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It is a bad game, but any pedophilia is the result of unhappy accident rather than intent. A more important reason that it's bad is essentially that nothing within it matters - chimerical reality is even less meaningful or sensical than the most uncharitable reading of consensual reality. Also, its rather distressing take on the treatment of mental illness (psychologists are banal!!) and its rather bizarre stances on banality re: adulthood and wonder in general.
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May 23, 2016 14:55
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Mors Rattus posted:A more important reason that it's bad is essentially that nothing within it matters - chimerical reality is even less meaningful or sensical than the most uncharitable reading of consensual reality. Also, its rather distressing take on the treatment of mental illness (psychologists are banal!!) and its rather bizarre stances on banality re: adulthood and wonder in general. True, although I don't see any reason why this couldn't be fixed by a new edition. All it would really have to do is have some consistency about what's Glamour and what's Banal other than "things the current writer likes and doesn't like."
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May 23, 2016 14:59
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Mors Rattus posted:Also, its rather distressing take on the treatment of mental illness (psychologists are banal!!) This is why it's downright insulting, and absolute trash.
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May 23, 2016 15:00
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Rand Brittain posted:True, although I don't see any reason why this couldn't be fixed by a new edition. All it would really have to do is have some consistency about what's Glamour and what's Banal other than "things the current writer likes and doesn't like." Any new edition is going to be fueled by nostalgia - C20's a nostalgia product, all the 20th anniversary editions are. Making major changes to things is usually not something you get with those. I mean, it could happen, but I don't see Autumn People being entirely disavowed by C20.
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May 23, 2016 15:27
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Night10194 posted:This is why it's downright insulting, and absolute trash. And why Beast is so demeaning to victims of Bullying and Abuse. The two options given are 'You deserved it you rear end in a top hat' or 'It happened so you could become something capable of abusing others', of course option 2 only applies if you're a member of the cool kids club, if you aren't then you're the absolute worst person ever and your only just reward is death by torture.
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May 23, 2016 15:42
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Kurieg posted:And why Beast is so demeaning to victims of Bullying and Abuse. The two options given are 'You deserved it you rear end in a top hat' or 'It happened so you could become something capable of abusing others', of course option 2 only applies if you're a member of the cool kids club, if you aren't then you're the absolute worst person ever and your only just reward is death by torture. I was starting to get interested that maybe OP had moved beyond White Wolf but then I saw Beast. I will not be buying anything OP produced.
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May 23, 2016 15:43
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Night10194 posted:I was starting to get interested that maybe OP had moved beyond White Wolf but then I saw Beast. That's a little extreme when nearly all their stuff before and after Beast are pretty darn good.
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May 23, 2016 15:51
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Kibner posted:That's a little extreme when nearly all their stuff before and after Beast are pretty darn good. Nothing good enough to make it worth giving money to a company that made a game celebrating abusers. To explain, my father has spent a lot of time doing medical witnessing for child abuse cases and I've heard a lot about how and what people do to their children to 'punish' and 'teach' them as a result. A game that tries to justify that poo poo with 'We're teaching lessons' strikes a very familiar chord and makes me extremely angry. Night10194 fucked around with this message at 16:03 on May 23, 2016 |
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May 23, 2016 16:01
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Kibner posted:That's a little extreme when nearly all their stuff before and after Beast are pretty darn good.
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May 23, 2016 16:01
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Ultimately, this is your decision and none of us can tell you you made the wrong one. All we can do is note that Beast is profoundly out of character for the line in general, and also that legally speaking it cannot easily be cancelled and disavowed despite fairly trustworthy rumor being that most of Onyx Path is very unhappy with it (including notable permanent employee Rose Bailey), because they have Kickstarter obligations regarding it.
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May 23, 2016 16:07
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Mors Rattus posted:Any new edition is going to be fueled by nostalgia - C20's a nostalgia product, all the 20th anniversary editions are. Making major changes to things is usually not something you get with those. I mean, it could happen, but I don't see Autumn People being entirely disavowed by C20. They've already said that C20 is going to be the Revised edition Changeling never got in a way that V20, W20, and M20 weren't. I mean, if you want to say you don't trust them to make a Changeling you like, that's a logically consistent position, but if they don't it won't be because they didn't decide to try.
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May 23, 2016 16:08
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Fair enough. I doubt I'll like it much because CtD takes some fundamental positions that I find entirely unappealing (chimerical reality, say) but if they can make it a non-terrible game, more power to 'em.
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May 23, 2016 16:12
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Well, it's a "pedophile game" in the same sense that it's an "otherkin game" - it's not intentional (though the cover to The Enchanted always felt odd to me), but it caters to certain subcultures nonetheless. I'm reminded of how C:tD was so well received by the otherkin community that some presumed the authors must be otherkin themselves. They weren't, of course, as far as they known... but maybe Dansky is in denial about his elf soul... (That's not to conflate the two groups, mind.) This is not unique to Changeling, mind, there's always been similar concerns about the youthful, hair-and-height-deficient demihumans of D&D. The main problem is that Changeling is a game with a relatively high emphasis on sex and sexuality, but also favoring child characters. I imagine most of the authors were just blind as to how this would look twenty years down the road, but it's just one of the myriad reasons Changeling is a problematic game.
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May 23, 2016 16:16
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Mors Rattus posted:Ultimately, this is your decision and none of us can tell you you made the wrong one. My primary complaint with Beast is that Matt added in things that state that his opinion is the one true and correct one, and that the changes he was forced to make by Rose, Rich, and the KS Backers are patent lies, or things made up by Beasts who haven't embraced how awesome and great they are. You have to do a real careful reading of the work to find them but he does so repeatedly.
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May 23, 2016 16:33
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Mors Rattus posted:All we can do is note that Beast is profoundly out of character for the line in general, and also that legally speaking it cannot easily be cancelled and disavowed despite fairly trustworthy rumor being that most of Onyx Path is very unhappy with it (including notable permanent employee Rose Bailey), because they have Kickstarter obligations regarding it. I'm honestly pretty curious about the discussions and dev process going on behind the scenes with Beast.
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May 23, 2016 16:37
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Guys, I'm not the thread police or anything, but do we really want to continue going on and on about how Beast is unadulterated garbage for page after page? We all agree Beast is a load of shite and is massively offensive to a whole load of people, do we need to keep reiterating the point? OPP have produced four gamelines which own, and the core God-Machine stuff owns equally hard. As somebody who didn't back Dark Eras and regrets it, I'd love to hear more about the alternate settings. The alternate settings in the Demon ST's guide sound really awesome as well - does anyone with that book want to make an effortpost about them? It's just, jesus christ, the more we hear about Beast the lower the chances of people deciding to play Demon, Vampire, Werewolf and Mage (all good games) are. Nobody's here is going to play Beast anyway and at this point we have enough of a backlog of people picking over every detail of Beast to drag it through the mud (and an F&F to boot) that TG could publish its own hardback book called "Don't Buy Beast: The Primordial"
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May 23, 2016 16:58
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I hope C20 does away with the notion that law is banal. I've talked about it before, but a major source of glamour is supposed to mortal dreams, hope, and passion, something that can be gleaned from moments of intense emotion, works of creative genius, and for the Unseelie, moments of terror and devastation. Virtually nowhere in the modern human world is there anywhere that has more passions running hot, more hope, more shattering disappointment, more intense joy than a court room. Every legal argument has the potential to be a work of art, emotion, and passion - an argument that can be harvested - and met by one with just as much potential. Every code of law has the potential to be a masterpiece of creation, because law is a purely created thing. It does not exist in 'raw' form - it simply is summoned from the ether by jurists and lawyers by the force of their will and the force of will of men and women stretching back across literal centuries. Those dizzying highs and terrifying lows, those exquisite pieces of oratory and creative interpretation given by impassioned men and women transcending mortal bounds in special costume in special places in special rituals, should be a source of wonder, not banality. For the Sidhe, who are literally creatures able to speak law and make it binding on all who hear it, it should definitely be so. But no, law is for grown-ups so law is banal. Let's ignore all the stories about making contracts with fairies in the fairy tales, and all the associations with sacred law half the spirits we're talking about have (and that's another thing - these spirits thrive on law in myth, they thrive on bargains, deals, and taboos, sacred places no one can go without a specific offering, very specific wordplay...) because hey, the writers fell asleep in Civics class so law must be banal. Tossers. EDIT: Sidhe, not Seelie. Loomer fucked around with this message at 17:33 on May 23, 2016 |
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May 23, 2016 17:01
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I can probably do some effortposting when i get home, sure.
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May 23, 2016 17:25
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MC Smoke Sensei posted:What do you guys think would be some cool spin-offs for plot ideas? I have some, but if you have cool freaking ideas, I'd like to hear them! I'll provide internet gold for them! Getting the basics that any cabal needs/wants can fill a few sessions and can serve as an excellent tutorial into just how much mages can skip over material needs/wants and go directly to summoning unlimited numbers of shotguns. The initial checklist can look something like
Within a few sessions they could be financially independent, relatively secure in their surroundings (not realizing that security has a whole new meaning now that they are Awakened), and basically living the Good Life In The Lie. Take notes on how they set up all these mundane support systems - there will probably be one or two bad choices that a later antagonist can discover and exploit. It's also worth mentioning that the default assumption of the book is that starting PCs have not just Awakened but been snapped up by an Order at least long enough to have received some sort of mentoring, training, and set of default social connections. Your folks are starting out without those things which is just fine - I did the same thing in my Mage game and it created no problems. Given the auspicious nature of their Awakening, once they show up on the radar it's natural for various cabals or independent power players to seek them out - Orders can compete fiercely for new blood, and if the new blood is even more special and shiny than average than they may be in a good bargaining position. The most important thing for an open-ended startup like this is to let both the players and characters feel the freedom of their circumstances and pay attention to what they grab on to and given them more of it. It sounds like all of the characters have good personal agendas so that's a solid dstar.
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May 23, 2016 17:26
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Loomer posted:I hope C20 does away with the notion that law is banal. I've talked about it before, but a major source of glamour is supposed to mortal dreams, hope, and passion, something that can be gleaned from moments of intense emotion, works of creative genius, and for the Unseelie, moments of terror and devastation. Yeah, this is what I mean. There's huge potential in Dreaming as long as it doesn't veer into "story about growing up as written by petulant child."
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May 23, 2016 17:27
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Beastchat will probably be running hot until the F&F is over, I wouldn't fight the flow. After that we can hopefully ship it out to the island of misfit games along with Mummy, Geist, and Changing Breeds.
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May 23, 2016 17:33
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Doodmons posted:Guys, I'm not the thread police or anything, but do we really want to continue going on and on about how Beast is unadulterated garbage for page after page? We all agree Beast is a load of shite and is massively offensive to a whole load of people, do we need to keep reiterating the point? OPP have produced four gamelines which own, and the core God-Machine stuff owns equally hard. As somebody who didn't back Dark Eras and regrets it, I'd love to hear more about the alternate settings. The alternate settings in the Demon ST's guide sound really awesome as well - does anyone with that book want to make an effortpost about them? When Beast comes up, it is because someone asks about it in the scope of their personal reaction. A discussion if OPP deserves your payment for goods they offer when that money will go in part to support the production of a game that celebrates and justifies the abuse of children is both interesting and important. If you want to discuss or read something else produced by Paradox or Onyx Path, bring that up and see if anyone else likes your things you talk about. And as long as Beast: the Primordial remains a supported product by one of those companies, it is a germane subject to the thread.
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May 23, 2016 17:33
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I'd like to talk more about Deviant, personally. Here's what I know so far:
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May 23, 2016 17:36
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Deviant: the Christ, We're Sorry About Beast-ing.
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May 23, 2016 17:39
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Doodmons posted:It's just, jesus christ, the more we hear about Beast the lower the chances of people deciding to play Demon, Vampire, Werewolf and Mage (all good games) are. Nobody's here is going to play Beast anyway and at this point we have enough of a backlog of people picking over every detail of Beast to drag it through the mud (and an F&F to boot) that TG could publish its own hardback book called "Don't Buy Beast: The Primordial" As the one writing said F&F, because people keep coming into the thread and asking about it. This latest conversation was kicked off by someone going "I read the OP and I just don't understand why Beast gets all the hate it does." We might need to update the OP but the simple truth is that the game is bad. Though now that I know that people internal to OPP hate it too the shadenfruedy part of my personality wants to know more. Alien Rope Burn posted:Beastchat will probably be running hot until the F&F is over, I wouldn't fight the flow. Should I take this as "Kurieg stop getting distracted and finish the loving book already" post? Kurieg fucked around with this message at 17:46 on May 23, 2016 |
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May 23, 2016 17:42
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All I have on that is the rumor mill that Rose Bailey intensely dislikes Beast and is very unhappy with how it turned out. As for Deviant: we don't know a lot. We know that Jekyll/Hyde is an inspiration for it. And... 
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May 23, 2016 17:46
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:I'd like to talk more about Deviant, personally.
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May 23, 2016 17:49
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Rand Brittain posted:
Deviant: the Art?
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May 23, 2016 17:50
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Well, I don't know that The Guyver and "Showa Era Kamen rider where every other Rider was a dude turned into a monster and/or cyborg by secret corporate experiments" is really Deviantart's thing so much. I remember hearing that they were going to address stuff like "So what happens when Chiron Group goes past 'making a new tier 3 hunter"' possibly?
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May 23, 2016 17:54
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:I'd like to talk more about Deviant, personally. Dave Brookshaw posted:So GenCon is over now, and I'm in my room somewhere near Indy airport ready for the long trip home tomorrow.
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May 23, 2016 18:08
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Basically if Deviant is Psi*Run set in the World of Darkness, that would be loving sweet. With organisations like Cheiron Group, TFV, the Deva Corporation and so on in nWoD, it's about time that we had some support for the inevitable Second Sight/Psy Ops/Prototype stories that can result from organisations like those existing. On a Mage note, I still haven't read the book properly but from speaking with people who have, Fallen World is off the chain. It pretty much has to be about solving occult mysteries now, because any other type of story from horror to political intrigue is just going to get solved by a mage going 'DEATH IS CERTAIN' while riding a silver motorcycle made of magic through the air and clutching a flaming skull. There are some inconsistencies - Adamant Hand being useless garbage for example - but overall the power level has been increased from Full Throttle to War Enhanced Performance.
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May 23, 2016 18:16
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Adamant Hand is useless garbage? Who the gently caress have you been talking to? Adamant Hand lets you perform a spell and punching someone in a single action. Now, granted, that spell wil have a fairly small dicepool if you are just using that one Yantra on it and it needs to be a spell symbolically related to doing a violence to someone, but that's still a spell plus an action.
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May 23, 2016 18:18
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Yaaay that sounds nifty. It's a little thing, but I especially like that it explicitly calls out that it's street-level because the antagonists are normal-and-organized. I feel like that could lend itself pretty well to running a good "evading a conspiracy" game without either playing mortals in turn, or running into the "and this plot armor/constant escalation of power dice pools is why you can't just power your way out of this situation" that I feel like you'd get into running it with another line.
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May 23, 2016 18:23
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Mors Rattus posted:Adamant Hand is useless garbage? Really? That's not what I took away from the wording of Adamant Hand. It talks about "adding dice to a spell cast on subsequent turns, or to a spell cast reflexively in the same turn as the combat action". It sounds like if the spell was already reflexive, you get to cast it on the same turn as you punch someone, which you could anyway, and get your order tool bonus of +1 dice (yay). If it means it allows you to cast spells as a reflexive action I think they could have worded that a lot better.
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May 23, 2016 18:43
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No, that's just describing how Yantras work. When you use one Yantra, you can use the spell reflexively on the same turn. The oddity is in the dice provision - it should, as a Yantra, provide a +1 bonus either way. I'm not sure if Adamant Hand uniquely doesn't when used on the same turn as the casting. But it is specifically allowing you to do violence and reflexively cast a spell on the same turn by using the violence as a Yantra. You can't normally do that. 'Punch someone' is not normally a Yantra, after all, normally it's stuff like 'wave a wand around.'
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May 23, 2016 18:47
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:I'd like to talk more about Deviant, personally. I would be so up for Prototype: The Game.
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May 23, 2016 18:59
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Mors Rattus posted:No, that's just describing how Yantras work. When you use one Yantra, you can use the spell reflexively on the same turn. The oddity is in the dice provision - it should, as a Yantra, provide a +1 bonus either way. I'm not sure if Adamant Hand uniquely doesn't when used on the same turn as the casting. That makes a ton more sense than 'pay 2 merit dots for +1 dice you idiot'
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May 23, 2016 19:02
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Yeah, it is actually incredibly good since it means that an Adamantine Arrow can hit you twice by punching you and also doing a spell, or can attack while active dodging if they have Athletics version.
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May 23, 2016 19:15
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Can you use Adamantine Fist to say, shoot someone with a gun followed up by a fireball?
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May 23, 2016 19:16
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Kurieg posted:Can you use Adamantine Fist to say, shoot someone with a gun followed up by a fireball? Nope. Adamantine Fist is explicitly only Athletics, Brawl or Weaponry.
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May 23, 2016 19:28
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