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TwoWordName posted:I believe the main complaint is that it's part of a much larger cultural trend that lesbians exist within stories to be murdered for pathos. It's part of a larger media problem that gay couples always to die so tears can be shed about the cruelty of the world because they didn't deserve this awful fate. Which of course ignores the problem that these stories tend to exist entirely for the gaze and gratification of an assumed heterosexual writer and audience. Spouses exist, in a lot of media, to be killed off for pathos. Fictional straight dude protagonists have been getting their wives killed for pathos for a long time; now that there actually are gay and lesbian protagonists, it's happening to them too. It's really, really stupid. Not that what you're talking about doesn't happen a lot too, but there's an entire rainbow of lovely reasons why this sort of thing happens.
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May 7, 2016 00:21
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TwoWordName posted:I believe the main complaint is that it's part of a much larger cultural trend that lesbians exist within stories to be murdered for pathos. It's part of a larger media problem that gay couples always to die so tears can be shed about the cruelty of the world because they didn't deserve this awful fate. Which of course ignores the problem that these stories tend to exist entirely for the gaze and gratification of an assumed heterosexual writer and audience. playing devil's advocate tho wod/cod stuff has been more or less pretty good when it comes to queer stuff so it still comes off a little strange to jump instantly to 'gently caress opp, end of story' hyperbole even with that trend in mind admittedly i haven't read the fluff in question but in a setting like this i'd expect 9 out of 10 happy couples introduced in the mood-establishing fiction aren't a happy couple by the end, regardless of genders involved e: one of the few cod fictions i can recall offhand is the intro to demon where the climax involves a stigmatic husband gets killed to further the emotional drama of his demon wife Brother Entropy fucked around with this message at 00:32 on May 7, 2016 |
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May 7, 2016 00:27
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Brother Entropy posted:e: one of the few cod fictions i can recall offhand is the intro to demon where the climax involves a stigmatic husband gets killed to further the emotional drama of his demon wife It's also really good. Kill more spouses in fiction, imo. CoD isn't in the business of happy endings and I generally play it for the gut-wrenching drama aspect, I get the idea of representation in media but I am 99% sure the idea here was to appear inclusive rather than promise death to all lesbians. Presentation of homosexual, especially f/f, and healthy relationships may be sparing but it has got better. Your choice here is erasure, via not writing about lesbians at all, going out of theme by giving them a happy ending because lesbians don't get a fair shake elsewhere, or what we got, which is the most sane and reasonable of all three choices.
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May 7, 2016 00:38
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Now that I think about it, I remember being really surprised when I read one of the example creatures in Summoners which was the Astral embodiment of a particular mage's joy, representation by an idealized form of his boyfriend. The description has no trauma or bad poo poo whatsoever, it's just a happy status quo. I hadn't really thought about that since I came out but clearly it's rare enough that it stood out. I actually really liked the basic premise of The Door where the root of the problem is obsession itself, but I feel like that conceit was done a little better in Crimson Lips, the Mage Noir story from the fiction anthology. Which, I'm just now realizing, I think also centers around a bad end for a lesbian character. Hmm!
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May 7, 2016 01:13
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While it's true that CofD stories aren't really in this for the happy endings, it's likewise too that, in the general media at large, homosexual relationships seem to exist exclusively to die in tragedy. It's possible to go "no see EVERYONE suffers in CofD" and still be guilty of throwing all the gays into the woodchipper. I don't read any of the fiction so I couldn't say either way there.
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May 7, 2016 03:14
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Cabbit posted:Spouses exist, in a lot of media, to be killed off for pathos. Fictional straight dude protagonists have been getting their wives killed for pathos for a long time; now that there actually are gay and lesbian protagonists, it's happening to them too. It's really, really stupid. If you were to take a proportion of couples that involve a main character and compare the proportion of heterosexual and homosexual couples that have a bad end, there's probably a higher proportion of homosexual couples that have a bad end when compared to heterosexual ones. It's largely unintentional I'd imagine, but it still occurs.
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May 7, 2016 04:08
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Is there a Scion thread around here somewhere? I feel like bitching about the Aztlanti and White Wolf's take on Mesoamerican culture in general and I'm not sure if this is the right thread or not.
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May 7, 2016 04:22
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citybeatnik posted:Is there a Scion thread around here somewhere? I feel like bitching about the Aztlanti and White Wolf's take on Mesoamerican culture in general and I'm not sure if this is the right thread or not. This is probably the right thread and it's probably one of Scion's many problems
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May 7, 2016 04:26
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Xelkelvos posted:This is probably the right thread and it's probably one of Scion's many problems I've just had too many margaritas and am feeling salty about the whole thing is all. The goddess of filth and cleansing is turned in to a loving sex pot as opposed to her actual role, the goddess of childbirth and death is some moon-eyed woman being tricked, and the god of death is depicted as less a king of the underworld and more of a spiteful middle manager type. And of course the nicest god in the pantheon is also the whitest, furthering that loving stereotype. The Hummingbird of the Left is pretty spot on though. But the Pantheon's depicted as one of the youngest but then you've got poo poo like the Olmec and the Incan empires hanging out there. I -like- the idea of a pantheon that's basically Ghost Dog: Way of the Eagle Warrior and are focused on making sure that the sun comes up, spring follows winter, and the stars stay where they are because Huitzilopochtli would kick their asses if they moved elsewhere. It's just irksome. I might be reading too much in to it is all. Needs more "CORN FOR THE CORN GOD! MAIZE FOR THE THRONE OF MAIZE!".
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May 7, 2016 04:45
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Now now, to be fair, all the goddesses were treated super horribly by Scion.
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May 7, 2016 05:12
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Isn't Rose Bailey heading up the 2nd edition? I know there's been talk about not being so tone deaf and racist about the pantheons this time.
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May 7, 2016 05:16
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To be fair, I think the Loa are pretty cool. So I might have lovely opinions.
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May 7, 2016 05:18
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Soonmot posted:Isn't Rose Bailey heading up the 2nd edition? I know there's been talk about not being so tone deaf and racist about the pantheons this time. Yeah IIRC she wrote a post that was straight up "We were racist and sexist as gently caress and we're sorry."
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May 7, 2016 05:19
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Like every goddess had at least one prostitute in their possible forms.
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May 7, 2016 05:20
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What's really awful is that kind of poo poo also wound up going on in the neopagan 'community' at the time because of a fairly similar market base and exploitative writers, so there's still an awful lot of weird sexuality stuff going on with goddesses who never had that dimension in their original contexts. Similarly, if I hear one more Wiccan around here try and cram every female deity into the Maiden-Mother-Crone cycle I will just scream.
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May 7, 2016 07:33
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Loomer posted:I expect that's just part of the World of Darkness branded slot machines they've licensed. Not exactly words I ever thought I'd type, but it's nice to see Paradox getting into the same spirit as WWP had when it licensed Gangrel, the Pro-Wrestler. quote:downloadable publications in relation to role-playing games; downloadable publications in relation to computer games; video game software; application software for mobile phones; computer game software Also Gangrel owned
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May 7, 2016 09:13
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Hey all, just a guy cross posting over here - we're short a player or two for a roll20-assisted game of Demon that will take place biweekly, either on Thursdays or weekends. If anyone's curious I implore you to give us a shot, we could use the help and I love reading new character concepts.
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May 7, 2016 10:34
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If you guys get a chance, give Wizards of Aus a watch. It's just perfect as a look at what'd happen if traditionalists ran about willynilly in the modern day.
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May 7, 2016 12:03
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Loomer posted:Similarly, if I hear one more Wiccan around here try and cram every female deity into the Maiden-Mother-Crone cycle I will just scream. This just seems to be a rule of nature; I don't think you can blame that one on WW.
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May 7, 2016 12:34
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spectralent posted:This just seems to be a rule of nature; I don't think you can blame that one on WW. Well people have a tendency to try and heuristically frame things in ways that makes more sense to them. It becomes easier to understand and relate to them (as well as being easier to recall) at the cost of diluting or even completely misrepresenting the original. This often bleeds into fiction and belief systems and is how you get things like the portrayal of Hades being like the Devil
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May 7, 2016 14:06
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Yeah, I don't blame it on WW. It's just the same sort of thing, and a lot of it comes from isolationist wiccan (or whatever they call it when you aren't initiated by one of the Lines; I'm not a wiccan) literature that tried to force foreign deities into specific roles they were highly unsuited to in their traditional aspect.
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May 7, 2016 14:46
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All this wiccan chat is reminding me of an article I read that talked about MRAs getting involved in Wicca and trying to take over groups. I'm going to see if I can find it. And at least in Scion the Aztlanti are, like, protagonists. And not treated as worshiping a literal Earthbound demon and basically existing in a state of constant Wyrm-taint.
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May 7, 2016 15:10
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citybeatnik posted:All this wiccan chat is reminding me of an article I read that talked about MRAs getting involved in Wicca and trying to take over groups. 
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May 7, 2016 16:42
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http://mic.com/articles/128928/there-s-a-sexism-problem-in-the-modern-witchcraft-community#.EyjIDdgig Ended up scrolling through like a year's worth of Skype chat to find the drat thing. In my travels through said log I was also reminded of the fact that I used to have a Scion of Huitzilopochtli in a game set in the golden age of piracy that was basically a walking wrecking-ball of destruction named Hummingbird. I -really- do like the idea of the Aztlanti and their brutally efficient take on what's important (a person is not important. A city is not important. A country is not important. All that is important is that the sun rises and sets and the seasons change.). And it was fun playing an actual native as opposed to all of the random Europeans that were showing up. Maybe I just need a better group of people to play with.
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May 7, 2016 17:54
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The mention of it in connection to Crowleyites is pretty accurate. A lot of OTO folk are super heavy about maintaining the masculine/feminine dynamic when it comes to the Gnostic mass's participants.
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May 7, 2016 18:05
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"There's a GOD and a GODDESS and that's just how it is" is a surprisingly popular sentiment.
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May 7, 2016 19:41
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Loomer posted:The mention of it in connection to Crowleyites is pretty accurate. A lot of OTO folk are super heavy about maintaining the masculine/feminine dynamic when it comes to the Gnostic mass's participants. Which is a shame, because when I fist got started with them, they were all about gender bending the roles. I mean I can look at original Crowly literature and sorta get why there's a lot of regressives running around, but having strict norms just goes against every aspect of a religion that is mostly there to scare norms.
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May 7, 2016 19:45
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I'm disappointed to see that the consequences to your spellpower for releasing vs. containing a paradox are still thematically backwards in mage 2E, as indicated by preview material. For some reason, taking the full consequences of a poorly-conceived spell onto yourself rather than loosing them on the world is the best way to ensure that your spell is cast at full power and achieves its intended effects. It should be the case that containing a paradox imposes a penalty to the casting pool and has the chance of making it hit the wrong target or fail outright (in addition to damaging or cursing you or whatever), while releasing a paradox guarantees that your spell-as-imagined goes off without a hitch but in fact does too much, having additional effects on its target or environs that you didn't consciously intend but perhaps wanted deep down or couldn't help but subconsciously imagine.
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May 7, 2016 20:34
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Eagerly awaiting a release date for The Act of Hubris Second Edition
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May 7, 2016 20:44
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MonsieurChoc posted:Now now, to be fair, all the goddesses were treated super horribly by Scion. They seemed to think because all the Greek Goddess were super horny rear end in a top hat sluts, so were all the others.
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May 7, 2016 20:47
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Ferrinus posted:I'm disappointed to see that the consequences to your spellpower for releasing vs. containing a paradox are still thematically backwards in mage 2E, as indicated by preview material. For some reason, taking the full consequences of a poorly-conceived spell onto yourself rather than loosing them on the world is the best way to ensure that your spell is cast at full power and achieves its intended effects. It's always felt to me like containing the paradox is pretty much always the no brainer option
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May 7, 2016 20:47
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Little_wh0re posted:It's always felt to me like containing the paradox is pretty much always the no brainer option Yeah, like, as far as I can tell the worst outcome is always going to be that you deal yourself a point of resistant lethal a little ways down the line. This is only on first readthrough on the train, mind you.
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May 7, 2016 20:49
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Soaking paradox should either hurt more or cost you mana or something to actually incentivize you to not do that. Right now there is literally no situation where you wouldn't want to just soak the paradox unless you were elbow-deep in The poo poo already and already on the verge of death or something which seems wrong, and makes paradox and the whole thematic element of the Abyss way less interesting/threatening.
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May 7, 2016 21:26
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NutritiousSnack posted:They seemed to think because all the Greek Goddess were super horny rear end in a top hat sluts, so were all the others. The entire Greek pantheon is stupid, and you can typically tell whether a female god pictured in the books if from that pantheon or another based off of whether or not they have their tits out. The fact that Aphrodite doesn't have access to the domain of Animal (Frog) is also a shame. Hades is a bro through. As for the witchcraft/wiccan chat, there's apparently someone in my office that's practicing OTO or at least trying to. I found a copy of the Ruby Star on the bathroom sink of all loving places.
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May 7, 2016 21:26
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Reene posted:Right now there is literally no situation where you wouldn't want to just soak the paradox unless you were elbow-deep in The poo poo already and already on the verge of death or something which seems wrong, and makes paradox and the whole thematic element of the Abyss way less interesting/threatening. Also, who the gently caress thought it was a good idea to not let anyone advance their arcana to 5 without getting gnosis 5 first? Going on the suggested number of beats per session, I have to spend twenty loving sessions just on raising gnosis (assuming I wanted starting merits at all) just to be allowed to buy up my arcana, which is roughly 4 sessions each? gently caress me, most games don't even get to the 6 month mark, let alone past it. I haven't gotten to reading the magic section in full yet so maybe the arcana are way more powerful at 4 & 5 and thus deserve to be held behind thaumium gates, so if someone has read those though and has a more informed opinion on this please lay it on me, but my first reaction is "gently caress that, let me have my drat dots when I want to spend for them."
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May 7, 2016 21:43
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An Arcanum at 5 is terrifyingly powerful. At five dots of Matter, you possess the capability to, at will, create literally any object you could ever want, and destroy same. At Mind 5 you can trap someone indefinitely in a hellish hole of unthought. At Life 5 you can render an entire area not only devoid of life but devoid of the ability to sustain life of any kind.
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May 7, 2016 21:46
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Speaking of mastery, how does an ST run a game where probably some NPCs are Masters? What happens when a Time Master NPC time travels? I've just skimmed the book, but it kinda seems like a clusterfuck waiting to happen.
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May 7, 2016 21:51
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I suggest you closely read the Time section, which fairly comprehensively covers how Mage time travel works.
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May 7, 2016 21:55
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At Forces 5 you can bring about the heat-death of the universe
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May 7, 2016 22:05
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Okay so Death spells that screw with shadows and ectoplasm or whatever just immediately ignore the established definitions of the Practices like four pages prior. Also the Veiling Practice is actually two Practices, and Fraying/Unraveling have that ", also, you may cast Damage Bolt" thing. Come on! EDIT: Given that there's no longer a distinction between Covert and Vulgar magic, though, the Practice of Compelling actually has a reason to exist in this game. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 22:49 on May 7, 2016 |
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May 7, 2016 22:46
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