CanPol Megathread: Big Changus

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Dukemont: Aug 17, 2005; chocolate microscopes

PT6A posted:

Well, yes, specifically because having only one choice of gin, or whatever basic luxury, doesn't meaningfully help achieve a more equal society. Trying to restrict consumer choice artificially serves no purpose other than to conform to some bizarre idea of what you think socialism is. Let�s say all liquor production in Canada is controlled by a single worker-owned cooperative and the proceeds of labour are redistributed to the workers; there is literally no reason or justification for not allowing that cooperative to produce multiple styles/brands/labels of gin or any other liquor at multiple price points to account for different consumer tastes.

If we're talking about watches, yes, again we could have different styles that compete with one another. Maybe one person likes a digital watch, one person likes a minimalist watch with no decoration around the edge and only hour and minute hands, and another person like a watch with a second hand, a stopwatch, and an alternate timezone face. There's no reason to restrict consumer choice by producing One Watch For Everyone. Allowing for consumer choice and competition between products is not anti-socialist.

I've heard it often said in this very thread that socialism concerns first and foremost the relationship between labour and the means of production, so I'm confused by the present argument that somehow consumer choice is anti-socialist. It does not meaningfully depend on the the relationship between labour and the means of production.

In your example(in bold above) what role does competition play, and is competition even desirable in this situation?

Couldn�t I extend your example to encompass every industry in the country? And in that case, would it be right to talk about competing products and consumer choice in the same sense as under a capitalist system?

# ? Jun 27, 2018 18:52

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# ? May 30, 2024 17:05

flashman: Dec 16, 2003

But you see competition in the free market drives innovation and better products, and furthermore

# ? Jun 27, 2018 18:56

flashman: Dec 16, 2003

I love branding and advertisements

# ? Jun 27, 2018 18:57

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Dukemont posted:

In your example(in bold above) what role does competition play, and is competition even desirable in this situation?

The products compete against each other, the producers -- that is to say, the workers -- do not necessarily, although I don't have a problem where multiple workers' cooperatives were to compete against each other; that would still be socialism.

Competition in that sense is desirable because the lack of competition between products implies that there must be one and only one product to fulfill a given need or want, which is the exact sort of choiceless dystopia critics of socialism use as a boogeyman when trying to turn people against it.

You're using a very, very strange definition of competition indeed if you don't think two products competing against each other is "competition."

# ? Jun 27, 2018 19:02

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

B.C. casinos �laundromats� for proceeds of organized crime: report

quote:

British Columbia�s dysfunctional regulatory regime for casinos helped fuel a perfect storm for large-scale, transnational money laundering and organized crime networks, a report released Tuesday by Attorney General David Eby says.

�Vancouver is a hub for Chinese-based organized crime,� the report, titled Dirty Money, says, but adds that large quantities of illicit drug money also move through Vancouver casinos related to Mexican drug cartels and others, including Middle East organized crime.

�A complex network of criminal alliances has coalesced with underground banks at its centre. Money is laundered from Vancouver into and out of China and to other locations, including Mexico and Colombia,� the report�s author, Peter German found.

Mr. German provided 48 recommendations, including a designated police force and specialized prosecutors to help rein in the problem. He also recommends further investigation into allegations of organized crime penetration of real estate, as well as into vulnerability of the luxury car sector and horse racing.

He noted that as government moves to clean up the casino sector �it should be no surprise that organized crime will move to another sector or methodology. This may be real estate, luxury goods, counterfeit products, or many other enterprises. The only criteria is that the new landing spot be lucrative.�

Mr. German, who acknowledged the work of investigative journalism including reports by The Globe and Mail, The Vancouver Sun, and the CBC, found that �certain Lower Mainland casinos unwittingly served as laundromats for the proceeds of organized crime,� reaching a high point in 2015 when an RCMP investigation uncovered what was described as a �whale� of a money-laundering operation: The River Rock casino had accepted $13.5-million in $20 bills within one month, which police said could be proceeds of crime.

In his 247-page report, he concluded the problem amounted to a collective system failure where �nobody said no.�

However, he noted that government has benefited from the cash transactions, as revenue from casino gambling is the largest revenues stream for the province aside from taxes.

�The combined effects of years of denial, alternate hypotheses and acrimony between entities made for a perfect storm.�

That acrimony was observed between the �dysfunctional� regulatory system in B.C. with the BC Lottery Corp. and the gaming policy and enforcement branch issuing contradictory directives to casino operators.

Mr. German, a former deputy commissioner of both the RCMP and Correctional Service Canada, began his review last September after Mr. Eby retained him to investigate �some serious allegations about widespread, transnational money laundering in gaming facilities in the Lower Mainland.�

Ahead of the release of the report, Mr. Eby said the province had failed to prevent money laundering through its casinos, but that recent reforms may be making a difference on the issue.

In particular, Mr. Eby cited new rules forcing big-money gamblers to disclose the source of their funds, which have led to a dramatic reduction in suspicious cash transactions at casinos.

The attorney general also pointed to last month�s arrest of an international casino money-laundering suspect, Dan Bai Shun Jin, at Richmond�s River Rock Casino.

Mr. Jin faces an arrest warrant in the United States for alleged fraud of over $1.4-million from the state of Nevada. The RCMP also say he is suspected of laundering $855-million through Australian casinos.

On June 13, almost three weeks after his arrest, B.C.�s civil forfeiture office filed a civil suit in B.C. Supreme Court seeking $75,000 in chips from River Rock as well as $805 in American cash seized from Mr. Jin by police.

In February, a Globe and Mail investigation revealed how 17 local residents, most associated with drug trafficking, were effectively parking millions of dollars in Vancouver-area real estate.

Those private lenders issue mortgages and short-term loans, just as banks do, except in cash, likely derived from drug trafficking and other crimes, according to the Globe and Mail report.

Mr. Eby who received the German report in April, has blamed the former BC Liberal government for the money laundering status quo.

Mr. Eby responded by promising measures to �close the loopholes� allowing lenders connected to the fentanyl trade to launder money by granting large cash loans and mortgages to Vancouver-area property owners.

Mr. Eby has also said more federal money is needed to help improve the investigative capacity of police targeting money laundering.

it's real bad folks

# ? Jun 27, 2018 19:05

Postess with the Mostest: Apr 4, 2007; Arabian nights
'neath Arabian moons
A fool off his guard
could fall and fall hard
out there on the dunes

PT6A posted:

The products compete against each other, the producers -- that is to say, the workers -- do not necessarily, although I don't have a problem where multiple workers' cooperatives were to compete against each other; that would still be socialism.

Competition in that sense is desirable because the lack of competition between products implies that there must be one and only one product to fulfill a given need or want, which is the exact sort of choiceless dystopia critics of socialism use as a boogeyman when trying to turn people against it.

You're using a very, very strange definition of competition indeed if you don't think two products competing against each other is "competition."

We would let you choose between original or strawberry Soylent comrade. Lots of choices, top notch choices.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 19:09

Dukemont: Aug 17, 2005; chocolate microscopes

PT6A posted:

The products compete against each other, the producers -- that is to say, the workers -- do not necessarily, although I don't have a problem where multiple workers' cooperatives were to compete against each other; that would still be socialism.

Competition in that sense is desirable because the lack of competition between products implies that there must be one and only one product to fulfill a given need or want, which is the exact sort of choiceless dystopia critics of socialism use as a boogeyman when trying to turn people against it.

You're using a very, very strange definition of competition indeed if you don't think two products competing against each other is "competition."

I don�t see the benefit of multiple cooperatives over one, which is what I was aiming at this entire conversation. Competition between products produced by the same group is a given, I assumed, but there�s no losers in that situation. Instead of making more tequila they�ll make more whiskey or whatever :shrug:

I never claimed that multiple brands and products couldn�t be produced to satisfy people�s tastes, only that competition as understood under capitalism as competition between rival firms/companies is neither necessary nor desirable.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 19:16

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Dukemont posted:

I don�t see the benefit of multiple cooperatives over one, which is what I was aiming at this entire conversation

Well, let's think about it on a small scale then. To stick with booze, let's consider a brewpub where the equipment is co-owned by all the people who work there, and tasks are divided equally as required. Maybe they have different views about the sort of beers they should make compared to another group of people, and the other group of people decides to start a competing co-operatively owned brewpub that makes other beers.

In this case, you have multiple cooperatives competing to provide different products, driving increased quality and more selection for people who want to drink at brewpubs. This is not a flaw to be removed under a socialist system, it is a system by which markets can be allowed to operate without causing the exploitation of labour.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 19:23

StealthArcher: Jan 10, 2010

Vanguardists really do love running circles around talking about their own desired outcome. While, unspokenly, always including the unsubtle implication that they themselves will always be part of the vanguard, and not one of the people in the system that's fair and authoritarian because the vanguard said it was and needed to be.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 19:53

A Typical Goon: Feb 25, 2011

StealthArcher posted:

Vanguardists really do love running circles around talking about their own desired outcome. While, unspokenly, always including the unsubtle implication that they themselves will always be part of the vanguard, and not one of the people in the system that's fair and authoritarian because the vanguard said it was and needed to be.

What is this word salad even supposed to mean

# ? Jun 27, 2018 20:03

Zeeman: May 8, 2007; Say WHAT?! You KNOW that post is wack, homie!

For real, what makes our Supreme Court so different from how politicized the US one is (aside from when Harper tried to appoint Nadon)? Is it just that we don't really pay attention, or we don't mythologize what a bunch of assholes said in the 18th century? Does regional representation or a mandatory retirement age alleviate a lot of the issues?

# ? Jun 27, 2018 20:12

Dukemont: Aug 17, 2005; chocolate microscopes

PT6A posted:

Well, let's think about it on a small scale then. To stick with booze, let's consider a brewpub where the equipment is co-owned by all the people who work there, and tasks are divided equally as required. Maybe they have different views about the sort of beers they should make compared to another group of people, and the other group of people decides to start a competing co-operatively owned brewpub that makes other beers.

In this case, you have multiple cooperatives competing to provide different products, driving increased quality and more selection for people who want to drink at brewpubs. This is not a flaw to be removed under a socialist system, it is a system by which markets can be allowed to operate without causing the exploitation of labour.

This may be workable, but the issue is financing and economics. If one cooperative (brewpub) could be expanded to produce a wider variety of drinks and open new locations more efficiently than an entirely new cooperative starting from scratch, why use public money to finance it? In some situations workers may be able to fund projects themselves, but it wouldn�t always be possible.

Why couldn�t disputes in the single cooperative about what it produced be resolved in a democratic and equitable manner without having to form a new cooperative?

# ? Jun 27, 2018 20:39

StealthArcher: Jan 10, 2010

Dukemont posted:

Why couldn�t disputes in the single cooperative about what it produced be resolved in a democratic and equitable manner without having to form a new cooperative?

A better comparison in this particualar instance may well be "cooperative in the next city". We're not making Mega-City 1 and super-concentrating people any time soon, and I doubt we're going to go "Autarky city forever" either, I'm a unionized dockworker and I'd think we stick around, after all. :v:

# ? Jun 27, 2018 20:43

Normy: Jul 1, 2004; Do I Krushchev?

Zeeman posted:

For real, what makes our Supreme Court so different from how politicized the US one is (aside from when Harper tried to appoint Nadon)? Is it just that we don't really pay attention, or we don't mythologize what a bunch of assholes said in the 18th century? Does regional representation or a mandatory retirement age alleviate a lot of the issues?

I think a major part of it is that we don't elect judges in Canada so the pool of judges hasn't been politicized at every step.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 21:13

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Dukemont posted:

Again you out yourself as a dumb poo poo.

In a planned economy, there is absolutely no reason why workers would be in competition with each other. What purpose would this serve?

1) in principle there is no reason why a socialist economy has to be planned, an economy 100% composed of Mondragons would be socialist because means of production is owned by the workers, but they would still compete with each other for sales and there isn't (again in principle) be a central planning authority

2) in reality even soviet planned economy attempted to stimulate competition between different state owned apparatus, design process for the same weapon systems for instance was assigned to multiple design bureaus at once and the red army picked out the one it liked the best.

So competition exists under both planned and non-planned socialist economies

Typo fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Jun 27, 2018

# ? Jun 27, 2018 21:44

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
THE SPEECH SUPPRESSOR

Remember: it's "antisemitic" to protest genocide as long as the targets are brown.

Normy posted:

I think a major part of it is that we don't elect judges in Canada so the pool of judges hasn't been politicized at every step.

The U.S. Supreme Court is appointed, not elected.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 21:45

Normy: Jul 1, 2004; Do I Krushchev?

tagesschau posted:

The U.S. Supreme Court is appointed, not elected.

That's not what I said.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 21:46

SoggyBobcat: Oct 2, 2013

Didn't Alberta try to have elected judges or something or am I misremembering something else?

# ? Jun 27, 2018 21:47

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

SoggyBobcat posted:

Didn't Alberta try to have elected judges or something or am I misremembering something else?

It's a dumb idea for idiot babies so, uh, probably yes.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 21:52

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
THE SPEECH SUPPRESSOR

Remember: it's "antisemitic" to protest genocide as long as the targets are brown.

Normy posted:

That's not what I said.

Federal judges aren't elected in the U.S., either.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 21:52

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

SCOTUS appointees are often people who were previously elected to lower courts.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 21:53

tagesschau: Sep 1, 2006; D&D: HASBARA SQUAD
THE SPEECH SUPPRESSOR

Remember: it's "antisemitic" to protest genocide as long as the targets are brown.

THC posted:

SCOTUS appointees are often people who were previously elected to lower courts.

"Often" as in once in the past sixty years? As far as I can tell, only five Supreme Court justices whose terms ended after 1958 were ever elected to any public office, and only Sandra Day O'Connor was elected to a judicial position.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 22:04

xtal: Jan 9, 2011; by Fluffdaddy

PT6A posted:

Because someone smoked too much weed and confused "socialism" with "Star Trek" as best as I can figure

Can you at least read the wikipedia synopsis about something before debating about it?

quote:

There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[13] though social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms.[5][14][15]

Socialist economic systems can be divided into non-market and market forms.[16] Non-market socialism involves the substitution of factor markets and money, with engineering and technical criteria, based on calculation performed in-kind, thereby producing an economic mechanism that functions according to different economic laws from those of capitalism. Non-market socialism aims to circumvent the inefficiencies and crises traditionally associated with capital accumulation and the profit system.[25] By contrast, market socialism retains the use of monetary prices, factor markets and in some cases the profit motive, with respect to the operation of socially owned enterprises and the allocation of capital goods between them. Profits generated by these firms would be controlled directly by the workforce of each firm, or accrue to society at large in the form of a social dividend.[26][27][28]

# ? Jun 27, 2018 22:28

Booourns: Jan 20, 2004; Please send a report when you see me complain about other posters and threads outside of QCS

~thanks!

THC posted:

B.C. casinos �laundromats� for proceeds of organized crime: report

it's real bad folks

That article doesn't even mention the dudes caught on camera walking into the casinos with suitcases and literal large bags filled with money

# ? Jun 27, 2018 22:57

infernal machines: Oct 11, 2012; we monitor many frequencies. we listen always. came a voice, out of the babel of tongues, speaking to us. it played us a mighty dub.

I've missed this in the recent landslide of poo poo, but apparently Doug Ford is planning on scrapping the Ministry of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation. Or at least everyone is assuming he is, it's sort of unclear.

# ? Jun 27, 2018 23:22

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

electing judges is the height of the folly of democracy and might as well as just be "vote to put more ethnic minorities in jail"

# ? Jun 27, 2018 23:40

Juul-Whip: Mar 10, 2008

Booourns posted:

That article doesn't even mention the dudes caught on camera walking into the casinos with suitcases and literal large bags filled with money

https://twitter.com/BobKronbauer/status/1012097140489781248
:homebrew:

# ? Jun 28, 2018 00:54

The Butcher: Apr 20, 2005; Well, at least we tried.; Nap Ghost

THC posted:

certain Lower Mainland casinos unwittingly served as laundromats...

The River Rock casino had accepted $13.5-million in $20 bills within one month

# ? Jun 28, 2018 01:46

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

I'm getting sufficiently freaked out and pissed off at the poo poo that's going on in the States there's a very good chance I will vote NDP in the next federal election, provided they have a chance in my riding.

I may be a liberal but I'd sooner see even honest-to-god socialists in power than the conservatives again.

# ? Jun 28, 2018 02:48

HookShot: Dec 26, 2005

PT6A posted:

provided they have a chance in my riding.

Don't you live in downtown Calgary?

# ? Jun 28, 2018 03:05

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

HookShot posted:

Don't you live in downtown Calgary?

Yes, hence the qualification. I'm definitely voting NDP provincially, but I will vote Liberal again federally if it's between them and the CPC.

# ? Jun 28, 2018 03:07

Wirth1000: May 12, 2010; #essereFerrari

It'll be nice to be able to see just who is worse: Doug Ford or Jason Kenney when he's inevitably elected.

# ? Jun 28, 2018 03:14

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Wirth1000 posted:

It'll be nice to be able to see just who is worse: Doug Ford or Jason Kenney when he's inevitably elected.

Counterpoint: I would rather Jason Kenney's horribleness as premier be left in the realm of conjecture, because gently caress having that fat motherfucking oaf as Premier.

Also I think it's at least possible the Cons won't win. My Dad, who feels that Justin Trudeau is too left wing for his tastes, is voting ANDP provincially at this point. The Conservatives at all levels may have massively overplayed their hand. No one likes Scheer and Kenney.

# ? Jun 28, 2018 03:23

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

Wirth1000 posted:

It'll be nice to be able to see just who is worse: Doug Ford or Jason Kenney when he's inevitably elected.

I feel like Ford is less equipped to deal with holding his party together should the socons/nutters decide to push for their share of the pie while Kenney is one of the nutters so he wont have to deal with that kind of infighting.

# ? Jun 28, 2018 03:28

A Typical Goon: Feb 25, 2011

https://twitter.com/paulvieira/status/1012154650718502912?s=21

Lmao

# ? Jun 28, 2018 03:29

Horseshoe theory: Mar 7, 2005

A Typical Goon posted:

https://twitter.com/paulvieira/status/1012154650718502912?s=21

Lmao

Impending coup looking good.

# ? Jun 28, 2018 03:31

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Harper jesus loving christ how is it possible you're still making me regret voting for you more and more?

# ? Jun 28, 2018 03:31

PT6A: Jan 5, 2006; Public school teachers are callous dictators who won't lift a finger to stop children from peeing in my plane

Was this always boiling just under the surface or did Harper acquire the brainworms recently?

# ? Jun 28, 2018 03:32

Furnaceface: Oct 21, 2004

PT6A posted:

Harper jesus loving christ how is it possible you're still making me regret voting for you more and more?

Didnt his wife leave him to rescue stray cats?

# ? Jun 28, 2018 03:36

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# ? May 30, 2024 17:05

apatheticman: May 13, 2003; Can't post for 5 hours!; Wedge Regret

A Typical Goon posted:

https://twitter.com/paulvieira/status/1012154650718502912?s=21

Lmao

SH - When you do the bad things, don't talk about doing them!
DT - But how will they know?
SH - They will be done!

# ? Jun 28, 2018 03:37

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