capitalism.png: A Hydraulic Press of Misery

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CN CREW-VESSEL: Feb 1, 2024; 敌人磨刀我们也磨刀

Also, wheat wasn't the most important cereal crop for a long time, right? Compared to millet, barley, some others I forget?

e: globally, loving rice, maize, lmao. I mean, come on.

# ? May 19, 2024 19:22

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 20:33

Mandel Brotset: Jan 1, 2024

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

The best part of the dawn of everything is when they postulate that early modern Europeans were nasty greedy murderous brutes who couldn't even imagine freedom until Native Americans taught them the concept, all while somehow completely clowning on the idea of the noble savage

yeah that part did in fact own

# ? May 19, 2024 19:31

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

I am so so sorry for the walls of text, but drat I love this book. Just this one last one

quote:

What we�re going to suggest is that American intellectuals � we are using the term �American� as it was used at the time, to refer to indigenous inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere; and �intellectual� to refer to anyone in the habit of arguing about abstract ideas � actually played a role in this conceptual revolution. It is very strange that this should be considered a particularly radical idea, but among mainstream intellectual historians today it is almost a heresy.

What makes this especially odd is that no one denies that many European explorers, missionaries, traders, settlers and others who sojourned on American shores spent years learning native languages and perfecting their skills in conversation with native speakers; just as indigenous Americans did the work of learning Spanish, English, Dutch or French. Neither, we think, would anyone who has ever learned a truly alien language deny that doing so takes a great deal of imaginative work, trying to grasp unfamiliar concepts. We also know that missionaries typically conducted long philosophical debates as part of their professional duties; many others, on both sides, argued with one another either out of simple curiosity, or because they had immediate practical reasons to understand the other�s point of view. Finally, no one would deny that travel literature, and missionary relations � which often contained summaries of, or even extracts from, these exchanges � were popular literary genres, avidly followed by educated Europeans. Any middle-class household in eighteenth-century Amsterdam or Grenoble would have been likely to have on its shelves at the very least a copy of the Jesuit Relations of New France (as France�s North American colonies were then known), and one or two accounts written by voyagers to faraway lands. Such books were appreciated largely because they contained surprising and unprecedented ideas.10

Historians are aware of all this. Yet the overwhelming majority still conclude that even when European authors explicitly say they are borrowing ideas, concepts and arguments from indigenous thinkers, one should not take them seriously. It�s all just supposed to be some kind of misunderstanding, fabrication, or at best a naive projection of pre-existing European ideas. American intellectuals, when they appear in European accounts, are assumed to be mere representatives of some Western archetype of the �noble savage� or sock-puppets, used as plausible alibis to an author who might otherwise get into trouble for presenting subversive ideas (deism, for example, or rational materialism, or unconventional views on marriage).11

Certainly, if one encounters an argument ascribed to a �savage� in a European text that even remotely resembles anything to be found in Cicero or Erasmus, one is automatically supposed to assume that no �savage� could possibly have really said it � or even that the conversation in question never really took place at all.12 If nothing else, this habit of thought is very convenient for students of Western literature, themselves trained in Cicero and Erasmus, who might otherwise be forced to actually try to learn something about what indigenous people thought about the world, and above all what they made of Europeans.

We intend to proceed in the opposite direction.

We will examine early missionary and travel accounts from New France � especially the Great Lakes region � since these were the accounts Rousseau himself was most familiar with, to get a sense of what its indigenous inhabitants did actually think of French society, and how they came to think of their own societies differently as a result. We will argue that indigenous Americans did indeed develop a very strong critical view of their invaders� institutions: a view which focused first on these institutions� lack of freedom, and only later, as they became more familiar with European social arrangements, on equality.

One of the reasons that missionary and travel literature became so popular in Europe was precisely because it exposed its readers to this kind of criticism, along with providing a sense of social possibility: the knowledge that familiar ways were not the only ways, since � as these books showed � there were clearly societies in existence that did things very differently. We will suggest that there is a reason why so many key Enlightenment thinkers insisted that their ideals of individual liberty and political equality were inspired by Native American sources and examples. Because it was true.

# ? May 19, 2024 19:35

NorgLyle: Sep 20, 2002; Do you think I posted to this forum because I value your companionship?

CN CREW-VESSEL posted:

Also, wheat wasn't the most important cereal crop for a long time, right? Compared to millet, barley, some others I forget?

e: globally, loving rice, maize, lmao. I mean, come on.

Maize is an even better example for the point that he is trying to make as modern corn cannot even reproduce at all without human cultivation. It grows and it is our job to make sure that it gets spread around and can keep growing.

# ? May 19, 2024 19:41

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

TDOE absolutely rocks, great read.

I also enjoyed Matt Christmas rant series on YouTube where he took it section by section. I didn't necessarily agree with much of his ramblings but it was a fun commentary - and I've now adopted his usage of "Grabgrow" so it's totally replaced "Graeber and Wengrow" in my mind

# ? May 19, 2024 19:43

Teriyaki Hairpiece: Dec 29, 2006; I'm nae the voice o' the darkened thistle, but th' darkened thistle cannae bear the sight o' our Bonnie Prince Bernie nae mair.

CN CREW-VESSEL posted:

Also, wheat wasn't the most important cereal crop for a long time, right? Compared to millet, barley, some others I forget?

e: globally, loving rice, maize, lmao. I mean, come on.

Maybe, just maybe, Harari is a moron, and so are the people who praise his works

# ? May 19, 2024 19:43

Biplane: Jul 18, 2005

Arivia posted:

you’d think so but they went woke when Moira joined the council of three hammers. it’s all about women’s rights now.

Nothing is sacred any more

# ? May 19, 2024 19:49

Orange Devil: Oct 1, 2010; Wullie's reign cannae smother the flames o' equality!

CN CREW-VESSEL posted:

Also, wheat wasn't the most important cereal crop for a long time, right? Compared to millet, barley, some others I forget?

e: globally, loving rice, maize, lmao. I mean, come on.

So many turnips.

# ? May 19, 2024 21:49

tokin opposition: Apr 8, 2021; I don't jailbreak the androids, I set them free.

WATCH MARS EXPRESS (2023)

the best crop is the potato, fight me (i'm not even ir*sh)

# ? May 19, 2024 23:32

BonHair: Apr 28, 2007

tokin opposition posted:

the best crop is the potato, fight me (i'm not even ir*sh)

Lentils would like a word with you.

# ? May 20, 2024 05:22

Away all Goats: Jul 5, 2005; Goose's rebellion

It's soybeans

# ? May 20, 2024 05:27

SniperWoreConverse: Mar 20, 2010; Gun Saliva

CN CREW-VESSEL posted:

Also, wheat wasn't the most important cereal crop for a long time, right? Compared to millet, barley, some others I forget?

e: globally, loving rice, maize, lmao. I mean, come on.

egyptians iirc had mainly barley and like emmer or something which is sort of like an ancestor to modern wheat but very much not the same thing because you basically had to pound it with huge pestles before even starting the process of getting the food part out

not to mention stuff like teff & sorghum.

i miss having my sickle lol. the hammer & sickle are legitimately the two most powerful tools ever conceived of by the human mind or wielded by the human hand

# ? May 20, 2024 05:45

Complications: Jun 19, 2014

SniperWoreConverse posted:

egyptians iirc had mainly barley and like emmer or something which is sort of like an ancestor to modern wheat but very much not the same thing because you basically had to pound it with huge pestles before even starting the process of getting the food part out

not to mention stuff like teff & sorghum.

i miss having my sickle lol. the hammer & sickle are legitimately the two most powerful tools ever conceived of by the human mind or wielded by the human hand

there is so much about the history of what we eat and the ridiculously specific steps needed to make it edible let alone tasty that I can only marvel at the cast iron stomachs and insane amounts of free time that our ancestors had to do random stuff to everything they could lay their hands on

# ? May 20, 2024 05:56

BonHair: Apr 28, 2007

SniperWoreConverse posted:

i miss having my sickle lol. the hammer & sickle are legitimately the two most powerful tools ever conceived of by the human mind or wielded by the human hand

Have you tried Power BI though, that's super powerful

# ? May 20, 2024 05:56

Second Hand Meat Mouth: Sep 12, 2001

Away all Goats posted:

It's soybeans

it's bugs

# ? May 20, 2024 06:17

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

SniperWoreConverse posted:

egyptians iirc had mainly barley and like emmer or something which is sort of like an ancestor to modern wheat but very much not the same thing because you basically had to pound it with huge pestles before even starting the process of getting the food part out

not to mention stuff like teff & sorghum.

i miss having my sickle lol. the hammer & sickle are legitimately the two most powerful tools ever conceived of by the human mind or wielded by the human hand

Spoken like a true person-who-has-never-had-a-scythe lmao smhd.

# ? May 20, 2024 06:34

Shame Boy: Mar 2, 2010

BonHair posted:

Have you tried Power BI though, that's super powerful

I will never get over Microsoft renaming that thing to Power Bisexual

# ? May 20, 2024 07:02

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Shame Boy posted:

I will never get over Microsoft renaming that thing to Power Bisexual

they went woke

# ? May 20, 2024 07:03

Milo and POTUS: Sep 3, 2017; I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?

3D Megadoodoo posted:

Spoken like a true person-who-has-never-had-a-scythe lmao smhd.

A scythe is just a sickle that's been leveled up

# ? May 20, 2024 09:38

Only Kindness: Oct 12, 2016

Yeah, a sickle counts as a mini-scythe. Ask Getafix.

# ? May 20, 2024 09:45

Failed Imagineer: Sep 22, 2018

3D Megadoodoo posted:

smhd.

Shaking My Ham Dead

# ? May 20, 2024 10:49

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

Milo and POTUS posted:

A scythe is just a sickle that's been leveled up

lmao are you going to make me repeat myself?

# ? May 20, 2024 10:52

CN CREW-VESSEL: Feb 1, 2024; 敌人磨刀我们也磨刀

Complications posted:

ridiculously specific steps needed to make it edible let alone tasty �insane amounts of free time

lol this is how tech guys end up buying hobby farms. Many such cases.

# ? May 20, 2024 13:05

SniperWoreConverse: Mar 20, 2010; Gun Saliva

the manufacturing of the scythe is v complicated compared to the sickle, it's got a complex multi axis curve situation going on. With the sickle you can just peen it with your hammer and a flat enough rock but i guess if you have to you can do that with the scythe if you're sure you're not gonna gently caress up

# ? May 20, 2024 13:05

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

SniperWoreConverse posted:

the manufacturing of the scythe is v complicated compared to the sickle, it's got a complex multi axis curve situation going on. With the sickle you can just peen it with your hammer and a flat enough rock but i guess if you have to you can do that with the scythe if you're sure you're not gonna gently caress up

Skill issue.

# ? May 20, 2024 13:17

BonHair: Apr 28, 2007

Complications posted:

there is so much about the history of what we eat and the ridiculously specific steps needed to make it edible let alone tasty that I can only marvel at the cast iron stomachs and insane amounts of free time that our ancestors had to do random stuff to everything they could lay their hands on

This may sound weird to modern people, but a lot of our ancestors were actually full time employed doing stuff to plants and animals to produce food.

# ? May 20, 2024 13:21

Biplane: Jul 18, 2005

BonHair posted:

This may sound weird to modern people, but a lot of our ancestors were actually full time employed doing stuff to plants and animals to produce food.

Tilling the soil???

# ? May 20, 2024 13:27

SniperWoreConverse: Mar 20, 2010; Gun Saliva

I heard in one of these threads you used to just be able to go to work based on a day. This would be well after most things had already been domesticated, but still

"an honest day's work, honest day's wage" you didn't have to get up at any specific time or anything, just show up for the "good enough"-level of daily work. this is still mind boggling to me

# ? May 20, 2024 13:30

SniperWoreConverse: Mar 20, 2010; Gun Saliva

Biplane posted:

Tilling the soil???

# ? May 20, 2024 13:30

3D Megadoodoo: Nov 25, 2010

SniperWoreConverse posted:

I heard in one of these threads you used to just be able to go to work based on a day. This would be well after most things had already been domesticated, but still

"an honest day's work, honest day's wage" you didn't have to get up at any specific time or anything, just show up for the "good enough"-level of daily work. this is still mind boggling to me

No it's just that they day is shorter (or gone) in Winter and longer in Summer.

# ? May 20, 2024 13:32

Biplane: Jul 18, 2005

SniperWoreConverse posted:

I heard in one of these threads you used to just be able to go to work based on a day. This would be well after most things had already been domesticated, but still

"an honest day's work, honest day's wage" you didn't have to get up at any specific time or anything, just show up for the "good enough"-level of daily work. this is still mind boggling to me

My dad used to go stack fish whenever he needed money in his wayward youth. He'd just go down to the docks whenever, someone would show him to a warehouse, and he'd spend the next 10 to 12 hours stacking crates of fish, and would get paid a more than decent days wage for his efforts. Total insanity.

# ? May 20, 2024 13:59

The Chairman: Jun 30, 2003; But you forget, mon ami, that there is evil everywhere under the sun

now you gotta get all your fish-stacking jobs through apps like Codstax and Fintowr and Tilapile

# ? May 20, 2024 14:02

CN CREW-VESSEL: Feb 1, 2024; 敌人磨刀我们也磨刀

BonHair posted:

This may sound weird to modern people, but a lot of our ancestors were actually full time employed doing stuff to plants and animals to produce food.

# ? May 20, 2024 14:10

Ruffian Price: Sep 17, 2016

BonHair posted:

This may sound weird to modern people, but a lot of our ancestors were actually full time employed doing stuff to plants and animals to produce food.

It is interesting how we instinctively file "work that benefits the local community" under "free time", having internalized that "work" in a capitalist society is tasks that either don't have any practical use or actively harm the community you're in

# ? May 20, 2024 14:14

poemdexter: Feb 18, 2005; Hooray Indie Games!; College Slice

Ruffian Price posted:

It is interesting how we instinctively file "work that benefits the local community" under "free time", having internalized that "work" in a capitalist society is tasks that either don't have any practical use or actively harm the community you're in

You can simplify that. "Work" is anything that makes rich people richer and everything else is on your time. It has nothing to do with community.

# ? May 20, 2024 15:30

Milo and POTUS: Sep 3, 2017; I will not shut up about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers. I talk about them all the time and work them into every conversation I have. I built a shrine in my room for the yellow one who died because sadly no one noticed because she died around 9/11. Wanna see it?

poemdexter posted:

You can simplify that. "Work" is anything that makes rich people richer and everything else is on your time. It has nothing to do with community.

The work theory of value

# ? May 20, 2024 15:36

World War Mammories: Aug 25, 2006

The Chairman posted:

now you gotta get all your fish-stacking jobs through apps like Codstax and Fintowr and Tilapile

the gig economy. like a gig for spearfishing. is that anything

# ? May 20, 2024 15:40

tokin opposition: Apr 8, 2021; I don't jailbreak the androids, I set them free.

WATCH MARS EXPRESS (2023)

Blue collar spearfishers vs. white collar spearphishers

# ? May 20, 2024 16:18

jeebus bob: Nov 4, 2004; Festina lente

SniperWoreConverse posted:

With the sickle you can just peen it with your hammer and a flat enough rock

Do NOT show this post to the dude who read about eyeballing measurements of drugs and straight up poured them into his eyes

# ? May 20, 2024 18:33

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 20:33

Professor Beetus: Apr 12, 2007; They can fight us
But they'll never Beetus

I would not let sickles, hammers, or rocks anywhere near my peen

# ? May 20, 2024 18:41

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