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Considering the last time the Valar directly intervened they sundered half a continent I'd say Middle Earth was lucky things turned out as well as they did in the end.
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Jul 10, 2020 07:55
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did the valar recover the silmaril that maglor threw into the sea or even the one maedhros took into the earth?
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Jul 10, 2020 09:09
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Shibawanko posted:did the valar recover the silmaril that maglor threw into the sea or even the one maedhros took into the earth? Nah, they left them like that Always wondered what the hell Ulmo/Ossë meant by that. Feel like the other gods probably gave them some poo poo about it
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Jul 10, 2020 12:10
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The valar are active throughout the lord of the rings I doubt having ulmo roll a ring into a sea ditch would be too much for them Anyway Gandalf believed it’s which is all that is important
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Jul 10, 2020 12:52
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Also saruman says “and there it will stay until the End” Only the valar have that power
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Jul 10, 2020 12:52
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A wizard did it
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Jul 10, 2020 12:54
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YaketySass posted:I thought Gandalf only established that it was a Great Ring once Bilbo's unaging became flagrant enough that he couldn't attribute it to mundane causes? I've always resolved this by assuming that Gandalf suspected it might be a Great Ring from the beginning, but didn't know, and was essentially in denial. Zippy the Bummer posted:Do we have any idea what the lesser rings can do? Presumably, https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-ite...nered-content=f Shibawanko posted:did the valar recover the silmaril that maglor threw into the sea or even the one maedhros took into the earth? Look, everyone is very clearly pretending that the Arkenstone is not a Silmaril, for political reasons
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Jul 10, 2020 13:03
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Data Graham posted:Then Frodo says "Wait..." and Gandalf's eyes close like "ohhhhhh fuk" I actually thought the best parts of the movies were the "Gandalf has a private reaction only the camera sees" bits. Same when at the council he hears Frodo offer to take it, and immediately goes "aw gently caress, this was God's plan all along, wasn't it?" before putting on a brave face for everyone.
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Jul 10, 2020 14:11
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euphronius posted:Also saruman says “and there it will stay until the End” What power? It's a ring at the bottom of the ocean. If I drop a ring into the Marianas Trench it probably isn't going to be found by anyone before the end of the world either.
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Jul 10, 2020 14:25
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An angler fish, but with a silmaril instead.
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Jul 10, 2020 14:40
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i just remembered that one of the things that initially pisses feanor off is the pronunciation of a certain consonant in quenya. feanor was uh.. a detail oriented sort of person
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Jul 10, 2020 14:44
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sweet geek swag posted:What power? It's a ring at the bottom of the ocean. If I drop a ring into the Marianas Trench it probably isn't going to be found by anyone before the end of the world either. Folklorically the best way to absolutely guarantee that a ring's going to turn up in your fish course at the most embarrassing moment is to huck it into a body of water yelling that it'll never be found.
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Jul 10, 2020 14:55
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Tree Bucket posted:YES I just wanted to make sure this didn't go unappreciated. Well done.
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Jul 10, 2020 15:02
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Runcible Cat posted:Folklorically the best way to absolutely guarantee that a ring's going to turn up in your fish course at the most embarrassing moment is to huck it into a body of water yelling that it'll never be found. Yes, because it is an inversion of the reasonable expectation that an object like that would be forever lost if thrown into a large body of water. And Gandalf even knows that the ring wouldn't be completely secure at the bottom of the sea. And hiding the ring wouldn't even fix anything. Sauron is probably capable of conquering the world without it at this point. There is no reason for Gandalf to believe that the Valar would try to hide the ring, and a lot of reasons for him to believe that they wouldn't. People keep saying that Ulmo would do it, but Ulmo helps people. Hiding the ring so Sauron can stay immortal (or at least bound to Arda) as he conquers Middle-Earth does not help them.
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Jul 10, 2020 15:19
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sweet geek swag posted:Yes, because it is an inversion of the reasonable expectation that an object like that would be forever lost if thrown into a large body of water. And Gandalf even knows that the ring wouldn't be completely secure at the bottom of the sea. And hiding the ring wouldn't even fix anything. Sauron is probably capable of conquering the world without it at this point. There is no reason for Gandalf to believe that the Valar would try to hide the ring, and a lot of reasons for him to believe that they wouldn't. Sauron taunts Denethor with this very fact. Gondor survives the first assault but Sauron had near limitless armies and resources to throw at them, and the West would have for sure lost the war if the ring hadn't been destroyed. Sauron's military might was overwhelming. Every time Denethor looks into the palantir Sauron basically trolls him and shows him his armies and strength. Now, it's Sauron, and so it can perhaps be inferred he was being duplicitous, but iirc even Gandalf admits that Sauron wasn't really lying when he was taunting Denethor with how strong and basically unstoppable his armies were at that point. That's why the plan to fool Sauron into thinking Aragorn claimed the ring works so well. Sauron has lots of doubts when his first assault on Gondor is repulsed. He imagines that Aragorn possibly claimed the ring and used it to help Gondor win that battle. And he supposes that Aragorn, having done so, now believes he has the strength to oppose Sauron directly. For Sauron even with the small force Aragorn sends to Mordor he would have a very real concern about someone like Aragorn or Gandalf claiming the ring and using it to oppose him because it would make victory for the West actually possible. And he knows that without the ring the West has no chance against him, so he imagines what he would do in their position which is use the ring to overthrow himself.
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Jul 10, 2020 15:44
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euphronius posted:Also saruman says “and there it will stay until the End” Yet this still goes against the Istari's literal purpose for being there. If the Valar decided to so decisively intervene with Middle Earth, Olorin of the Maiar would have been clued in, since his entire raison d'etre in Middle Earth is to be their instrument. Them only telling Saruman, and then Saruman only implying it to Gandalf via guarded language where Occam's Razor states that its the current of the river washing it out to sea is immensely suspicious and would give Saruman away nearly as fast as just saying Ulmo took it. You're making one sentence do an absolutely immense amount of heavy lifting that flies in the face of nearly everything else established about the Valar and their relationship to Middle Earth after the sinking of Beleriand and Numenor, which Gandalf would be incredibly aware of and knowledgeable about. Claiming that making a grandiose statement about the security of the Ring at the bottom of the sea means the Valar did it is stretching credulity. The ring was washed into the sea by the currents of the river, and will stay there because the bottom of the sea is impossible to get to as of the discussion, let alone finding a ring there. Edit: claiming that the only reason Saruman of the Many Colors uses overly grandiose language to describe something is to deceive Gandalf is also kinda ignoring his extremely well established penchant for doing exactly that. WoodrowSkillson fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Jul 10, 2020 |
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Jul 10, 2020 16:36
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sweet geek swag posted:Yes, because it is an inversion of the reasonable expectation that an object like that would be forever lost if thrown into a large body of water. And Gandalf even knows that the ring wouldn't be completely secure at the bottom of the sea. And hiding the ring wouldn't even fix anything. Sauron is probably capable of conquering the world without it at this point. There is no reason for Gandalf to believe that the Valar would try to hide the ring, and a lot of reasons for him to believe that they wouldn't. Exactly which is 100% why saruman meant -and Gandalf understood saruman to mean - the valar took the ring and are keeping it safe until the End (which is important eschatological ly) Otherwise as you say and as they say on the Council of Elrond it wouldn’t be safe just on the bottom of an ocean Also this was always lie Saruman told the White Council: it was never true.
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Jul 10, 2020 16:55
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Yet this still goes against the Istari's literal purpose for being there. If the Valar decided to so decisively intervene with Middle Earth, Olorin of the Maiar would have been clued in, since his entire raison d'etre in Middle Earth is to be their instrument. Them only telling Saruman, and then Saruman only implying it to Gandalf via guarded language where Occam's Razor states that its the current of the river washing it out to sea is immensely suspicious and would give Saruman away nearly as fast as just saying Ulmo took it. You're making one sentence do an absolutely immense amount of heavy lifting that flies in the face of nearly everything else established about the Valar and their relationship to Middle Earth after the sinking of Beleriand and Numenor, which Gandalf would be incredibly aware of and knowledgeable about. Saruman was the leader of the order not Gandalf It’s believable Gandalf would think that Saruman received a message for Manwe or whomever that Gandalf did not Also the valar and Eru (it’s unclear who is who sometimes) intervene all the time in lotr. They say they don’t want to intervene or whatever but that’s not what happens
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Jul 10, 2020 16:57
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Gandalf just said like 100 pages before that the valar (or eru) intervened to make sure bilbo got the Ring under the mountain So, he believes that the valar (or eru) intervenes.
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Jul 10, 2020 16:59
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Also most of the stuff about the Istari you mentioned is stuff Tolkien wrote later than the line in the council of Elrond we are talking about.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:00
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euphronius posted:Gandalf just said like 100 pages before that the valar (or eru) intervened to make sure bilbo got the Ring under the mountain Eru's influence is far more in alignment with Gollum's fall into the fire and the concept of eucatastrophe though. Its implied to be far more in accordance with destiny and small tweaks of fate than "Ulmo moseyed up the river and took the Ring" It's the difference between the Illiad and something like God's influence on King Arthur. euphronius posted:Exactly which is 100% why saruman meant -and Gandalf understood saruman to mean - the valar took the ring and are keeping it safe until the End (which is important eschatological ly) SGS said that Gandalf would not believe this lie because the Valar hiding the Ring would not be an act the Valar would do. You just restated it and claimed they would as long as Saruman claims its until "the End." I do not see why anyone in the Council would suddenly believe that 5000 years after the sinking of Beleriand the Valar suddenly began directly intervening in the fate of middle earth, never told anyone except Saruman, and even then only did so thousands of years after the fact, and despite their apparent breaking of the edict of Manwe, did nothing else to actually help.
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Jul 10, 2020 17:41
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thumper57 posted:I actually thought the best parts of the movies were the "Gandalf has a private reaction only the camera sees" bits. Same when at the council he hears Frodo offer to take it, and immediately goes "aw gently caress, this was God's plan all along, wasn't it?" before putting on a brave face for everyone. “What does your heart tell you?” *gandalf’s face slowly changes from despair to hope and his eyes gleam a little* “That Frodo is alive.”
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Jul 10, 2020 17:47
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yeah ian mckellen is the best part of those movies
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Jul 10, 2020 18:07
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i read a little bit more about the new series:quote:Who’s attached to the series? this is making it sound dumb and terrible. i wasn't expecting anything better than a deeply flawed interpretation like the jackson movies, but this sounds like they're just going to make gamer thrones in numenor. there are already perfectly good human bad guys even in the skeleton of the story which exists in the silmarillion (ar adunakhor, ar gimilzor, gimilkhad, ar pharazon, take your pick) so the fact that they feel the need to "invent" an evil character already tells me that this will be tolkien in name only i kind of hate all other "fantasy" and i really dont think tolkien should be treated in the same way
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Jul 10, 2020 18:20
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Shibawanko posted:yeah ian mckellen is the best part of those movies I'm gonna say either him or the music.
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Jul 10, 2020 18:28
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"Beldor", "Oren", and "Tyra" sounds like they just pulled the names from their Thursday night D&D sessions.
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Jul 10, 2020 18:45
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The music is perfect but the Return of the King extended edition ruined one of McKellen's line reads by using an alternate take. In the theatrical release when Pippin suddenly realizes the weight of responsibility he's taken on by swearing to Denethor, Gandalf, sounding amused, goes "you're in the service of the Steward now. You'll have to do as you're told. Peregrin Took, Guard of the Citadel." But the extended cut uses a take where Gandalf is choking and coughing on his tobacco and his pretty much shouts the line like he's Michael Gambon being shouty Dumbledore.
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Jul 10, 2020 18:46
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Eru's influence is far more in alignment with Gollum's fall into the fire and the concept of eucatastrophe though. Its implied to be far more in accordance with destiny and small tweaks of fate than "Ulmo moseyed up the river and took the Ring" It's the difference between the Illiad and something like God's influence on King Arthur. They are intervening in the story of the book we are talking about! The existence of the Wizards is itself an intervention of the valar. Gandalf gets sent back later himself, which is as direct and intervention as I can think of. Why wouldn't Gandalf, who is literally a reification of Valar intervention, believe that the valar would intervene? As I said above, earlier in the book, before the Council of Elrond, he tells frodo that the valar (or arguable Eru) already intervened to get Bilbo the Ring. So he is predisposed to this kind of thinking.
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Jul 10, 2020 18:48
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Pham Nuwen posted:"Beldor", "Oren", and "Tyra" sounds like they just pulled the names from their Thursday night D&D sessions. yeah if theres one thing i hate about derivative fantasy, it's the names they come up with. tolkien didn't just invent names from whole cloth, they are built from parts with specific meanings that apply to the character then later works either just steal the names outright (google "caranthir" and see what you get), or come up with embarrassing bullshit that vaguely sounds like tolkien but which is actually meaningless
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Jul 10, 2020 18:52
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Hate to tell yall this but The Amazon thing is not gonna be good The beat we can hope for is tawdry comedy, like Sexy Shelob from thst video game
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Jul 10, 2020 19:01
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euphronius posted:They are intervening in the story of the book we are talking about! i always thought the wizards, by being physically incarnate, weren't really directly "connected" to the valar anymore and basically had to figure out for themselves how to solve problems. to assume a physical form is to a divine being basically like the fall is to humans, a big part of what weakens melkor and sauron is that they insist on assuming physical form in the world (and thereby become bound up in its transient matter, attachments and sin etc), and that's also what gets saruman in the end. they weren't sent to middle earth with instructions like "do this and this", they are flawed entities who have to act on faith and do the best they can, like humans and elves, only more knowledgeable and more powerful. so they wouldn't really know what is and isn't an intervention (and an intervention by eru is never overt anyway, it always has some kind of plausible deniability where it looks like a contingent event)
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Jul 10, 2020 19:06
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Imagine being the guy who spends not less than one hundred million and up to one billion U.S. dollars for a result that will make Peter Jackson’s hobbit movies look good
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Jul 10, 2020 19:09
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i think ive said this before too but i think that when the istari came to middle earth, there must have been some degree of "forgetting" valinor. as beings who existed before the earth itself, they must know after all that the valar cant really be beaten, that god literally exists, and that sauron will lose, but thats not how they act: gandalf has doubts/fears, saruman stupidly turns to sauron, radagast just kind of gets carried away, who knows what the other two were up to. becoming flesh and blood must somehow rupture or muddle that direct link to the divine so that they are required to have faith in, as opposed to merely knowledge of, the divine
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Jul 10, 2020 19:15
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Shibawanko posted:yeah if theres one thing i hate about derivative fantasy, it's the names they come up with. tolkien didn't just invent names from whole cloth, they are built from parts with specific meanings that apply to the character I'm willing to forgive the naming conventions in The Witcher because of that story's multiverse mechanics meaning (and because Caranthir was a good boss fight in the games) and that it doesn't take itself seriously, but a lot of other Tolkien names just seem to be distilled from an initial source ripping off Tolkien until they become stock fantasy names.
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Jul 10, 2020 19:32
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Hate to tell yall this but skasion posted:And taking Hurin back to Angband he set him in a couch of stone upon a high place of Thangorodrim, from which he could see afar the land of Amazon in the west and the lands of Warner Brothers to the south. There he was bound by the power of Morgoth; and Morgoth standing beside him cursed him again and set his power upon him, so that he could not move from that place, or die, until Morgoth should release him. 
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Jul 10, 2020 19:32
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Surely the estate can't be so hard up for cash that they'd back something like what that sounds like?
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Jul 10, 2020 19:43
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Data Graham posted:Surely the estate can't be so hard up for cash that they'd back something like what that sounds like? Course not, but if the cash is on offer, why wouldn’t they? Now that Chris is gone I seriously doubt that any of them care the way as he did about LOTR as life’s work/sacred object.
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Jul 10, 2020 19:53
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Data Graham posted:Surely the estate can't be so hard up for cash that they'd back something like what that sounds like? They have a limited window of time before they lose the rights totally. Might as well cash in now while they still can.
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Jul 10, 2020 20:07
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Ginette Reno posted:Sauron taunts Denethor with this very fact. Gondor survives the first assault but Sauron had near limitless armies and resources to throw at them, and the West would have for sure lost the war if the ring hadn't been destroyed. Sauron's military might was overwhelming. Every time Denethor looks into the palantir Sauron basically trolls him and shows him his armies and strength.
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Jul 10, 2020 20:13
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Shibawanko posted:i read a little bit more about the new series: ugh gently caress OFF i hate will poulter and think the idea of casting him as a "hardened warrior" is laughable Mameluke fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Jul 10, 2020 |
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Jul 10, 2020 20:24
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