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OnimaruXLR posted:I'm a little confused on Moira's motivations. Unless she doesn't care about the long-long term, I don't really see how humans beat machines on their own, and if mutants are depowered and essentially "absorbed" into humanity, that doesn't really seem like it improves anyone's chances. Yeah her motivations and plans are... Not Well Defined and at this point full of holes. Also she really hosed up by not executing the cure post-Destiny, pre-Nimrod? If she did her No New Mutants thing, doesn't that eliminate the need for Orchis? And no Orchis, no Nimrod, no AI issues in the future?
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Jan 6, 2022 02:11
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in one of the old, pre-claremont stories xavier knocked out a sentinel with telepathy. this was never explained or mentioned again.
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Jan 6, 2022 03:08
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Chucks' "telepathy" tends to be loosey goosey when you need to stick him in an action scene, much like magnetism when you need Magneto to solve any problem that can't be fixed by moving around metal
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Jan 6, 2022 04:10
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BIG WIFE
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Jan 6, 2022 04:41
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I still want to know who was in the second failed assassination team that Krakoa hired besides Technet.
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Jan 6, 2022 04:48
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Ah, I don't mind telepathy being able to do some poo poo to machines -- you can easily handwave it as some sort of electrostatic overload from raw telepathic power -- but it's just gonna be weird if no other book remembers that this is a thing and simply continues to have telepaths be helpless against robots forever. Maybe it's a high-level skill that only Xavier can pull off, until someone forgets again that he can do this.
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Jan 6, 2022 05:02
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Canonical ubermensch telepath probably also has some dots in related skills. Dude goes fugue state and can start taking apart god-robots like they're defective Roombas. Also it's funny that Nimrod's core strength is a kid's "Nu-uh, I have an anti-___ shield which protects me."
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Jan 6, 2022 05:32
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I interpreted it as nimrod has the human brain of that doctor dude from orchis (you could see it in the center of the exploded view panel). That brain controls Nimrod's body, every part of it. So Chuck made the brain make the body do an exploded view of itself
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Jan 6, 2022 06:03
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There's also some precedent for Nimrod being sufficiently advanced that he's not quite 100% machine anymore. I remember that was a factor in the big fight scene back in the day when Rogue got punted through the Siege Perilous.
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Jan 6, 2022 07:49
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Is Emma's hostility towards Moira something new or an older thing?
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Jan 6, 2022 08:34
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Synthbuttrange posted:Is Emma's hostility towards Moira something new or an older thing? She said when she got the mind dump that she saw something Xavier overlooked. What she probably saw was that Moira wanted to cure all mutants.
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Jan 6, 2022 08:37
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danbanana posted:Yeah her motivations and plans are... Not Well Defined and at this point full of holes. Also she really hosed up by not executing the cure post-Destiny, pre-Nimrod? If she did her No New Mutants thing, doesn't that eliminate the need for Orchis? And no Orchis, no Nimrod, no AI issues in the future? Yeah, I think Inferno really needed to clearly define what Moira's goal is. So her extra lives have led her to the conclusion that humans and/or machines will inevitably eradicate mutants, so she wants to wipe out the X-gene so that would-be mutants would instead be human, and have a... 50/50 chance of surviving the war against AI? I think?
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Jan 6, 2022 09:30
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Also everyone'd better hope Storm doesnt find out that thing is still around.
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Jan 6, 2022 12:21
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That was a boring lot of nothing. Charles and Erik are still on the council. Everyone on the council knows but nothing has changed because everyone on the council are already secretive untrustworthy arseholes. I don't care about Moira so, her being in "no place" or nowhere to be found cancels out. Erik is still being drawn like his face is 80 and the guy who towed asteroids across space and jumpstarted the core of a planet ... got chumped playing second fiddle to Xavier. bah
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Jan 6, 2022 12:25
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Doug continues to be the best boy. I’m glad they were more subtle with the changes in the power dynamic of the council, instead of just blowing the whole thing up. It’s much more fractured without being outright antagonistic towards each other.
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Jan 6, 2022 14:02
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I love and respect that Destiny practically said "if we fight Doug, we WILL get owned" Hickman really loves the New Mutants, and I'm here for it.
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Jan 6, 2022 14:05
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danbanana posted:Yeah her motivations and plans are... Not Well Defined and at this point full of holes. Also she really hosed up by not executing the cure post-Destiny, pre-Nimrod? If she did her No New Mutants thing, doesn't that eliminate the need for Orchis? And no Orchis, no Nimrod, no AI issues in the future? Really no part of Moira's plan as currently presented requires anything like Krakoa, so there must be more to it than that. If she just wanted to create a mutant cure she had years and years to do it pre-POX/HOX. I'm thinking her end goal might not be an end to mutants but an artificially enforced equilibrium between mutants and humanity; maybe her "scalpel" cure ONLY works on children. Maybe she made all existing mutants immortal at the cost of there never being any more mutant offspring, so that Homo Superior can never evolutionarily supplant Homo Sapiens (which obviates the need for the rise of Homo Novissimus*}. Not "No more mutants", but "No more mutants." *This has already failed because of Omega Sentinel, but Moira doesn't know that yet. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 14:44 on Jan 6, 2022 |
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Jan 6, 2022 14:39
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Really no part of Moira's plan as currently presented requires anything like Krakoa, so there must be more to it than that. If she just wanted to create a mutant cure she had years and years to do it pre-POX/HOX. She explicitly states it was kids-only, so there was definitely something to the idea of MORE there, limiting the population to the current generation. Also remember that Krakoa (and resurrection) were not Moira ideas. In the last issue of HoXPoX, her journal attributes those to Xavier. But to your point... How does resurrection gently caress with her plan? If mutants are immortal, "no more" is moot. E: And lol at her probable reaction to the Third Law.
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Jan 6, 2022 14:46
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danbanana posted:She explicitly states it was kids-only, so there was definitely something to the idea of MORE there, limiting the population to the current generation. I think, viewed on that level, both Krakoa and a cure that prevents the birth of more mutant children make sense from Moira's perspective. Krakoa will become a walled garden, separate from humanity, living forever but never growing or supplanting humanity. Charles and Xavier thought she was bringing them mutant utopia, but she was actually bringing them mutant abdication. With no more (mutant) children, mutants literally cannot evolve*. Humans win the evolutionary race by default, but mutants don't have to die to achieve it. The secret Moira was trying to hide from the Council was that mutants always lose; Charles and Eric think this time will be different, and that mutants will win, but Moira only intends that this time mutants get to lose gracefully. I'm not saying that it's a good plan. In fact, it's a plan that's literally already failed. But I think it's a plausible plan that fits the facts we have been given. It explains the Krakoa era's thematic fascination with childbirth and child-rearing. It also explains why there's such a strict ban on clones. *Which fits Moira's diary entries; while Resurrection was Charles's idea, Moira approved of it. What she didn't approve of was bringing Sinister on board, because Sinister's chimeras and clones offer an evolutionary path other than procreation
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Jan 6, 2022 15:40
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Good point on Sinister. But there's still a giant hole in that plan which is: she already tried the separate mutantdom-from-humanity plan and they still sent a bunch of sentinels to kill them all (Life 5, the Faraway life). I guess you could say her "plan" here included some concession to humanity that they wouldn't be replaced but there's still an island of potentially millions of superpowered, immortal beings to contend with. I guess in the Marvel context of "people hate the X-Men but not the Fantastic Four because of what the X-Men represent longterm," this makes sense. But the Sue and Co. don't have resurrection protocols... I dunno. There's just some holes here and remain questions for me about what the actual goal was. Especially in light of Moira knowing about things like Dominions and the far-future "evolving" of humanity.
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Jan 6, 2022 15:53
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Moira's real plan was building Doug's self-confidence and she succeeded
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Jan 6, 2022 16:16
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This has been such a great era for Doug and he deserves every bit of it.
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Jan 6, 2022 16:26
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danbanana posted:Wait. I don't see why they don't keep using Orchis to their own ends, they have a nigh impregnable base orbiting the sun, a Master Mold, and no survivors that witnessed anything.
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Jan 6, 2022 16:36
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Jiro posted:I don't see why they don't keep using Orchis to their own ends, they have a nigh impregnable base orbiting the sun, a Master Mold, and no survivors that witnessed anything. Very spoiler-heavy Xplain ep with Hickman confirms your thing: https://www.xplainthexmen.com/2022/01/bonus-inferno/ (I'm only a few minutes in but he talks about that almost immediately.)
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Jan 6, 2022 16:41
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Incidentally, Jay tweeted that there's some bot that took an article about that interview and copied it but changed words to synonyms which led to some hilarity: https://twitter.com/NotLasers/status/1478913112363483138?s=20 https://twitter.com/NotLasers/status/1478915214045286404?s=20
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Jan 6, 2022 17:38
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Re-reading the Morrison era of New X-Men, I've noticed that often how straight-forward the story text is, has a lot to with how realistic the art is. If the art tends to the abstract or is a less traditional comic style, a lot of the dialogue feels dreamy, on the border of metaphor when good, but sometimes just disjointed, and that all the scenes are montages wherein sometimes I was left to decide between what happened between one panel and the next. But if the art is more traditional, the storytelling is more direct and the tie between panels is usually tighter Was this maybe the artists who tend toward the realistic re-scripting Morrison, or is the artist choice based on how tight the storytelling is going to be, I wonder. Has anyone talked about this?
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Jan 6, 2022 19:16
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Rick posted:Re-reading the Morrison era of New X-Men, I've noticed that often how straight-forward the story text is, has a lot to with how realistic the art is. If the art tends to the abstract or is a less traditional comic style, a lot of the dialogue feels dreamy, on the border of metaphor when good, but sometimes just disjointed, and that all the scenes are montages wherein sometimes I was left to decide between what happened between one panel and the next. But if the art is more traditional, the storytelling is more direct and the tie between panels is usually tighter That's an interesting observation, considering Morrison has stated that Arkham Asylum was envisioned as a Bolland style piece, rather than Dave McKean's murky, painterly approach.
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Jan 6, 2022 20:39
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one interesting bit from the Jay/Miles Hickman interviews: Petra and Sway were only supposed to be figments of Vulcan's imagination, which explains how they could have been "resurrected" despite dying even before Thunderbird. as part of a last-minute rewrite, Hickman accidentally gave Havok dialogue that refers to them as though they really are alive, creating a continuity error that future writers may or may not ever resolve anyway, looks like Ewing will be picking up the Vulcan/mind-tampering plotline in some fashion https://twitter.com/Marvel/status/1479151200348033026
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Jan 6, 2022 20:53
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Oh yes Magneto! Planet Arrako is his baby and tbh it fits his abrasive personality better than Krakoa. Storm, Sunspot and Mags is a lot of arrogance being thrown around I hope there's fireworks!
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Jan 6, 2022 21:40
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The Inferno part of the Xplain interview includes a possible answer to one of my story holes: As previously mentioned by him, Hickman wanted Rogue involved but had to cut her for time/space. He reveals that her original role was that SHE was going to be the one who resurrected Destiny, after stealing Emma's powers and using Cerebro. That makes a ton more sense than Emma's motivation of... not being told about Moira. Though I also think it's kind of lazy for a writer to go back to "Rogue was raised by Mystique/Destiny so she loves them" because Carey did his damnedest to settle all that poo poo.
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Jan 6, 2022 22:40
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danbanana posted:As previously mentioned by him, Hickman wanted Rogue involved but had to cut her for time/space. He reveals that her original role was that SHE was going to be the one who resurrected Destiny, after stealing Emma's powers and using Cerebro. That makes a ton more sense than Emma's motivation of... not being told about Moira. Though I also think it's kind of lazy for a writer to go back to "Rogue was raised by Mystique/Destiny so she loves them" because Carey did his damnedest to settle all that poo poo. Except it was Hope who resurrected Destiny, after being fooled by Mystique disguised as Charles. That said, regarding Emma's role and motivation, in addition to being offended she was left out of the secret and also discovering Moira was hiding her true motivations, Emma likely is a true believer in Krakoa. For all her moral shades of grey, she ultimately does care about mutant children, so seeing them have a home where they can grow up free without fear of death is a dream come true for her. She's smart enough to know that even if Moira was fully onboard with Krakoa, her mutant power means that her unexpected death could completely undo any progress they had achieved. So, she took care of it by pointing Mystique and Destiny at Moira, giving them the means to undo that specific threat.
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Jan 6, 2022 23:00
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:I think, viewed on that level, both Krakoa and a cure that prevents the birth of more mutant children make sense from Moira's perspective. Krakoa will become a walled garden, separate from humanity, living forever but never growing or supplanting humanity. Charles and Xavier thought she was bringing them mutant utopia, but she was actually bringing them mutant abdication. With no more (mutant) children, mutants literally cannot evolve*. Humans win the evolutionary race by default, but mutants don't have to die to achieve it. The secret Moira was trying to hide from the Council was that mutants always lose; Charles and Eric think this time will be different, and that mutants will win, but Moira only intends that this time mutants get to lose gracefully. This... makes a lot of sense, and you can basically see all the parts of it within the text of the comic, going back to the first issue where resurrection is actively detrimental to the assaults on Orchis because the X-Men can't learn from their mistakes. I wish this had been a little more clearly presented in the comic, though.
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Jan 6, 2022 23:15
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Thank God it is over.
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Jan 6, 2022 23:40
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I'm kinda curious if the Sentinels are ever going to interact with the other synthetic intelligences, because they seem like a natural ally for Ultron (who would 110% try to backstab them and take control) while at the same time you could have guys like Machine Man or Vision working with Doug and Warlock to do... whatever they're trying to do, I guess. Or is that a little too much synergy? I mean it's not like Ultron is doing anything more important right now, with Aaron being convinced that loving Mephisto of all people is somehow a cooler Avengers villain
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Jan 7, 2022 01:06
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They can't bring Stack on board until Act 3: With NEXTWAVE For All.
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Jan 7, 2022 01:13
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OnimaruXLR posted:I'm kinda curious if the Sentinels are ever going to interact with the other synthetic intelligences, because they seem like a natural ally for Ultron (who would 110% try to backstab them and take control) while at the same time you could have guys like Machine Man or Vision working with Doug and Warlock to do... whatever they're trying to do, I guess. If X-Men wasn't an ongoing story that has to continue indefinitely, I'd say the ultimate solution to the human/machine/mutant conflict is Doug, who is a humant mutant who frequently bonds with a machine mutant and is at the very heart of the Krakoan problem. I suppose it still could be crucial to the resolute of Hickman X-men. It's odd how little Warlock has shown up, given that he is another intelligent machine.
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Jan 7, 2022 02:03
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https://twitter.com/kierongillen/status/1479114949586681862?s=20
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Jan 7, 2022 02:53
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When Kieron said that he picked this up because working on creator owned books was too much to deal with during the pandemic, I felt that. I decided to finally finish reading the original New Mutants and moving from Blevins as the regular penciller to Liefeld is just the most jarring "welcome to the nineties". It's simultaneously a drastic shift in the artwork and tone, going from a long, plotty story about the New Mutants in Asgard dealing with a large cast of established characters to "here's a new character! here's a new character! they're edgy! they're sharp!". Anyway, here's what Bird-Brain would look like if drawn by Rob Liefeld. It's an image specifically designed to revolt me. 
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Jan 7, 2022 03:25
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Rick posted:Was this maybe the artists who tend toward the realistic re-scripting Morrison, or is the artist choice based on how tight the storytelling is going to be, I wonder. Has anyone talked about this? Morrison has always had this aspect to his comics where things happen between panels and pages that the reader is supposed to imagine or piece together, no matter who the artist is. It can be cool or frustrating depending on the story.
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Jan 7, 2022 03:36
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Cloks posted:Blevins Hot Take: a Top 10 All-Time X-Artist.
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Jan 7, 2022 04:39
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