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Furnaceface posted:I come from a family that has many (now retired) police. They all say the same thing about the most recent incidents; these police arent trained the same way they were when it comes to peaceful resolution. A lot of the blame comes from the increasing militarization of police forces as deadly force and quick judgement/resolution is much higher priority and is in fact being taught at the very basic level in police forces across this country. While I dont doubt that you got this training, it is clearly not being taught to everyone or at least not getting put in the proper set of priorities. The irony is that I was a military policeman. And whether they're getting the training or not is secondary to the fact that a guy who's got it in his head that he's a yee-haw unfuckwithable cowboy with the state's permission to snap and go hamshit on the first one of those dirty scrotes to disrespect his authoritah isn't going to spend a moment's thought about his training or the law or any of the other things that would make his job possible. He's just going to pull out his bang-bang stick and make 'em kneel. I don't know James Forcillo so I can't accuse him of being a guy like that, and I'll stop there.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:25
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Dallan Invictus posted:Ironically, I think that was this guy: There was an incident in that area back in the '70s which is better described as "guy who shot a couple of cops", albeit after kidnapping them at a traffic stop and driving them out into the woods to execute them.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:25
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Furnaceface posted:I come from a family that has many (now retired) police. They all say the same thing about the most recent incidents; these police arent trained the same way they were when it comes to peaceful resolution. A lot of the blame comes from the increasing militarization of police forces as deadly force and quick judgement/resolution is much higher priority and is in fact being taught at the very basic level in police forces across this country. While I dont doubt that you got this training, it is clearly not being taught to everyone or at least not getting put in the proper set of priorities. To back this up, the mentality behind this article, about what is generally believe to have been a completely justified shooting, should be considered incredibly instructive: http://lawofficer.com/2008/12/10/officer-down-the-peter-soulis-incident/
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Jan 25, 2016 20:26
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There are places in the world where cops don't even carry guns, do you guys think that could work here?
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Jan 25, 2016 20:27
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flakeloaf posted:The irony is that I was a military policeman. There's a point that gets trotted out during these debates about how the military have much stricter ROE than civilian law enforcement, but we're giving the cops the same equipment as the military. The Duggler posted:There are places in the world where cops don't even carry guns, do you guys think that could work here? Blue sky hypothetical, or practically speaking. Because the political climate and the power the Canadian Police Association has makes the latter a complete impossibility. The minute this showed up on anyone's radar the CPA would be pouring millions into lobbying and public awareness campaigns. Whoever suggested it would see their political career turned to ash before their eyes. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 20:30
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The Duggler posted:There are places in the world where cops don't even carry guns, do you guys think that could work here? The places where cops don't carry guns are places that tend to have very low levels of gun ownership in society, like Britain and Japan which can control that very easily because they are islands. We share the longest border in the world with the world's largest source of privately owned guns, and that border is pretty porous. I don't think we'll ever have the level of gun crime that Mexico does, but until the US figures out some form of meaningful gun control our police officers do need to carry. That being said, they also obviously need to be trained how not to shoot people. Frankly, the role of a police officer should be to put themselves in harm's way to protect civilians. That's how we think of them. But instead, they're trained to protect their own lives at all costs, up to and including shooting unarmed people because they got scared. They need to be better trained how to deal with their fear, because they signed up for a job knowing that it had the potential that at some point they would be put in a situation where they will fear for their life, and, importantly, in that situation they still have to remain calm and not shoot people unless absolutely necessary. It seems like right now the number one thing police get trained to do is to protect their own lives at all costs, when frankly I think they should be being trained to protect other people's lives at all costs.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:32
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How about just don't be a criminal, don't stand close to criminals, and don't be "mentally ill" or what ever sjw's call people who make bad choices these days?
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Jan 25, 2016 20:33
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The Duggler posted:There are places in the world where cops don't even carry guns, do you guys think that could work here? I don't really think so. Canada has nearly five times the guns per capita of the United Kingdom, and about fifty times that of Japan. Edit: beaten by Vyelkin like a victim of police brutality
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Jan 25, 2016 20:33
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vyelkin posted:The places where cops don't carry guns are places that tend to have very low levels of gun ownership in society, like Britain and Japan which can control that very easily because they are islands. We share the longest border in the world with the world's largest source of privately owned guns, and that border is pretty porous. I don't think we'll ever have the level of gun crime that Mexico does, but until the US figures out some form of meaningful gun control our police officers do need to carry.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:38
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What does any of that have to do with giving the average patrol officer the ability to take a life? ETF exists for a reason, they're armed and trained to use their weapons properly. If there's a reason for an officer to be using lethal force, perhaps it should be left to them? So far we see (in TPS at least) that front line officers tend to use their sidearms as a method of de-escalation (ineffectually), rather than say, actual de-escalation techniques. Perhaps if they didn't have that option they would instead take the time and effort to attempt to de-escalate the situation. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 20:43
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So wait was Yatim mentally ill, on bad research chems, or both? I'm seeing both brought up here.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:44
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infernal machines posted:What does any of that have to do with giving the average patrol officer the ability to take a life? ETF exists for a reason, they're armed and trained to use their weapons properly. If there's a reason for an officer to be using lethal force, perhaps it should be left to them? The vast majority of officers don't use their guns often, and when they do they're justified to have done so. Identifying and removing guys like this from the force before they can cause damage or take a life is probably a better idea than removing that tool from front line officers.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:48
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https://www.facebook.com/cbcnews/videos/10153956510314604/ tl;dr Defense lawyer raising jury bias on verdict 
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Jan 25, 2016 20:48
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:So wait was Yatim mentally ill, on bad research chems, or both? I'm seeing both brought up here. He was definitely on bad research chems, most articles are reporting MDMA, but the autopsy shows a different research stim. I believe it was discovered that he also had a history of depression or something similar. Whether he was having a manic episode, psychotic break, or a bad trip isn't especially relevant to the justification for killing him though.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:49
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Jordan7hm posted:The vast majority of officers don't use their guns often, and when they do they're justified to have done so. [Citation Needed] Seriously, the whole background to the debate over this case is that the TPS do this a lot, and perhaps it is not actually justified.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:51
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jm20 posted:https://www.facebook.com/cbcnews/videos/10153956510314604/ Boo hoo.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:51
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Baronjutter posted:How about just don't be a criminal, don't stand close to criminals, and don't be "mentally ill" or what ever sjw's call people who make bad choices these days? If your next city in C:S doesnt have a police station and prison on every block then you have let me down. Jordan7hm posted:The vast majority of officers don't use their guns often, and when they do they're justified to have done so. The problem is that we are encountering extreme resistance from the police themselves to remove these guys. They are going so far as to lie under oath in order to protect their own, in the name of brotherhood or some dumb bullshit.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:54
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infernal machines posted:What does any of that have to do with giving the average patrol officer the ability to take a life? ETF exists for a reason, they're armed and trained to use their weapons properly. If there's a reason for an officer to be using lethal force, perhaps it should be left to them? Otherwise I don't disagree that de-escalation techniques are just as important, but when someone literally goes out cop-hunting, they shouldn't be completely outgunned.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:55
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Baronjutter posted:don't be "mentally ill" or what ever sjw's call people who make bad choices these days? Not sure if this is an ironic post but yikes dude
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Jan 25, 2016 20:58
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Eej posted:Not sure if this is an ironic post but yikes dude I think it was a bad attempt at being ironic/edgy.
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Jan 25, 2016 20:59
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Furnaceface posted:The problem is that we are encountering extreme resistance from the police themselves to remove these guys. They are going so far as to lie under oath in order to protect their own, in the name of brotherhood or some dumb bullshit. That is a very different problem though. Like in 2013 tps officers pulled out their guns 1037 times and discharged them all of 12 times at people. The weapons are intended primarily as a last line of defense and seem to be used mostly as a deterrent. The most common weapon associated with use of force incidents that they encounter are firearms, by far.
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Jan 25, 2016 21:02
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Jordan7hm posted:Like in 2013 tps officers pulled out their guns 1037 times  That's one in five. Annually.
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Jan 25, 2016 21:04
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Yes, because they're being used in place of other de-escalation techniques. Do you believe that 20% of all police interactions require the threat of lethal force to resolve?
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Jan 25, 2016 21:06
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I've been out of the game a while now, but I don't think I know five guys who've pulled handguns period.
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Jan 25, 2016 21:07
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Jordan7hm posted:That is a very different problem though. "Use of force incidents" - does this mean when police use force, or when other people are trying to use force against police? I think police for the most part should not have guns, or shouldn't have them on their person at all times. They should only be used when a life is in immediate danger. And a guy holding a knife 20ft away from a group of cops is not immediate danger. How many cops get killed in a year in Canada? There was that big shooting spree in NB a few years back, aside from that it seems like it'd be under 10, by my guess.
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Jan 25, 2016 21:07
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Jordan7hm posted:That is a very different problem though. Drawing your weapon as a deterrent is still stupid because it is more likely to cause an escalation. This should not be a police officers go-to move in every situation. Like I said, its a failure at the basic level and they need to start stressing this at the academy to new students.
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Jan 25, 2016 21:18
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Astute National Post commenters are very concerned that our prime minister is importing misogynist Muslim refugees to our wonderful country which is oh-so-respectful of women. They also believe he is "feminine", a "girlyman", and that raising kids to be feminist is "child abuse".
Juul-Whip fucked around with this message at 21:30 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 21:24
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infernal machines posted:Yes, because they're being used in place of other de-escalation techniques. Do you believe that 20% of all police interactions require the threat of lethal force to resolve? In fairness, that is on 1k incidents of drawn weapons per year for 5k officers. It would closer to say 20% had a thing over the course of a year instead of 20% of interactions. It seems to be just about as bad to me when you realize how much of their day to day is traffic, drunks and domestic calls.
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Jan 25, 2016 21:47
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i lust for cop death unironically
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Jan 25, 2016 22:02
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ocrumsprug posted:In fairness, that is on 1k incidents of drawn weapons per year for 5k officers. It would closer to say 20% had a thing over the course of a year instead of 20% of interactions. I wonder how diffuse the incidents are. Is it 1 in 5 police officers draws their gun once a year? Does 1 in 50 police officers draw their gun ten times a year? Do just ten police officers out of the entire force draw their guns a hundred times a year? Knowing that would tell us a lot more about whether this is just a few officers who draw their guns way too frequently, or something that most police officers are responsible about and draw their guns once every four or five years.
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Jan 25, 2016 22:11
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vyelkin posted:I wonder how diffuse the incidents are. Is it 1 in 5 police officers draws their gun once a year? Does 1 in 50 police officers draw their gun ten times a year? Do just ten police officers out of the entire force draw their guns a hundred times a year? Knowing that would tell us a lot more about whether this is just a few officers who draw their guns way too frequently, or something that most police officers are responsible about and draw their guns once every four or five years. This sort of nuance is critical, along with correlated details on the nature of the incidents where weapons are drawn. Presumably this data is publicly available, but I'm not sure where to look. VVVTorStar removed article comments completely earlier this month for exactly this reason. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 22:18
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THC posted:Astute National Post commenters are very concerned that our prime minister is importing misogynist Muslim refugees to our wonderful country which is oh-so-respectful of women. They also believe he is "feminine", a "girlyman", and that raising kids to be feminist is "child abuse". Also probably CBC commenters, TorStar commenters, Globe commenters, and Bookcases and Shelves Monthly commenters. Everyone who comments in news website comment sections is either batshit insane or everyone's weird uncle because nobody else gives a poo poo.
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Jan 25, 2016 22:19
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You need to stop treating commenters as the 'other'. There is no better representation of a cross section of Canada's population than a cbc commenter. Canadians are garbage
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Jan 25, 2016 22:26
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infernal machines posted:Yes, because they're being used in place of other de-escalation techniques. Do you believe that 20% of all police interactions require the threat of lethal force to resolve? This is a ridiculous comment. The police engage in significantly more than 5000 interactions over the course of a year.
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Jan 25, 2016 22:34
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Jordan7hm posted:This is a ridiculous comment. The police engage in significantly more than 5000 interactions over the course of a year. Yes it was. Okay, up to 20% of officers feel the need to escalate to a threat of lethal force in at least one interaction per year, how do we determine if that's justifiable? If this is actually just a small number of officers, how are the incidents they're responding to materially different than the average.
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Jan 25, 2016 22:41
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Let's just build a wall along the 49th parallel to keep the guns out. Problem solved.
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Jan 25, 2016 22:46
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infernal machines posted:Yes it was. They're tactical, they're carrying out search / arrest warrants, they're dealing with people who themselves have firearms.... I'm not arguing cops don't need better oversight, but we aren't the states. Guns drawn and pointed a thousand times, shot only 20 times. Maybe guns are an effective de-escalation tool in the vast majority of cases and it's only when dealing with mentally damaged individuals where they stop being effective.
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Jan 25, 2016 22:58
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vyelkin posted:I wonder how diffuse the incidents are. Is it 1 in 5 police officers draws their gun once a year? Does 1 in 50 police officers draw their gun ten times a year? Do just ten police officers out of the entire force draw their guns a hundred times a year? Knowing that would tell us a lot more about whether this is just a few officers who draw their guns way too frequently, or something that most police officers are responsible about and draw their guns once every four or five years. jm20 posted:
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Jan 25, 2016 23:02
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The aricle jm20 posted gives some good perspective, but this is a problem:Jordan7hm posted:Maybe guns are an effective de-escalation tool in the vast majority of cases and it's only when dealing with mentally damaged individuals where they stop being effective. Maybe? Given the cost (i.e. a human life) I'd suggest that "maybe it's a good de-escalation technique" is bullshit. Perhaps, and I'm just speculating here, threatening lethal force is not a good way to de-ecalate anything. If it's being used as such by anyone other than the ETF, it's a problem.
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Jan 25, 2016 23:10
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ITT guns are a deescalation tool
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Jan 25, 2016 23:19
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