:But you said extreme min-maxing. In italics. You really crossed the line there, bud. I clearly meant it in the 90's way. You have to minmax while wearing a backwards baseball cap and riding a skateboard. 
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Dec 30, 2016 06:12
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Reiterpallasch posted:by the way, 1.3 isn't hard either. it requires you to know undocumented things about the game's action economy, but once you know how to sandbag it doesn't really throw any other curveballs at you. People say the "x isn't really hard" thing about loving anything. 1.3 is really difficult and requires in-depth knowledge about the systems on a level that barely anyone has, unless they are the kind of person who goes looking for bad difficulty mods in the first place. Andrast fucked around with this message at 06:23 on Dec 30, 2016 |
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Dec 30, 2016 06:17
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all games are pretty easy, all you have to do is trigger god mode on the ol' action replay
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Dec 30, 2016 06:19
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Andrast posted:People say the "x isn't really hard" thing about loving anything. 1.3 is really difficult and requires in-depth knowledge about the systems on a level that barely anyone does, unless they are the kind of person who goes looking for bad difficulty mods in the first place. you're confusing "not being fun" and "requiring undocumented information" with "being hard" you have as much time to make your move as you like in a srpg. the only way they can be hard is by overloading your ability to process the strategic situation--by presenting you with multiple different threats which you have to manage (fe: fates conquest), or objectives that you can fail (devil survivor), or incentivizing unnecessary risk (xcom's meld mechanic), or imperfect information that you have to understand (fog of war mechanics) or straight up a game state which is too big to fit in a human mind (big wwii-scale wargames). fft, vanilla or 1.3, does none of this. it presents you with enemy formations that are straight up horseshit unless you know the secret shibboleth to making the ai waste 80% of its turns, and then every encounter is very straightforward and easy to understand.
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Dec 30, 2016 06:25
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