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Lutha Mahtin posted:man this would be probably the greatest (or worst oh boy I dunno, I think I might have the nuttiest ex, he has signed on to literally every wackjob LA fad diet and wellness trend of the last few years also extremely into faux-Eastern spirituality and medical hokum like Deepak Chopra, "third-eye" power, psychic surgery, etc he's never met a rich white people pseudoscience bandwagon he didn't want to hop onboard I mean, imagine being so into this dude: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jo%C3%A3o_de_Deus_(medium) you fly to Brazil for a week to have imaginary cancer cut out of you
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Aug 16, 2018 05:45
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) rated e/n thread of all time if we went down that road with my relationship history
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lol my dude i have dated multiples of that person. so many first dates (or early dates) where i got ghosted after articulating "actually I'm not a huge bigot when it comes to traditional established religions per se, including the Abrahamic religions". so many wannabe earth mothers just rejecting entire major historical components of their ideologies. i blame freud but also fuckem i found a good lady who isn't an insane weirdo like that. deal withit
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Aug 16, 2018 06:14
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CountFosco posted:I'm sorry, this thread isn't the place for my personal confessions. I used to feel the same way. About your confessions only, though. Not mine. Never mine.
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Aug 16, 2018 06:35
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Caufman posted:I used to feel the same way. drat, Caufman can deliver a burn as well as a sermon  From the people I dated: A pagan who went to Russia to have her baptism washed away in a river A girl who really believed this one pedo-conspiracy that was sweeping the nation a few years back. The main instigator of the madness got elected to the parliament, accused of defamation or smth and ran away to the US.
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Aug 16, 2018 07:50
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JcDent posted:A pagan who went to Russia to have her baptism washed away in a river https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAo_rEgR4xU
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Aug 16, 2018 10:36
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So the USCCB asked for a Vatican investigator along with a lay investigation committee to try and find out the extent of the clerical sex abuse cover-up in the US. I've also seen a lot of prayers for the victims, which is good. But honestly after reading the incident report I gotta say...the whole USCCB needs to be in sackcloth and ashes, fervently making reparations to God. There are very few things you can actually do with the Eucharist and molesting a nine year old girl with it is not one of them.
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Aug 16, 2018 21:25
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The Onion on point
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Aug 16, 2018 21:37
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Can I request that we not post graphic details of the abuse? Or maybe put a warning on it if you feel they're important to post.
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Aug 16, 2018 21:52
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I'm really disappointed that there are so many important church officials connected to the Pennsylvania thing who are trying to minimize and spin that big report that just came out. It's just a rotten thing to do to all of the people who were hurt. e: i know this is SA, and I've posted gross things myself, but that onion headline is really tasteless
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Aug 16, 2018 21:52
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Lutha Mahtin posted:I'm really disappointed that there are so many important church officials connected to the Pennsylvania thing who are trying to minimize and spin that big report that just came out. It's just a rotten thing to do to all of the people who were hurt. Yeah, everyone involved is now in full CYOA mode, which makes me think a lot of people will eventually lose their jobs and be disgraced once the investigation begins. Meanwhile in my diocese our bishop reiterated our longstanding policy of "call the drat cops." Mysteriously we've never had a problem with the clergy here. e: like we have had a handful of priests who got sent down here because they were molesting kids in the diocese they were from, they got reported to the police and laicized once we found out even when there was no evidence they were continuing in their behavior. The Phlegmatist fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Aug 16, 2018 |
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Aug 16, 2018 22:07
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I'm glad you have a good diocese. The archdiocese here (of Minneapolis and Saint Paul) had their coverups exposed a few years ago and it's been an awful thing, but I'm glad for the brave victims and church employees who came forward and pushed to bring all of it out of the dark. It also got rid of an archbishop I wasn't a fan of: at one point he was closing dozens of parishes and schools while at the same time accepting an anonymous $1 million donation so that he could mail anti-gay-marriage DVDs to every single Catholic household in the diocese
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Aug 16, 2018 22:27
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HEY GUNS posted:Pidan, it's OK for people to disagree with you and for you to disagree with them I just can't let this discourse go, because there was no actual disagreement and I'm wondering what went wrong. Me: it is a disgrace that this happened, that the church did not report the offenders and it is further damning that didn't even make a serious attempt at using internal processes to prevent more abuse. ML: your opinion that they should have handled in internally is disgusting. Me: I don't think they should have handled it internally. ML: stop digging, moron. Me: ??? Others: pidan is just saying that in an ideal world the church should have handled it internally. Conclusion: I may be bad at expressing my thoughts. Hence, no more politics discussions, because this kind of bizarre conversation upsets me.
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Aug 16, 2018 22:32
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i think you said “if they managed to properly handle it themselves i’d be happy” or something that got misread to mean “it should be handled internally” but i’m not going back to reread it
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Aug 16, 2018 22:40
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also just lol at the fact that everyone I've talked to here where I live is very deeply concerned about clerical sexual abuse when our diocese has poo poo locked down tighter than fort knox and we have a literal child molester on the county school board
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Aug 16, 2018 23:37
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that’s honestly one of the negatives about how widely reported the abuse has been, instead of seeing it as a problem that can happen anywhere it’s a “catholic problem” that can be safely ignored if you’re not catholic, so go ahead and tut tut before you go into work at roy more’s campaign hq
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Aug 16, 2018 23:44
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I just assume anyone even tangentially involved in gymnastics or wrestling is guilty until proven innocent
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Aug 17, 2018 00:02
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yeah one thing with smaller denominations and independent churches is that I'm sure there are some that don't have any kind of abuse reporting policy, or they might not have any training or background check system for volunteers and employees. "18% of churches surveyed had no internal policy" isn't a very exciting headline, though
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Aug 17, 2018 00:03
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Senju Kannon posted:that’s honestly one of the negatives about how widely reported the abuse has been, instead of seeing it as a problem that can happen anywhere it’s a “catholic problem” that can be safely ignored if you’re not catholic, so go ahead and tut tut before you go into work at roy more’s campaign hq tbh I think most of the problem is that the northeastern US had to go through the Know-Nothings and decided to just wall themselves off. so you get priests going through the Catholic school -> Catholic high school -> Catholic seminary -> Ordination pipeline where every problem they knew was handled internally and covered up because that's what their professors instinctively did. and so they just shrug their shoulders. welp, if someone rapes a kid it's an internal matter, and if I rape a kid it's an internal matter. just like I learned in seminary. and now if I get caught it's even better because I get to go to that paraclete place in new mexico where the psychologists in charge let people out to rape even more kids. meanwhile in the south you don't have any problems with diocesan cover-ups because our clergy during that period had to cobble together some kinda education, including theology and management courses, from a bunch of secular schools. and the entire idea of a good ol boys club never got transmitted down here. so the problem is indeed just the fact that hey, Catholics just developed a systemic in-house system to cover up all their crimes. much like the Jehovah's Witnesses. who are also facing criminal litigation for covering up sexual abuse but eh, must be those Catholics, not something that's kinda endemic to human society that worsens when those who have the inclination to abuse children are free of consequence.
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Aug 17, 2018 01:11
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It's not just the Northeast though! It's LA, it's Miami, it's every diocese in the US. Every diocese on the planet. Saying it's just the Northeast isn't just wrong, it's dangerous.
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Aug 17, 2018 01:21
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pidan posted:Can I request that we not post graphic details of the abuse? Or maybe put a warning on it if you feel they're important to post. Having read a ton of it, I agree, but can we at least agree that the parts of it where the pedos were commiting outright blasphemies is literally demonic, utterly terrifying? I wish to spare people the details but the overall image makes me cry out in anger for fire and judgement.
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Aug 17, 2018 01:28
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Also I would like to invite everyone to fast tomorrow and pray for the victims and the church, if such a thing might please the Almighty.
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Aug 17, 2018 01:30
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Unfortunately I feel like the Bible itself doesn't help much here with the whole 'need to have 2 reliable witnesses for accusations against church leaders' thing. I guess I get that they were trying to avoid witch hunts in the early church but still....
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Aug 17, 2018 01:32
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Spacewolf posted:It's LA, it's Miami, it's every diocese in the US. Every diocese on the planet. Saying it's just the Northeast isn't just wrong, it's dangerous. the archdiocese of miami was the first to crack down on that poo poo, and LA has turned into a forever war between gomez and mahony this is being rooted out everywhere except a bunch of bishops in PA/MS who say "eh, well, didn't do nothing wrong" which might be true but lol. all dioceses are required to keep extensive records, and the lay investigation is coming.
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Aug 17, 2018 01:44
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Spacewolf posted:It's not just the Northeast though! Yes. The Australian report was eerily similar even down to the predators per diocese.
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Aug 17, 2018 01:48
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The Phlegmatist posted:the archdiocese of miami was the first to crack down on that poo poo, and LA has turned into a forever war between gomez and mahony what the hell is it about loving penn, jesus
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Aug 17, 2018 01:52
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I could go into a long thing about how Pennsylvania outside Philadelphia is, ecclesiologically, essentially a colony of the Philadelphia archdiocese (basically every bishop in Scranton, for instance, has been parachuted in from Philadelphia's presbyterate) and the Philadelphia archdiocese is so very, very, very hosed up, but I'll instead say: We call it Pennsyltucky for a reason.
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Aug 17, 2018 02:20
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hey my parents are from kentucky, that's OUR joke
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Aug 17, 2018 02:23
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Actually, I believe it comes from James Carville. :P
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Aug 17, 2018 02:31
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Could I suggest that some of this coverup is just institutions being institutions? I think people have this assumption that because the Catholic Church is a religious organization, it should be held to a higher standard than say, a government, or a business, or whatever. But the US government, the Catholic Church, and Ford Motor Company, for instance, are all institutions, and institutions, regardless of the purpose the institution was set up for, tend to act similarly, and one of the ways they act similarly is that people on the inside of the institution, a lot of times, cover up bad acts and abuses by insiders, for various reasons, even if those bad acts negatively affect the community the institution serves. And this can happen for a bunch of different reasons, obviously. I mean, even if we just focus on sex scandals, putting aside like financial scandals and stuff like that, in addition to the latest revelations about the Catholic Church, Bill Hybels, the pastor of Willow Creek Church, the fifth largest megachurch in the US, as well as large portions of the church's governing board just stepped down after it came out that he had sexually assaulted ten women and the church covered it up . Right now, Congressman Jim Jordan is under investigation based on allegations that, when he was assistant wrestling coach at Ohio State University, he helped cover up abuse of wrestlers by the team's physician. At the beginning of the year, Larry Nasser, a team doctor for the University of Michigan and USA Gymnastics, was convicted of molesting up to 150 girls and young women, accusations that had been made for some time, but were ignored by the Univerity of Michigan and USA Gymnastics. Last year, it came out that a number of important figures in Hollywood, most notably Harvey Weinstein, had engaged in patterns of sexual assault and sexual harassment. A few years back, a lawsuit was settled by Boy Scouts of America after it had been accused of covering up over 2000 cases of sexual abuse by scoutmasters. Then, of course, there was the famous Penn State Joe Paterno/Jerry Sandusky case. A constant in pretty much all of these cases is that, when accusations are made, and evidence starts coming in about wrongdoing, the institution, deciding that if this information becomes public, it'll hurt the reputation of the institution, tries to cover it up. Then, of course, it gets out, and that hurts the reputation of the institution more than had something been done in the first place. But there is this tendency, when this starts happening, for the institution to circle the wagons and hope the situation goes away. It's something that needs to change, obviously, but I think people are wrong to focus on this as something unique to the Catholic Church. This isn't a Catholic Church problem so much as it is an institutions problem.
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Aug 17, 2018 02:52
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I say this as a catholic, and one who believes in the Church and will believe until the day he dies: I hold the Church to a standard higher than any human institution. She is the bride of Christ, and she is hurting.
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Aug 17, 2018 03:01
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Ceciltron posted:I say this as a catholic, and one who believes in the Church and will believe until the day he dies: Then consider this, and be comforted. It's both done worse over the years and survived worse. It'll survive this.
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Aug 17, 2018 03:15
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Epicurius posted:Then consider this, and be comforted. It's both done worse over the years and survived worse. It'll survive this. Not even the gates of hell shall prevail.
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Aug 17, 2018 03:17
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Ceciltron posted:I say this as a catholic, and one who believes in the Church and will believe until the day he dies: As also a Catholic, she may be the bride of Christ but she's also the daughter of the Roman empire
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Aug 17, 2018 04:58
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Ceciltron posted:I say this as a catholic, and one who believes in the Church and will believe until the day he dies: Yeah, this. It's true that other organisations have done the same kind of thing, but the Catholic church is larger than any one of these organisations, and it should be held to a higher standard. And right now, in the secular world, the meme that "celibate Catholic priests === pedophiles" has taken very deep roots, which is bad on a number of levels. And the size of the cover-up, which went up to bishops and cardinals, makes it seem like the whole church is in on it. The church has pulled other evil things in the past, many of them as official policy. The church is also the organism that transmits the truth of the Christian religion (from a Catholic perspective. There are of course other churches that transmit this, and other Christian perspectives that believe that transmission by an institution is not necessary). So when the organization that you trust to contain the truth clearly contains this kind of evil stuff, how can one trust their tradition? When I read about some of the things that happened, and the way they were widely known within the church but apparently no-one saw fit to do anything about it, it is very hard for me to then say "but their teaching is pure tho". I have read some arguments about how the evil things in the church just prove that the church is good (because a purely human institution would not survive this kind of scandal, so the holy spirit must be helping). This does not convince me. I also know that the church does a lot of good things at the same time. It does good as an organization, and more importantly it inspires many individual people to be good. This helps a bit. But there are rotten parts.
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Aug 17, 2018 05:16
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I'm kinda drunk rn but lol tallryrand was a loving bishop
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Aug 17, 2018 05:32
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pidan posted:Yeah, this. It's true that other organisations have done the same kind of thing, but the Catholic church is larger than any one of these organisations, and it should be held to a higher standard. Yeah I severely doubt that priests sexually abusing children is some uniquely Catholic thing, certainly it afflicts all denominations. I posted on the topic a while back, but it seems to me the larger issue is the coverup. Not to diminish the suffering of victims and their families, but the unique problem of the Catholic Church is the systematic ignoring, cover, and hiding of sexual abuse. I don't intend to score any PROTESTANT POINTS (TM) by speaking on the subject, I do try to empathize with our thread Catholics. This is unconscionable, and I hope you all speak out and work for change in the Church.
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Aug 17, 2018 05:56
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pidan posted:Yeah, this. It's true that other organisations have done the same kind of thing, but the Catholic church is larger than any one of these organisations, and it should be held to a higher standard. That meme has taken root precisely because it keeps proving to be accurate, because the Church won't conscience letting secular investigators do the job that the internal systems refuse to. This sort of thing is precisely why my family left the Church, and lies heavily on why I will never return, because I cannot reconcile the Church as a source of spiritual truth with the organization being willingly complicit in covering for monstrous deeds on the part of its clergy, continually, long after the damage to its public reputation has been cemented in the public eye thanks to decades of these cases.
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Aug 17, 2018 07:02
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Liquid Communism posted:That meme has taken root precisely because it keeps proving to be accurate, because the Church won't conscience letting secular investigators do the job that the internal systems refuse to. While this is unfortunately true in many areas of the Church, each diocese is different. Some are so strongly in favor of the authorities that an official complaint against a priest requires a police report, a report done completely without the diocese’s intervention but with their instigation. But we never hear about those dioceses.
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Aug 17, 2018 07:16
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The Phlegmatist posted:There are very few things you can actually do with the Eucharist and molesting a nine year old girl with it is not one of them. what?  E: it still blows my mind that pedo priests somehow avoid getting actual secular sentences. Like, what makes them immune? JcDent fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Aug 17, 2018 |
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Aug 17, 2018 07:27
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I'm not even Catholic and this got my blood pressure extremely high. https://www.catholicleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/PA-GRAND-JURY-REPORT-DEBUNKED1.pdf
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Aug 17, 2018 10:03
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