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Majorian posted:I think you really need to take a moment and consider who you'd be arguing alongside of if you were to take that position. I'm not talking about posters here, btw.
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Nov 25, 2019 08:59
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Spice World War II posted:So I just saw bolivia TV announce that the senate mas majority agreed to indefinitely table the bill that would reaffirm that all constitutional protections and rights would be afforded to them. The one that reports initially said would be enacted alongside the election bill. When this whole thing started, there was at least one clip circulating of a MAS politician claiming his brother was being held hostage. I assume everyone who's at the wrong end of the gun barrel here has similar concerns.
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Nov 25, 2019 09:07
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Spice World War II posted:So I just saw bolivia TV announce that the senate mas majority agreed to indefinitely table the bill that would reaffirm that all constitutional protections and rights would be afforded to them. The one that reports initially said would be enacted alongside the election bill. Is there a link to this story? Does a site like Erbol have it?
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Nov 25, 2019 10:37
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:It's gonna be pretty tough, going forward, to argue against any remotely leftist head of government purging the officer corps and putting everyone to the right of Cesar Chavez in a forced labor camp, the very instant they have any kind of mandate to do so if not sooner. but the institutions  why do you hate democracy and freedom
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Nov 25, 2019 16:17
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Ytlaya posted:I think that, at the very least, this is why you should seize peoples' wealth/assets, and it's definitely fair to outright ban right-wingers from political positions (or high ranking military ones). In a reasonable world, any remotely right-wing ideology would just be treated the same way being an explicit Nazi is in Germany. Most people wouldn't disagree that it's okay to ban Nazis from political office, so there's nothing fundamentally outlandish about simply expanding that category in a way that makes sense. Quoting in case you delete this, lol.
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Nov 25, 2019 16:32
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Ytlaya posted:I think that, at the very least, this is why you should seize peoples' wealth/assets, and it's definitely fair to outright ban right-wingers from political positions (or high ranking military ones). In a reasonable world, any remotely right-wing ideology would just be treated the same way being an explicit Nazi is in Germany. Most people wouldn't disagree that it's okay to ban Nazis from political office, so there's nothing fundamentally outlandish about simply expanding that category in a way that makes sense. Re-education centers get a bad rap. They’re ideally what a prison would be if most governments didn’t turn them into places to lock away and torture people they don’t like.
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Nov 25, 2019 16:59
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lmao any leftist leader in latin america that doesn't arm and train their supporters, purge the military and laugh in the face of local libs squaling about democracy is a danger to their people
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Nov 25, 2019 17:12
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Silver2195 posted:Quoting in case you delete this, lol. bolivia currently presents a pretty compelling argument to that tune, not going to lie
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Nov 25, 2019 17:13
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Silver2195 posted:Quoting in case you delete this, lol. This is some real horseshoe theory "I have become the Nazi I hate" poo poo.
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Nov 25, 2019 17:15
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How are u posted:This is some real horseshoe theory "I have become the Nazi I hate" poo poo. there is no difference between being a nazi and thinking that countries should stop nazis from being able to take over, said the coup defender
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Nov 25, 2019 17:18
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The right wing should be ignored their causes mocked but people take them seriously and actually listen to them. Might need to figure out how to end this, no not change it.
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Nov 25, 2019 17:24
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How are u posted:This is some real horseshoe theory "I have become the Nazi I hate" poo poo. stopping racist murderers from gaining power = being a nazi
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Nov 25, 2019 17:27
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man is on a bridge trying to throw a person off it, but in order to save the person I'd have to jaywalk galaxy brain lib: making hard choices is a key component of responsible leadership which is why with great regret I will respect the law blah blah blah
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Nov 25, 2019 17:31
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Offer rich people the Piketty deal: 90% of your poo poo, you still get to be richer than you should be so STFU and behave; otherwise you just lose everything. This goes for all monopolies too. Redistribute some of it among the people as actual cash and see if they don't approve of your policies.
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Nov 25, 2019 17:34
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Stop workshopping your future Stalinist regimes here you loving goobers, you can do that if you take power.
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Nov 25, 2019 17:37
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Doctor Jeep posted:man is on a bridge trying to throw a person off it, but in order to save the person I'd have to jaywalk https://twitter.com/dril/status/464802196060917762?s=19
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Nov 25, 2019 17:39
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We can all agree nazis should be punched but "any right wing should be outlawed" goes a little beyond what Im willing to subscribe
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Nov 25, 2019 17:54
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Elias_Maluco posted:We can all agree nazis should be punched but "any right wing should be outlawed" goes a little beyond what Im willing to subscribe What if every right wing in the history of the universe has always been happy to sign up with the nazis as a road to power tho?
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Nov 25, 2019 17:58
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Spice World War II posted:What if every right wing in the history of the universe has always been happy to sign up with the nazis as a road to power tho? I really dont if them all would, I personally know some that didint, in case of Brazil. In any case, until they really becomes nazis, they should be allowed to exist
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Nov 25, 2019 18:00
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How are u posted:This is some real horseshoe theory "I have become the Nazi I hate" poo poo. e: oh to clear I was thinking of the wise man one, but this works too MSDOS KAPITAL fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Nov 25, 2019 |
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Nov 25, 2019 18:02
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How are u posted:This is some real horseshoe theory "I have become the Nazi I hate" poo poo. Do you think that it's reasonable for a country to outright ban an ideology like with Nazis in Germany? If the answer is yes, then I think you'll have trouble actually articulating why this shouldn't also apply to other right-wing ideology, outside of "it just feels weird to me." If it's no, well, at least that's consistent, though it's also pretty dumb because (like with a lot of liberal ideology) it ignores the lack of rights directly resulting from allowing right wingers into positions of power. Dias posted:Offer rich people the Piketty deal: 90% of your poo poo, you still get to be richer than you should be so STFU and behave; otherwise you just lose everything. This goes for all monopolies too. Redistribute some of it among the people as actual cash and see if they don't approve of your policies. The problem with this is that they would inevitably leverage their still-massive wealth into political power over time (which would in turn let them build it back up). Letting people be wealthy is the sort of thing that might end up needing to be a necessary compromise, but it's still inherent unjust (and it's far too early to decide it's somehow necessary, since we haven't even come close to attempting actual equality).
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Nov 25, 2019 18:04
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*storms Berlin, deposes brutal totalitarian regime, executes war criminals for crimes against humanity* (looking at blood-stained hands): what have I become
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Nov 25, 2019 18:05
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Elias_Maluco posted:We can all agree nazis should be punched but "any right wing should be outlawed" goes a little beyond what Im willing to subscribe Outlawed from holding positions in government isn't the same thing as outright throwing right-wingers in prison (which is something someone could also certainly argue for, but not what I was arguing for).
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Nov 25, 2019 18:06
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:*storms Berlin, deposes brutal totalitarian regime, executes war criminals for crimes against humanity* I am gonna be That Guy and argue that Ethics in Political Reprisal and managing retributive tendencies in a revolution are Important Moral Questions to consider, but admittedly I’m coming at it from a fairly strict anti-execution and quasi-religious background. It would be preferable if a revolution could involve killing no human beings, in my opinion, but also that such a thing is probably not likely or practical and that demanding that as a standard will result in further injustice than a revolution that does involve killing. Where on the hypocrisy scale does that place me?
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Nov 25, 2019 18:56
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Ytlaya posted:Outlawed from holding positions in government isn't the same thing as outright throwing right-wingers in prison (which is something someone could also certainly argue for, but not what I was arguing for). You said that in practice, your proposal would probably involve forced labor. Don’t try to back away from that now.
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Nov 25, 2019 19:14
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Silver2195 posted:You said that in practice, your proposal would probably involve forced labor. Don’t try to back away from that now. Lightning Knight posted:I am gonna be That Guy and argue that Ethics in Political Reprisal and managing retributive tendencies in a revolution are Important Moral Questions to consider, but admittedly I’m coming at it from a fairly strict anti-execution and quasi-religious background.  vvv ugh MSDOS KAPITAL fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Nov 25, 2019 |
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Nov 25, 2019 19:19
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Ok for real tho the Stalinist fantasizing is not only weird, it’s also unproductive. Fascists are currently dismantling what progress was made in Bolivia, and y’all are here workshopping your YA dystopian fantasies. Cut it out.
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Nov 25, 2019 19:21
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Lightning Knight posted:Ok for real tho the Stalinist fantasizing is not only weird, it’s also unproductive. Fascists are currently dismantling what progress was made in Bolivia, and y’all are here workshopping your YA dystopian fantasies. Cut it out. short of being capable and willing to smuggle guns, there's not much that anyone ITT can do to actually help apart from participating in politics at home to try to make their own governments less poo poo, which even in the best of cases is a really slow task might as well shitpost about gulaging the liberals, that's better that letting the thread fill up with western imperialists and very concerned real bolivians who want their
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Nov 25, 2019 19:25
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RottenK posted:short of being capable and willing to smuggle guns, there's not much that anyone ITT can do to actually help apart from participating in politics at home to try to make their own governments less poo poo, which even in the best of cases is a really slow task The world continues to spin even when the fascists win. We could, for example, discuss unfolding elections in Uruguay, which I do not know anything about but am aware that they are occurring or have recently occurred. There will always be those supporting empire or capitalism, that doesn’t mean we should give up on posting relevant things in favor of shitposting. Besides all the worst people are too embarrassed now that Bolivia turned out really obviously bad lol.
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Nov 25, 2019 19:28
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imo fantasising about the terrible violence one wants to unleash upon one's political opponents is both unseemly and quite exceptionally unhelpful as far as analysis goes it's also the sort of thing which gets people put under surveillance. its bad, op
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Nov 25, 2019 19:29
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Lightning Knight posted:The world continues to spin even when the fascists win. We could, for example, discuss unfolding elections in Uruguay, which I do not know anything about but am aware that they are occurring or have recently occurred. There will always be those supporting empire or capitalism, that doesn’t mean we should give up on posting relevant things in favor of shitposting. true, that makes sense too Lightning Knight posted:Besides all the worst people are too embarrassed now that Bolivia turned out really obviously bad lol. im sure Wobuffet will waddle back in eventually to tell us that we're meanies for not supporting the fascist coup
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Nov 25, 2019 19:31
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RottenK posted:short of being capable and willing to smuggle guns, there's not much that anyone ITT can do to actually help apart from participating in politics at home to try to make their own governments less poo poo, which even in the best of cases is a really slow task  ) fantasies in the context of revolutionary socialism I'm gameanyone else bothering to quote posts here so I can't change them later: lol and I stand by every loving word
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Nov 25, 2019 19:31
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RottenK posted:true, that makes sense too Im pretty sure he is coming back anytime to say "hey MAS agreed to the terms, new free legit elections are going to be held, democracy won"
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Nov 25, 2019 19:35
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Lightning Knight posted:The world continues to spin even when the fascists win. We could, for example, discuss unfolding elections in Uruguay, which I do not know anything about but am aware that they are occurring or have recently occurred. There will always be those supporting empire or capitalism, that doesn’t mean we should give up on posting relevant things in favor of shitposting. So to be clear we can’t discuss how to implement a leftist government in Latin America under the perpetual memento mori of a Latin American military because the method thereof hurts libs precious fee fees?
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Nov 25, 2019 20:15
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uninterrupted posted:So to be clear we can’t discuss how to implement a leftist government in Latin America under the perpetual memento mori of a Latin American military because the method thereof hurts libs precious fee fees? I mean if you want to make that kind of argument, which I don’t advise, you should be contextualizing it within what is actually possible and likely in Latin America, not your personal pet project politics.
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Nov 25, 2019 20:19
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I think the neo-Stalinism is understandable given how Bolivia has painted a very bleak future for the left in Latin America. Morales did literally nothing wrong and was still smeared as an authoritarian and a strongman dictator, and he was deposed with bipartisan support from an international community indifferent to the accountability-free murders of indigenous people. One really does have to wonder whether the left can succeed at all for more than a decade or so before it is violently overthrown and everything they've done is rolled back, and whether the only way to prevent that and protect advances for the working people is to arm yourselves and crack down on political opponents. Personally, I think the answer isn't a blanket gulag ban on right-wing thought, but rather that Morales sat as President for a long time in a country with literal slaveowner fascists embedded into one of its major cities, which openly snubbed his authority. At the risk of Monday morning quarterbacking, perhaps this could have been avoided if he rolled the Army into Santa Cruz while he still had control over it and just sent everyone proudly displaying a swastika on their car to prison and redistributed their wealth. At the very least he definitely should have done what the coup gov't did first thing when it rose to power, and replaced all the leadership in the Army with people loyal to MAS. Yes, that would obviously have had everyone screaming dictator at him and the irony is not lost on me, but they did that anyway so gently caress libs, do what you want.
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Nov 25, 2019 20:28
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hoiyes posted:Regardless of final result, that's an extremely low donkey vote % for LA. Congrats on a functional democracy.
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Nov 25, 2019 20:55
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Silver2195 posted:You said that in practice, your proposal would probably involve forced labor. Don’t try to back away from that now. Yes, because attempts to seize wealth/property would likely be met with violence and end up with the people involved in prison. Taking the wealth/property is mainly important in this context because, otherwise, wealthy/assets can be converted into political power. Basically, some sort of serious conflict will inevitably happen simply due to the fact that "people who currently have power and wealth need to be divorced of that power and wealth" and that sort of thing generally doesn't peacefully happen. It presents a dilemma for left-wing movements, because those movements usually arise in systems where those with the most wealth have right-wing inclinations (for obvious reasons). This leaves two options - either leave the right-wingers with the power to potentially re-seize power (like in Bolivia) or take measures that will be deemed authoritarian or corrupt (like directly seizing wealth/power from right-wing elements or bribing members of the military to ensure they stay on your side - which is also a big potential issue since military higher-ups are likely to also have right-wing sympathies in countries that used to be right-wing).
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Nov 25, 2019 22:45
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Lightning Knight posted:The world continues to spin even when the fascists win. We could, for example, discuss unfolding elections in Uruguay, which I do not know anything about but am aware that they are occurring or have recently occurred.
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Nov 25, 2019 23:00
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BBJoey posted:What’s stopping you from learning about the Uruguayan elections and posting about them? I’m at work. 
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Nov 25, 2019 23:00
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