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Sankta Lucia posted:Here in Norway, Christianity has long since been replaced by spirits, ghosts and mediums. It's fascinating to watch people so indifferent towards the Church - often because of lack of evidence - be this into tarot cards and Liza Williams gigs. I never got why people believe in ghosts to spite or as an alternative to Christianity because when paranormal researchers find a demon, they call in a Catholic priest and bathe themselves in holy water
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Nov 12, 2015 17:34
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Smoking Crow posted:I never got why people believe in ghosts to spite or as an alternative to Christianity because when paranormal researchers find a demon, they call in a Catholic priest and bathe themselves in holy water Yeah but that never works in horror movies. The priest'll do a blessing or exorcism and the demon/ghost just goes "lmao." I wonder what that says about society that they'll always turn to religion to solve the problem, but it never works and usually just gives the false impression that it helped.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:40
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Mo Tzu posted:Yeah but that never works in horror movies. The priest'll do a blessing or exorcism and the demon/ghost just goes "lmao." I wonder what that says about society that they'll always turn to religion to solve the problem, but it never works and usually just gives the false impression that it helped. Stupid renaissance with your stupid witches and your stupid alchemy and your stupid Gnostic worldview
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Nov 12, 2015 17:45
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Smoking Crow posted:Stupid renaissance with your stupid witches and your stupid alchemy and your stupid Gnostic worldview wait but renaissance alchemy stuff owns tho
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Nov 12, 2015 17:48
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Mo Tzu posted:Yeah but that never works in horror movies. The priest'll do a blessing or exorcism and the demon/ghost just goes "lmao." I wonder what that says about society that they'll always turn to religion to solve the problem, but it never works and usually just gives the false impression that it helped. On a related note, I like modern pulpy things like A Song of Ice and Fire and video games like Dragon Age. Now a lot of these medieval fantasy things have Christianity analogues. Faith of the Seven in ASOIAF and Andrastianism in DA. They're not 1:1 copies but; they're clearly supposed to resemble the Church. Yet, they have no real power, as in mystical power. ASOIAF has religions with real, proven gods and magical abilities but those are from other religions. DA is the same. The result is that the "Christianity" of the setting comes out looking like a bum deal.
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Nov 12, 2015 17:49
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NikkolasKing posted:On a related note, I like modern pulpy things like A Song of Ice and Fire and video games like Dragon Age. See I would argue that those are specifically Catholic analogues. American culture at large remains Protestant down to its bones in a way that not even Germany is, and you see that in those books/games where real god(s) are very much real and can be experienced firsthand by people, but the place they're specifically not is in the big churchy thing with the statues and the rituals.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:02
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Well, the accusation seems to be "the sacred surely exists, but you have lost any legitimate authority to negotiate with it." As a fictional construct it accomodates atheists, the superstitious, religious free-thinkers, pagans, and arguably even Protestants, while downplaying the contradictions between each of those worldviews.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:03
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I think another reason why people aren't invested in Christianity is that people don't actually know that much about it. Religious education in the United States is really bad. People don't know what Catholics or Orthodox or Lutherans actually believe. I think that if people are allowed to see the man behind the curtain and learn why these beliefs and practices exist, Christianity will seem less arbitraryNikkolasKing posted:On a related note, I like modern pulpy things like A Song of Ice and Fire and video games like Dragon Age. I recommend enjoying better things in the future
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Nov 12, 2015 18:08
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Bel_Canto posted:wait but renaissance alchemy stuff owns tho Bel_Canto posted:See I would argue that those are specifically Catholic analogues. American culture at large remains Protestant down to its bones in a way that not even Germany is HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Nov 12, 2015 |
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Nov 12, 2015 18:11
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Bel_Canto posted:See I would argue that those are specifically Catholic analogues. American culture at large remains Protestant down to its bones in a way that not even Germany is, and you see that in those books/games where real god(s) are very much real and can be experienced firsthand by people, but the place they're specifically not is in the big churchy thing with the statues and the rituals. This is a good point. I've never really thought about how Protestantism has influenced every aspect of American culture for all of its history. We were founded by all those religious nuts Europe didn't want and that hasn't let up even after all this time. Just one more fascinating aspect of Christian history.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:20
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speak for yourself, gringo edit: 
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Nov 12, 2015 18:21
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Smoking Crow posted:I think another reason why people aren't invested in Christianity is that people don't actually know that much about it. Religious education in the United States is really bad. People don't know what Catholics or Orthodox or Lutherans actually believe. I think that if people are allowed to see the man behind the curtain and learn why these beliefs and practices exist, Christianity will seem less arbitrary I didn't even know people could convert to Eastern Orthodoxy until I got to college. I've talked to campus ministers about this before, and the number of kids entering college who simply don't know anything about Christianity beyond "Jesus performed a bunch of miracles and then was crucified" is staggering to them. I think we have this idea among the older generation that kids in the US will learn all they need to know about Christianity through cultural osmosis, but that idea is simply untrue. As far as evangelizing the west again, the Calvary Chapel near me is scoping out the possibility of a church plant in Berlin. Toronto's a hot area for mission work now since I think it's the least religious metropolitan area in the western world. I imagine the seeker-friendly churches with spirit-led worship and little doctrine will make some inroads since they scratch that "I'm spiritual but not religious" itch that many people have today. I don't particularly like it, but that's what seems to be happening.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:23
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HEY GAL posted:speak for yourself, gringo I agree with that map
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Nov 12, 2015 18:23
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NikkolasKing posted:This is a good point. I've never really thought about how Protestantism has influenced every aspect of American culture for all of its history. We were founded by all those religious nuts Europe didn't want and that hasn't let up even after all this time. One of my favorite things on the internet is that you start noticing a pattern and can fairly reliably guess if an angry zealous person in a religious debate is from the bible belt. Doesn't matter if they're a protestant or an atheist, they think the same way, and often make the same implied conclusions in their thinking about Christianity, and it's only their final conclusion that is different.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:25
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my dad posted:One of my favorite things on the internet is that you start noticing a pattern and can fairly reliably guess if an angry zealous person in a religious debate is from the bible belt. Doesn't matter if they're a protestant or an atheist, they think the same way, and often make the same implied conclusions in their thinking about Christianity, and it's only their final conclusion that is different. catholic atheists are still quite catholic, especially in areas where it's an identity thing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism#Roman_Catholic
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Nov 12, 2015 18:48
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Now that the subject has come up, I'm having a hard time thinking of very many examples of pop culture (at least from my lifetime) where a church or religion plays much of a positive role. I suppose there are things like Touched by an Angel or Highway to Heaven, but those might be better described as Quantum Leap with Christian artificial flavoring. Buffy the Vampire Slayer routinely used crucifixes and holy water against various vampires and demons, but the main protagonists sure weren't churchgoers. Star Trek? TNG was rabidly anti-religious, DS9 portrayed the RCC-like Bajoran religion in a very mixed sort of light, and Voyager had occasional Generic Native American Spirituality that they made up in the writers' room as they went along. In Harry Potter, magic is a force to be studied and mastered, not an entity to be worshipped... and in Star Wars, the Force is (mostly) treated the same way. In Ghostbusters, the spiritual world definitely exists but it can be overpowered by science and technology. Probably the best example I can think of is Firefly -- Shepherd Book was very much the crew's conscience, although it's made clear he was a very unusual Shepherd.
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Nov 12, 2015 18:58
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boondock saints the emotional impact of the godfather's baptism scene depends on the audience taking the question 'do you reject satan and all his works' seriously if the characters are 'ethnic' it's ok
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Nov 12, 2015 19:00
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Yeah, I've noticed that too. If someone is perceived as not a white Westerner, it's acceptable to be religious. People of Italian descent in New York City can be religious, but someone of English descent being religious in NYC is weird
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Nov 12, 2015 19:11
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Well, let's see... You mentioned Buffy and that makes me think of what inspired all modern vampires, Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles. Now I absolutely hate when some people read things into a piece of fiction and try to use it to psychoanalyze the creator. But given Mrs. Rice's detailed real life religious stuff, her books can be seen in an interesting light because they have a wonderfully schizophrenic view of religion that reflects her own quest to find God. Quality of the books aside, I always found that neat. Generally though, religion and God are pretty neutral in her VC books. You mentioned "Generic Native American" stuff and that is hugely popular. It saved Mulder's life in The X-Files. But you made me think of Disney's Pocahontas and that in turn made me think of Disney's Hunchback of Notre-Dame. I'm a great admirer of Victor Hugo and I think the differences between the adaptation and the original can be viewed as a product of modern times. Frollo loses all the sympathetic aspects he once had in the original work. Also while this is anything but modern, I always loved how the most noble character in Les Miserables was the Bishop, I even once read a blog post from an atheist who could not help but admire how well Hugo crafted this devoutly religious figure. For more hit children series like Harry Potter, Artemis Fowl presented a kind of esotericism in a very positive light. JRPG's tend to be very down on organized religion but that's just because organized religion is an easy villain, much like Big Corporations. My favorite video game, Xenogears, features both a good church and an evil church.
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Nov 12, 2015 19:17
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I recommend gaining an appreciation for good video games
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Nov 12, 2015 19:19
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pidan posted:I don't think the church should send more people to stand in the marketplace and shout at pedestrians or collect grieving people's addresses JW-style. But maybe it could do some of the things that make Buddhism or Yoga successful in the west: like offer some courses on spirituality or even some activities / entertainments that are only marginally connected to the underlying religion. Churches could have a bunch of more open activities that aren't all-or-nothing. I think if people feel pressured to convert, it drives them away. I can't imagine the TURN OR BURN street preachers or "If you died today, do you know where you'll end up?" street evangelists are too successful because they both assume the listener already believes in heaven and hell. I picked up a tract a couple months ago that I was actually pretty impressed with. It was just a summary of Christ's grace and sacrifice on the cross printed in both English and Spanish with an invitation to show up to church so you could see how they are glorifying God. There was no sinner's prayer at the end or a high-pressure sales pitch about the state of your immortal soul. It was refreshing to see something so positive. There's definitely a pressing need to re-think how we're evangelizing in the modern era.
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Nov 12, 2015 19:20
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Babylon 5 was pretty classy. Only one or two of the protagonist humans were religious, I think, but they all were sensible people. You got a few religious weirdos on the station occationally but at about the same ratio with cool priests. I think there even were one or two episodes where the potential problems of Christianity in a post-first-contact (and second and third and 20th contact) universe was toyed with.
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Nov 12, 2015 19:20
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It's one of the reasons I love the Dresden Files books: Christianity is consistently portrayed in a very positive light, and while God himself has not made an appearance the most consistently moral human character in the series is a devout Christian and literal holy warrior of God who is protected by archangels. However, the Knights of the Cross are demonstrated to be under no obligation to be Christian themselves despite carrying swords bearing nails from the Cross and benefiting from angelic powers - one is Jewish, and one is an agnostic who thinks it's equally likely that Uriel is an alien posing as an angel but that doesn't diminish the worth of what he does. The main protagonist of the series is an atheist (well kind of, he admits gods exist including the Big G but he himself is not religious), but even he admits that while he doesn't believe, Christianity in general is a powerful and positive force for good.
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Nov 12, 2015 19:22
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Daredevil miniseries was pretty good e: Charlie Cox, the guy who played Daredevil, was the lead in a biopic of Josemaria Escriva which is kinda funny
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Nov 12, 2015 19:22
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Valiantman posted:Babylon 5 was pretty classy. Only one or two of the protagonist humans were religious, I think, but they all were sensible people. You got a few religious weirdos on the station occationally but at about the same ratio with cool priests. I think there even were one or two episodes where the potential problems of Christianity in a post-first-contact (and second and third and 20th contact) universe was toyed with. I've heard some people describe B5 as LOTR In Space. I doubt it's that simple but perhaps the writer was at least heavily influenced by Tolkien?
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Nov 12, 2015 19:25
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It's amazing how the Orthodox in this thread have good taste while the rest have bad taste Perhaps they are related...
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Nov 12, 2015 19:26
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Smoking Crow posted:I recommend gaining an appreciation for good video games Yeah, like Left Behind: Eternal Forces and Bibleman: The Fight For Faith.
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Nov 12, 2015 19:27
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Smoking Crow posted:It's amazing how the Orthodox in this thread have good taste while the rest have bad taste Maybe it's the desktop icons that make the difference.
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Nov 12, 2015 19:39
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Deteriorata posted:Maybe it's the desktop icons that make the difference. gently caress you i just spit out my tea laughing at that
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Nov 12, 2015 19:42
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boardgames are way better than videogames anyway
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Nov 12, 2015 19:48
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Cythereal posted:It's one of the reasons I love the Dresden Files books: fffffuck Smoking Crow posted:It's amazing how the Orthodox in this thread have good taste while the rest have bad taste Says the guy with the anime avatar The whole thing about religion in game of thrones is one of the many aspects that sends me into a tizzy when someone says "oh, except for the magic stuff that's what the middle ages were like". The ineffectiveness or absence of religion in the face of danger, even supernatural danger, (Ghostbusters is a good example I hadn't thought of) is a big cultural undercurrent in the west I think. The Exorcist is a more explicit example. Hellboy is the opposite, ofc, but Mike Mignola has never been inside an Orthodox church, maybe never even seen the inside of one, so he doesn't get entirely off the hook. On another note, the association of Christianity with the Right is not a US thing exclusively. La Falange, the influence of Nicholas II over the church, the Lateran Treaty, etc all influence how the Church is felt.
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Nov 12, 2015 19:50
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:fffffuck I find that as long as I skip over the creepy sex stuff the Dresden Files are fun light reading.
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Nov 12, 2015 19:54
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:The whole thing about religion in game of thrones is one of the many aspects that sends me into a tizzy when someone says "oh, except for the magic stuff that's what the middle ages were like". Until I actually started to study up on Medieval/Early Modern Christianity, the fat, decadent, royal puppet High Speton/Pope was perfectly accurate. The Protestants did a good job of making the Church look like a completely out-of-touch and absolutely corrupt piece of poo poo it seems and even a lot of people today hold this view. Or at least here in America.
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Nov 12, 2015 20:02
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Powered Descent posted:Now that the subject has come up, I'm having a hard time thinking of very many examples of pop culture (at least from my lifetime) where a church or religion plays much of a positive role. I can think of one: in the Dragon Quest games, all the churches follow a monotheistic Goddess religion, whose priests have the power to cure illnesses, divine the future, raise the dead, and save your data. I don't recall it ever becoming malevolent, unless a priest is possessed by a demonic sceptre or something. In DQ7 and 9, the bad guys are both demonic figures who've tried to usurp and/or impersonate God (who's male in both, but I seem to remember everyone still worshiping the Goddess in DQ9). It's certainly a difference from, say, Grandia II, where the last boss is the Pope. And FWIW, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows does quote the New Testament positively a few times. There's no overt portrayal of religion, but Rowling was trying to convey Christian themes. Oh, I thought of one more example: the 90's X-Men cartoon, which has an episode where Nightcrawler, who was raised by monks in this version, helps Wolverine find Jesus. It's pretty much an animated religious tract, with mutants.
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Nov 12, 2015 20:11
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Valiantman posted:Babylon 5 was pretty classy. Only one or two of the protagonist humans were religious, I think, but they all were sensible people. You got a few religious weirdos on the station occationally but at about the same ratio with cool priests. I think there even were one or two episodes where the potential problems of Christianity in a post-first-contact (and second and third and 20th contact) universe was toyed with. pope's a chick in the B5 universe, she's mentioned in a few episodes http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/Bernadette_II also that ownage lesbian is a devout jew kitty pride and magneto meet at a holocaust-related commemorative event once
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Nov 12, 2015 20:19
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NikkolasKing posted:Until I actually started to study up on Medieval/Early Modern Christianity, the fat, decadent, royal puppet High Speton/Pope was perfectly accurate. The Protestants did a good job of making the Church look like a completely out-of-touch and absolutely corrupt piece of poo poo it seems and even a lot of people today hold this view. Or at least here in America. Well, from my mostly Lutheran religious education and a lot of reading about Reformation history, I'd say it's more that the Catholic Church cleaned up a lot of their act. I realize that's coming from a biased perspective and reading of history and I don't mean it to be inflammatory, but there were very real issues with corruption and politics in the Church leading up to the Reformation. Luther wasn't the first to take a stand against the Church, and his ideas draw heavily from the earlier attempts of Wycliffe (England) and Hus (Bohemia), all of them are responding to the corruption of the late Medieval/Renaissance Church. I'd argue the Protestants didn't effect much change in Catholic theology like they wanted, but the Catholic counter-Reformation cleaned up a lot of the corruption issues. So for me a lot of the Reformation-era propaganda seems really hyperbolic from a modern perspective.
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Nov 12, 2015 20:21
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NikkolasKing posted:I've heard some people describe B5 as LOTR In Space. I doubt it's that simple but perhaps the writer was at least heavily influenced by Tolkien? Most people writing scifi/fantasy post-Tolkien probably are, but if there's one thing that I enjoyed in both (incidentally, I first read Tolkien's works around the same time B5 was in the air), it's that despite world-changing events taking place, most of the pages/screentime is reserved for describing the world and how it is like to live in it. In LoTR, very few life-threatening or earth shaking events happen until the cast is in Moria. In B5 same goes on for nearly two of the four (five) seasons. Both throw few but significant appetizers for you early on but focus on creating the setting. Deteriorata posted:Maybe it's the desktop icons that make the difference.  StashAugustine posted:boardgames are way better than videogames anyway Where are these from and why do I not know of this game?
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Nov 12, 2015 20:25
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It's from Here I Stand. (Its, uh.. not actually very good, I just picked it cause it's the most theological game I could think of). There's a PBF of the spiritual successor Virgin Queen here but the guy running it hasn't posted in like a month 
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Nov 12, 2015 20:30
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Pellisworth posted:Well, from my mostly Lutheran religious education and a lot of reading about Reformation history, I'd say it's more that the Catholic Church cleaned up a lot of their act. I realize that's coming from a biased perspective and reading of history and I don't mean it to be inflammatory, but there were very real issues with corruption and politics in the Church leading up to the Reformation. Luther wasn't the first to take a stand against the Church, and his ideas draw heavily from the earlier attempts of Wycliffe (England) and Hus (Bohemia), all of them are responding to the corruption of the late Medieval/Renaissance Church. Now I'm no expert but the history lectures and stuff I've been listening to lately say that, while there was definite corruption and abuses going on, there were people trying to change things even before Luther.This guy for one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desiderius_Erasmus The entire "'Catholic humanist" movement seemed to be trying to fix the complaints Reformers would later have with the Church. Ironically, Catholics don't seem to like him much, if the Google searches I just found are any indication.
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Nov 12, 2015 20:51
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NikkolasKing posted:Now I'm no expert but the history lectures and stuff I've been listening to lately say that, while there was definite corruption and abuses going on, there were people trying to change things even before Luther.This guy for one. Oh sure, that was part of my point-- Luther didn't appear out of the blue with all these whacky theses on what he perceived as theological and doctrinal errors in the Church. Luther wasn't uniquely gifted or a paragon of piety or anything (he was a huge goonlord), he's building on a long line of important thinkers trying to change the Church. It's also important to note Luther didn't set out to splinter the Church, he wanted to reform it from within. The reason the Reformation really kicked off with him is because the printing press is invented right around that time. Not a matter of Luther being the bestest Reformer so much as the political climate and printing technology being just right.
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Nov 12, 2015 20:58
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