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Cyrano4747 posted:Do the policy makers realize this? I mean, ignore the current policy maker in chief, I'm talking about the run of the mill Senators and the like. Because every time the Saudis come up someone is there talking about the importance of their oil for both our economy and the international economy. It would be nearly impossible to tell from the outside. Public statements either adjacent to the topic, or even on the nose aren't necessarily a great indicator of understanding.
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Oct 10, 2019 17:48
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Cythereal posted:They did, actually. Psh. Silly historian with this "Iraq" talk. Everyone knows WW2 in Europe was fought in France, with maybe a little bit in N. Africa.
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Oct 10, 2019 17:58
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Mortabis posted:Yeah no. I get that the Saudis are very much Not Nice People, but neither are the Iranians. when has the morality of a given regime ever been a condition for US support?
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Oct 10, 2019 19:25
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Mortabis posted:I think a better way to think about this is value over replacement. That’s more in line with our history of none judicial killings than Saudi chopping blocks. We really gotta meet in the middle to find our similarities.
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Oct 10, 2019 19:31
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LingcodKilla posted:That’s more in line with our history of none judicial killings than Saudi chopping blocks. The judiciary has no place in the military chain of command. You can call them war crimes or murder or even terrorism or whatever edgy invective you want, but non judicial killings is extremely dumb and bears no relationship to how our military command structure has ever woskred.
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Oct 10, 2019 19:45
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Cat Army 
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:when has the morality of a given regime ever been a condition for US support? If you consider "honors property rights" to be a facet of a regime's morality, as I do, then it has been a substantial consideration in the past. As a matter of picking between two sides which might both be bad.
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Oct 10, 2019 19:58
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Mortabis posted:If you consider "honors property rights" to be a facet of a regime's morality, as I do, then it has been a substantial consideration in the past. As a matter of picking between two sides which might both be bad. Peak Cold War capitalism thread post.
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Oct 10, 2019 20:02
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mlmp08 posted:Peak Cold War capitalism thread post. Was it tillerson that explicitly said recently that “pro democracy country” means “supports the US”?
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Oct 10, 2019 20:07
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The Iron Rose posted:The judiciary has no place in the military chain of command. You can call them war crimes or murder or even terrorism or whatever edgy invective you want, but non judicial killings is extremely dumb and bears no relationship to how our military command structure has ever woskred. Tell that to the Seals. Also I was just pointing out Americans in general like to hang em high and apparently Iranians do too. Crab Dad fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 20:33
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The Iron Rose posted:The judiciary has no place in the military chain of command. You can call them war crimes or murder or even terrorism or whatever edgy invective you want, but non judicial killings is extremely dumb and bears no relationship to how our military command structure has ever woskred. lol what Do me a favor and stay the gently caress out of GIP. McNally fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 20:37
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The Iron Rose posted:The judiciary has no place in the military chain of command. You can call them war crimes or murder or even terrorism or whatever edgy invective you want, but non judicial killings is extremely dumb and bears no relationship to how our military command structure has ever woskred. no one tell this guy i'm wearing my old JAG t shirt today
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Oct 10, 2019 20:39
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bewbies posted:no one tell this guy i'm wearing my old JAG t shirt today So you're JAGin' off today?
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Oct 10, 2019 20:50
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The Iron Rose posted:The judiciary has no place in the military chain of command. You, uh, are aware that there's an entire military judicial system, right? And that it looks poorly upon non-combat killings? Maybe I"m misreading this badly, in which case you might want to clarify yourself. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 21:21
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Dejan Bimble posted:sorry if this is too much a do my homework for me question, but which engine made the most successful transition from war time use to peace time? TF39/LM2500 to CF6/LM5000/6000.
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Oct 10, 2019 21:43
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The Iron Rose posted:The judiciary has no place in the military chain of command. You can call them war crimes or murder or even terrorism or whatever edgy invective you want, but non judicial killings is extremely dumb and bears no relationship to how our military command structure has ever woskred. You know what, never mind. Looking back at your post history in this thread this seems to be your one hobby horse that you hit on every time it comes up. Do the rest of us a favor and duck out of this thread.
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Oct 10, 2019 21:49
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Dumb question: I've seen some people have started referring to the Su-57 as "Frazor", e.g. here but I can't find any sort of official-looking source for this name. So it is an actual NATO reporting name, some official Russian name, or more simply just some random Internet thing that fooled enough people to become used by journalists?
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Oct 10, 2019 22:03
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Not that Iran isn't an oppressive country, but it has a massive young population and generally does seem to want to be a part of the international community and if the US had made inroads early enough maybe they would've liberalized somewhat away from their worst aspects.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:09
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Cyrano4747 posted:You, uh, are aware that there's an entire military judicial system, right? And that it looks poorly upon non-combat killings? Cyrano4747 posted:You know what, never mind. Looking back at your post history in this thread this seems to be your one hobby horse that you hit on every time it comes up. I'm just going to repost my post from a few months back on it The Iron Rose posted:The judiciary has no place in the military chain of command. There's no such thing as an extra judicial targeted killing. not saying JAGs don't exist folks. Civilian judges can't issue death warrents to give our assassination programs legal legitimacy. If that's enough to get my kicked out of the thread then lol sure The Iron Rose fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 22:11
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Raenir Salazar posted:Not that Iran isn't an oppressive country, but it has a massive young population and generally does seem to want to be a part of the international community and if the US had made inroads early enough maybe they would've liberalized somewhat away from their worst aspects. That's the flip side to engaging with lovely regimes. The US got in bed with Taiwan and S. Korea for the coldest of Cold War logic and supported the countries leadership when they were at their absolute shittiest and most repressive. However, there is also a good argument that the rising standards of living largely made possible by getting tied into US trade networks and the increased exposure to ideas like freedom of expression, due process, etc. from people interacting with Americans, going to American schools and such created the pro-democracy movements that ultimately reformed those countries into what they are today. There is a powerful argument for engagement, but it can also lead to supporting some really awful poo poo.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:13
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Cat Mattress posted:Dumb question: I've seen some people have started referring to the Su-57 as "Frazor", e.g. here but I can't find any sort of official-looking source for this name. So it is an actual NATO reporting name, some official Russian name, or more simply just some random Internet thing that fooled enough people to become used by journalists? If nobody posts an answer, I'll see if I can dig something up in a couple of weeks.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:17
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The Iron Rose posted:If that's enough to get my kicked out of the thread then lol sure Not just out of this thread.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:18
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The Iron Rose posted:I'm just going to repost my post from a few months back on it Like no seriously, this is so hilariously bad I don't know how someone gets to this point and says "yeah, seems reasonable." Edit: Like Gordon Gekko and Dick Cheney were thrown into Seth Brundle's teleportation pod and on the other end out came Iron Rose. "War crimes, for lack of a better word, are good." McNally fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 22:25
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Cyrano4747 posted:That's the flip side to engaging with lovely regimes. The US got in bed with Taiwan and S. Korea for the coldest of Cold War logic and supported the countries leadership when they were at their absolute shittiest and most repressive. However, there is also a good argument that the rising standards of living largely made possible by getting tied into US trade networks and the increased exposure to ideas like freedom of expression, due process, etc. from people interacting with Americans, going to American schools and such created the pro-democracy movements that ultimately reformed those countries into what they are today. How much did us helping the brits in the 50s fuckthings up for us during the revolution? Was there a chance if we handt helped they could have been less pissed at us? Im assuming they would still hate us for supporting iraq during the iran iraq war but maybe not as much?
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Oct 10, 2019 22:31
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McNally posted:Like no seriously, this is so hilariously bad I don't know how someone gets to this point and says "yeah, seems reasonable." I really don't understand how that in any way implies that I like war crimes. Please explain it to me because as far as I can see it's literally just saying that there's no role for civilian judges. I literally and genuinely, in good faith, do not understand what's so objectionable about this. There's lots of other really good arguments against targeted killing that don't rely on incomplete understandings of the judiciary. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 10, 2019 22:44
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Oct 10, 2019 22:45
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The Iron Rose posted:I really don't understand how that in any way implies that I like war crimes. Please explain it to me because as far as I can see it's literally just saying that there's no role for civilian judges. I literally and genuinely, in good faith, do not understand what's so objectionable about this. There's lots of other really good arguments against targeted killing that don't rely on incomplete understandings of the judiciary. It's not just this one post. It's an entire body of posting, both in this thread and elsewhere, that war crimes are okay worded carefully within the frame of civilian judges being separate from the military chain of command so that you can play a stupid gotcha game. It's a stupid game and I'm not going to play it. Instead I'm just going to call you a war crimes apologist and move on.
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Oct 10, 2019 22:47
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Isn't it a legitimate legal issue where a number of American journos in the Mid-East are being targeted by drones for doing interviews with ISIS commanders and whenever they try to go through the courts to demand due process the courts are like 
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Oct 10, 2019 22:47
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Raenir Salazar posted:Isn't it a legitimate legal issue where a number of American journos in the Mid-East are being targeted by drones for doing interviews with ISIS commanders and whenever they try to go through the courts to demand due process the courts are like It's a huge issue and why assassination lists make very little sense outside of a sustained conventional conflict, which the war on terror is not. Edit: the remedy this by the way is to surrender at a us embassy which as you might imagine is a big ask. Another example of how woefully incomplete legal structures surrounding modern warfare are. McNally posted:It's not just this one post. It's an entire body of posting, both in this thread and elsewhere, that war crimes are okay worded carefully within the frame of civilian judges being separate from the military chain of command so that you can play a stupid gotcha game. It's a stupid game and I'm not going to play it. Instead I'm just going to call you a war crimes apologist and move on. That's fair enough. I view it as "US law is way shittier than you think and the less you rely on it the better off your arguments are." Or put another way, lots of things that should be war crimes aren't actually illegal. Argue against the morals, not against the law when it's not on your side and never has been. The Iron Rose fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Oct 10, 2019 |
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Oct 10, 2019 22:53
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Why didn't russia make an f-117 knock off instead of proceeding to a 5th gen fighter?
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Oct 11, 2019 00:17
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Stairmaster posted:Why didn't russia make an f-117 knock off instead of proceeding to a 5th gen fighter? What does 1980s Russia need with a stealth bomber than can drop 2 large but nonnuclear bombs? Where would they use it without triggering a nuclear war, in which case should’ve just used a nuclear air launched cruise missile?
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Oct 11, 2019 00:20
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Stairmaster posted:Why didn't russia make an f-117 knock off instead of proceeding to a 5th gen fighter? They tried. Fly-by-wire and computer aided design flummoxed them. I remember reading a retrospective about 20 years ago written by a Russian general that posited computer illiteracy had just as much a hand in the end of the Soviet Union as the other generally-accepted causes/theories. One line I remember specifically was something like "a Western child with an electronic toy had a better understanding of computers than we could hope to teach a Russian soldier in ten years' time." An F-117 without FBW would be a horrible deathtrap that'd make the F-104 look like a Cessna 182 in comparison. BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Oct 11, 2019 |
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Oct 11, 2019 00:26
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And yet Russia mandates computer science as a basic school subject, and had twice as many students take the AP computer science exam equivalent between 2005 and 2015 than the USA. The only big difference is that there isn't a Russian silicon valley to foster that interest into high paying tech sector jobs. But Russia has understood and directly addressed that deficiency in some form for ~30 years now.
Mazz fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Oct 11, 2019 |
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Oct 11, 2019 00:41
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I'm kinda tickled with the thought that nationally mobilized compsci is the early 21st century equivalent of the early 20th century 'every american knows how to shoot and drive'.
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Oct 11, 2019 00:46
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BIG HEADLINE posted:They tried. Fly-by-wire and computer aided design flummoxed them. I remember reading a retrospective about 20 years ago written by a Russian general that posited computer illiteracy had just as much a hand in the end of the Soviet Union as the other generally-accepted causes/theories. I imagine it woild end up a lot like the flying wing northrop tried where everyone went "yeah this is awesome but scaring the gently caress out of 1940s US aircraft people"
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Oct 11, 2019 01:05
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Yeah, that General Cardenas clip of him describing how he had to put in into a flat spin tumbling rear end over end just to *try* to stabilize it was  material.
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Oct 11, 2019 01:11
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I imagine the flying wing would be more stable than the f117 without fbw too just because of how much heavier it would be so...yeah...have fun with that thought
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Oct 11, 2019 01:15
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The real scandal should be that an algorithm is putting those journalists on the kill lists for the robots to execute. Something slouches towards Bethlehem etc. I tell you hwat if the military becomes automated I don't think there's anything that will save democracy. Most people aren't aware that in the color revolutions the orders to machine-gun the crowds *were issued* in East Germany and Romania. In East Germany the soldiers refused the orders and in Romania the regular army and the secret police had a two week gun battle in Bucharest. If the elites in those societies had had robot soldiers we might have a very different take on non-violent resistance. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Oct 11, 2019 |
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Oct 11, 2019 01:54
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Arglebargle III posted:The real scandal should be that an algorithm is putting those journalists on the kill lists for the robots to execute. Something slouches towards Bethlehem etc. Even during THE DAYS THAT NOTHING AT ALL HAPPENED IN TIENANMEN SQUARE the initial troops deployed to gun down protestors refused to open fire. They had to bus in troops from other areas of the country to murder protestors.
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Oct 11, 2019 02:13
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McNally posted:lol what I'm so glad I'm not the only one who frequently confuses this with the CE thread
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Oct 11, 2019 03:45
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Arglebargle III posted:The real scandal should be that an algorithm is putting those journalists on the kill lists for the robots to execute. Something slouches towards Bethlehem etc. Well now I want book recommendations on this.
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