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zapplez posted:So what does that look like ? Do you have a map? Yeah  Seriously: The 1967 borders and immediate end to the creeping encroachment of those borders are an acceptable start to most people supporting the Palestinian cause, until a proper border treaty can be worked out. the major problem with those borders however is the cordonning off of Gaza from the west bank, which essentially seperates the palestinian population, with a route of transit only sanctioned and controlled by Israel. The other problem with splitting the country is that all the fertile, arable land is in the north, in and around the west bank, while the majority of the bottom half is the Negev desert. Theoretically either side would not want to co-depend on the other, which presents the problem of how go split the arable land. Realistically that codependence would come to pass in time, regardless, thanks to the realities, convinience and cost of trade with neighbouring countries. Rigged Death Trap fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 08:44
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zapplez posted:Ok. What would a map look like of Israel and Palestine if the Palestinians got to rewrite it tomorrow? I'd assume they'd look exactly the same as how the Israelis paint them, the map will be named differently though.
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Jul 10, 2018 08:47
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Do any of the active posters in this thread believe Israel has a right to exist? Or even believe in a two-state solution as a final goal?
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Jul 10, 2018 09:21
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zapplez posted:Do any of the active posters in this thread believe Israel has a right to exist? Or even believe in a two-state solution as a final goal? These are two very silly questions. It doesn't matter whether anyone believes any state has a 'right' to exist. It's a fundamentally nonsense question. It exists. People accept that it exists. As does France, The Russian Federation and the UK. There are several posters who probably still believe in the two-state solution as viable. I no longer do. I used to - in fact my father was at Madrid and Oslo covering the landmarks - but Israeli actions over the last 20 years have rendered it impossible. So I look to a one-state solution, personally, while hoping a two-state solution could still be negotiated.
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Jul 10, 2018 09:25
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Your right to exist is completely irrelevant when you engage in genocide you stupid gently caress
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Jul 10, 2018 09:26
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Israel is making a two state solution less and less possible by blockading Gaza and dissecting the West Bank. At some point it is going to be impossible to deny the obvious point that there are several million people in Israel's effective borders who don't get a say in their government.
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Jul 10, 2018 09:33
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I see the Cop Lover has logged on to defend Israel.
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Jul 10, 2018 09:40
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If you want to argue maps instead of blatant violation of basic human rights: Maps from the 8th century CE - eg Beatus map - clearly show Palestine to be that stretch of coastline between Egypt and Judea. https://kouzlo-starych-map.culturalspot.org/exhibit/twLSa-iUFlGnJw?position=12%3A0 And according to books of the bible written around 3500 years ago it comprised Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron and Gath and stretched from Wadi Gaza in the south and to the Yarqon River in the north. Both the Israeli and the Palestinian authorities blackmail Palestinian gays into acting as spies and informers. If Israeli govt cared that much about gays it wouldn't do that on principle. However it has no principles. No one is pretending the Palestinian authorities are perfect angels nor the Palestinian people, they are normal people with normal human faults and failing. This does not justify the wilful slaughter and maiming of thousands of innocent civilians. It is a technique of authorities around the world to try to smear the victims of state-sponsored violence 'oh, we killed that unarmed guy - but hey he got in a gang fight once or he did a bit of shoplifting so it's ok that we killed him'. Why victims are supposed to be 100% pure and perfect when the apologists for their executors are far from it, I do not know. EDIT see my comment a couple of posts below if you think I believe this map stuff! But if it's good enough for the goose, it's good enough for the gander. Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Jul 10, 2018 |
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Jul 10, 2018 09:50
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Lol Palestine has nothing to do with the historical philistine cities, nor is the fact that the romans called the province Palestine (after the philistines, as an insult to the jews) after they dissolved Judea relevant to the discussion. Just because hardcore zio-bots make very silly historical claims based on an ancient book of fairytales doesn't mean you need to indulge them with even sillier talking points. Palestinians have rights to the land because they lived here and were ethnically cleansed, and because they're human beings who deserve human rights.
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Jul 10, 2018 09:58
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zapplez posted:Do any of the active posters in this thread believe Israel has a right to exist? Or even believe in a two-state solution as a final goal? It's irrelevant. Israel's existence is not under threat. Certainly not from a bunch of poor people with limited infrastructure, who are cordoned off from the world. I would like a real two state solution, but I think it's clear at this point that Israel isn't willing to allow it. They're simply never going to respect the sovereignty of Palestine, and Palestine is never going to stop resisting against them, which Israel will use to justify not respecting Palestinian sovereignty, and on and on. Ultimately it's going to be upon external forces to resolve this conflict by forcing Israel to abide by terms that guarantee the rights and dignity of the Palestinian people moving forward.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:13
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Lol Palestine has nothing to do with the historical philistine cities, nor is the fact that the romans called the province Palestine (after the philistines, as an insult to the jews) after they dissolved Judea relevant to the discussion. I know that. I was making a point. You may not have noticed that I put 'if you want to talk maps instead of human rights' at the top there. Anyone can misuse maps to make points as you say.
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Jul 10, 2018 10:21
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Israel's got as much right to exist as any nation does. But then I don't think nations have an inherent right to exist so much as there's a general need to respect the sovereignty of nations. I also gave up on the two-state solution last year.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:00
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Hong XiuQuan posted:These are two very silly questions. It doesn't matter whether anyone believes any state has a 'right' to exist. It's a fundamentally nonsense question. It exists. People accept that it exists. As does France, The Russian Federation and the UK. So what happens to the Israelis once they lose their country in your one state solution?
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Jul 10, 2018 11:18
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zapplez posted:So what happens to the Israelis once they lose their country in your one state solution? They don't lose their country, they live in one state with the Palestinians as citizens with equal rights.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:27
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No nation has a "right" to exist. Nations exist because they have the means to continue existing. Unless you have a plan to invade Israel and call it something else then it has as much right to exist as any other nation on earth. Israel does abuse human rights on a huge scale which many people disagree with but unless a powerful enough force comes knocking and stops them somehow (politically, economically, militarily, culturally) it will continue and Israel will continue to have the right to exist. Honestly from a realpolitik viewpoint the biggest mistake Israel as a nation is making is not forcing their hand and expanding their borders while they have the means. Israel will not always be the biggest kid on the block and they have made a lot of enemies and from a strategic standpoint they are very vulnerable geographically.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:27
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Flayer posted:No nation has a "right" to exist. Nations exist because they have the means to continue existing. Unless you have a plan to invade Israel and call it something else then it has as much right to exist as any other nation on earth. Israel does abuse human rights on a huge scale which many people disagree with but unless a powerful enough force comes knocking and stops them somehow (politically, economically, militarily, culturally) it will continue and Israel will continue to have the right to exist. You say that as if they're not annexing land de facto and have been doing that since the state's inception.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:32
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emanresu tnuocca posted:
Is that true everywhere or just in the middle east? Because about twenty borders will need to be changed across Europe where one group was the victim of genocide and driven out of a country, let alone Africa, Asia, Australia, both Americas, etc etc. Almost all countries have some kind of great catastrophe like that in their history, with many of them having racial groups change as a result.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:46
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zapplez posted:Is that true everywhere or just in the middle east? Because about twenty borders will need to be changed across Europe where one group was the victim of genocide and driven out of a country, let alone Africa, Asia, Australia, both Americas, etc etc. Almost all countries have some kind of great catastrophe like that in their history, with many of them having racial groups change as a result. If they can show that they're descended from people who were kicked out of somewhere, sure. This isn't ancient history for Palestinians, some people have literally lived through it.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:49
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zapplez posted:Is that true everywhere or just in the middle east? Because about twenty borders will need to be changed across Europe where one group was the victim of genocide and driven out of a country, let alone Africa, Asia, Australia, both Americas, etc etc. Almost all countries have some kind of great catastrophe like that in their history, with many of them having racial groups change as a result. ahh yes, the good old immoral equivalence
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Jul 10, 2018 11:50
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zapplez posted:Is that true everywhere or just in the middle east? Because about twenty borders will need to be changed across Europe where one group was the victim of genocide and driven out of a country, let alone Africa, Asia, Australia, both Americas, etc etc. Almost all countries have some kind of great catastrophe like that in their history, with many of them having racial groups change as a result. Then start a on all these other cases of ethnic cleansing you seem to care so much abut. What difference does anything you’ve said here make for the topic at hand? Because so far you’ve wondered about the moral characteristics of ”thread regulars” and declared that israelis were about to lose their country or some such, without giving any reason or response to any argument provided in return. So uhh, do you have anything to actually say or are you just rehashing old crap that’s been gone through a thousand times already in this very thread is what I’m wondering.
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Jul 10, 2018 11:58
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Alright I've tried having a back and forth but I can see this isn't helping the thread having a different point of view in here. I'll move along and let the echo continue. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 10, 2018 12:04
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zapplez posted:Alright I've tried having a back and forth but I can see this isn't helping the thread having a different point of view in here. I'll move along and let the echo continue. You're an idiot and haven't even responded to people who tried to respond to you in good faith.
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Jul 10, 2018 12:05
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zapplez posted:So what happens to the Israelis once they lose their country in your one state solution? They wouldn't, Israel would just not exist as a religious ethno-state anymore. The country would be Israel, full of Israelis, of many ethnicities and religions. Which other religious ethno states do you support?
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Jul 10, 2018 12:07
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zapplez posted:Do any of the active posters in this thread believe Israel has a right to exist? Or even believe in a two-state solution as a final goal? Humans have rights. States only have the right to suck it. It should be framed as "the right for the Jews to have a homeland", rather than as "the right for Israel to exist as an ethnocratic appartheid settler-colonialist project actively oppressing the population of occupied territories so as to be able to continue to steal their lands and their resources while the rest of the world applauds". But it's always framed as the latter because what really matters for you isn't that the Jews get a homeland, it's that the Palestinians get oppressed. Being tremendously racist against these people is your only real drive.
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Jul 10, 2018 12:12
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zapplez posted:So what happens to the Israelis once they lose their country in your one state solution? It looks to me as if what you’re concerned about isn’t Israelis losing their country, but Israelis losing their ethnostate. Why are you a Jewish supremacist?
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Jul 10, 2018 12:23
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Jesus' idea of dying for humanity's sins was probably his attempt at solving the intractable conflicts in his time. He saw that everyone had grudges against each other and was like "Hey, blame everything on me and start off with a clean slate!"
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Jul 10, 2018 12:40
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zapplez posted:So what happens to the Israelis once they lose their country in your one state solution? Who said anything about losing a country?
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Jul 10, 2018 13:00
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zapplez posted:Is Israel really bad for civil rights compared to the rest of the middle east? I thought it was one of the few countries within a 1000 km that wouldn't throw you off a tower for being gay. And they let their women hold down jobs and drive cars. Seems pretty progressive compared to everything around it. Depends on where you live. You definitely don't want to be openly gay in a Haredi neighborhood, and God help you if you violate their strict gender segregation policies.
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Jul 10, 2018 14:57
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zapplez posted:Alright I've tried having a back and forth but I can see this isn't helping the thread having a different point of view in here. I'll move along and let the echo continue. any time you want to start actually defending your half-assed apologia we'll be glad* to have you back particularly interested in why you think Israel will cease to exist if the untermenschen are granted civil rights
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Jul 10, 2018 15:21
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zapplez posted:Alright I've tried having a back and forth but I can see this isn't helping the thread having a different point of view in here. I'll move along and let the echo continue. Good riddance you piece of poo poo. I bet you have a deck of flash cards you just shuffle and pull out at random each with a different hasbara approach to determine how you're responding to people in this thread.
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Jul 10, 2018 18:22
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Ultramega posted:Good riddance you piece of poo poo. I bet you have a deck of flash cards you just shuffle and pull out at random each with a different hasbara approach to determine how you're responding to people in this thread. it was jeffersonclay, lmfao
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Jul 10, 2018 18:32
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Do you guys have any good news sites or general history sites about the issue that you recommend? Preferably ones that are written objectively as possible, maybe by people that arent in either religious or ethnic group.
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Jul 10, 2018 22:19
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zapplez posted:Do you guys have any good news sites or general history sites about the issue that you recommend? Preferably ones that are written objectively as possible, maybe by people that arent in either religious or ethnic group. As a certain thread in a certain subforum says, "an impartial opinion would be appreciated," eh?
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Jul 10, 2018 22:21
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zapplez posted:Do you guys have any good news sites or general history sites about the issue that you recommend? Preferably ones that are written objectively as possible, maybe by people that arent in either religious or ethnic group. Objectivity: "HRH Felipe VI of Spain is the rightful King of Jerusalem."
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Jul 10, 2018 22:45
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dershowitz is still lying about ruining finkelstein's career. https://twitter.com/AlanDersh/status/1015327923614732288
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Jul 10, 2018 22:45
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zapplez posted:Do you guys have any good news sites or general history sites about the issue that you recommend? Preferably ones that are written objectively as possible, maybe by people that arent in either religious or ethnic group. Yes. Eat the pink part of my rear end to log in. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 10, 2018 22:54
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https://twitter.com/Bro_Pair/status/1016806049528012800
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Jul 10, 2018 23:16
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zapplez posted:Do you guys have any good news sites or general history sites about the issue that you recommend? Preferably ones that are written objectively as possible, maybe by people that arent in either religious or ethnic group. No, we just guess and make poo poo up You idiot
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Jul 10, 2018 23:17
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zapplez posted:Do you guys have any good news sites or general history sites about the issue that you recommend? Preferably ones that are written objectively as possible, maybe by people that arent in either religious or ethnic group. There usually aren't people who write big detailed in-depth study of highly controversial conflicts without having an opinion on whose story is more accurate.
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Jul 10, 2018 23:18
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Main Paineframe posted:There usually aren't people who write big detailed in-depth study of highly controversial conflicts without having an opinion on whose story is more accurate. Maybe if you find someone espousing zapplez's point of view he'll deem them objective enough.
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Jul 10, 2018 23:21
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