BattleCON Pickup Match: Byron vs Ottavia

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > The Game Room > BattleCON Pickup Match: Byron vs Ottavia

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Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

edit up. wolery, where you want to be?

and afterwards, signalnoise, how far you backing up?

# ? Jul 5, 2014 06:06

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 08:22

Wol: Dec 15, 2012; See you in the
UNDERDARK

I'll go to...Space 6 if you're counting from the left.

# ? Jul 5, 2014 06:35

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

I'll go where Byron used to be

# ? Jul 5, 2014 14:11

Wol: Dec 15, 2012; See you in the
UNDERDARK

I'll push Ottavia 1 space with Grasp, then use Breathless's On Hit trigger since she'll be at Range 5 after the push.

# ? Jul 5, 2014 21:41

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

Wolery posted:

I'll push Ottavia 1 space with Grasp, then use Breathless's On Hit trigger since she'll be at Range 5 after the push.

Are you being serious right now

# ? Jul 5, 2014 21:42

Wol: Dec 15, 2012; See you in the
UNDERDARK

Why not?

# ? Jul 5, 2014 21:49

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

Wow I just looked that up, that's the most bullshit adjudication I've seen in a very long time

# ? Jul 5, 2014 21:49

Wol: Dec 15, 2012; See you in the
UNDERDARK

Hey, you're still winning. I'm at 6, you're at 8. Byron is just built for complete twattery like this - it's why he's so squishy.

# ? Jul 5, 2014 21:56

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

Wolery posted:

Hey, you're still winning. I'm at 6, you're at 8. Byron is just built for complete twattery like this - it's why he's so squishy.

No. I refuse to believe that the people who designed this game designed characters around poorly worded rules.

Honestly I'm not even close to convinced that's how that's supposed to be adjudicated.

# ? Jul 5, 2014 21:59

Wol: Dec 15, 2012; See you in the
UNDERDARK

How's that poorly worded? Every single game I can think of lets a player choose the order of operations when they have multiple triggers go off at the same time. In any case, Byron was definitely intended to have a bit of wiggle room when playing with ranges. Why else would Smoke have On Hit: Move opponent 1 space?

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:03

Misandu: Feb 28, 2008; STOP.
Hammer Time.

Yea most games like this let the player choose the order that effects resolve in. My guess is that on the actual CARD it's stated something more like "On Hit: Player at Range 5..."

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:13

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

Wolery posted:

How's that poorly worded? Every single game I can think of lets a player choose the order of operations when they have multiple triggers go off at the same time. In any case, Byron was definitely intended to have a bit of wiggle room when playing with ranges. Why else would Smoke have On Hit: Move opponent 1 space?

The Rulebook posted:

If a player has multiple triggered effects with the same trigger, then he chooses what order to activate them.

Ok so your reading of the rule is:

code:

Begin activation
    Hit
        Trigger check (Chosen)
            Activate triggered effect
        Trigger check (Last)
            Activate triggered effect

My reading of the trigger effects rule is:

code:

Begin activation
    Hit
        Trigger check
            Activate triggered effect (Chosen)
            Activate triggered effect (Last)

You don't see how this is poorly worded?

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:13

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

signalnoise posted:

No. I refuse to believe that the people who designed this game designed characters around poorly worded rules.

Honestly I'm not even close to convinced that's how that's supposed to be adjudicated.

Honestly, I'm really surprised how good this game is despite how poorly worded the rules are.

But a player getting to decide which order he uses for otherwise simultaneous actions is not a part of that problem. :v:

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:14

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

Misandu posted:

Yea most games like this let the player choose the order that effects resolve in. My guess is that on the actual CARD it's stated something more like "On Hit: Player at Range 5..."

On the card it's "On hit, range 5:" not "On hit: range 5"

Tollymain posted:

Honestly, I'm really surprised how good this game is despite how poorly worded the rules are.

But a player getting to decide which order he uses for otherwise simultaneous actions is not a part of that problem.

What I'm arguing is that these actions are not simultaneous, and are in fact backtracking the turn order

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:17

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

Got it- In the attack phase, it goes like this

4A. Active attack
I. Perform before activating effects
II. Check range
III. If in range, perform on hit effects
IV. If the attack hit, do damage

I'm arguing that range checks do in fact happen before on hit

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:20

Misandu: Feb 28, 2008; STOP.
Hammer Time.

signalnoise posted:

Ok so your reading of the rule is:

code:

Begin activation
    Hit
        Trigger check (Chosen)
            Activate triggered effect
        Trigger check (Last)
            Activate triggered effect

My reading of the trigger effects rule is:

code:

Begin activation
    Hit
        Trigger check
            Activate triggered effect (Chosen)
            Activate triggered effect (Last)

You don't see how this is poorly worded?

Most games I've played have you resolve effects in their entirety when you get to them. Your version requires you to look at all possible triggers for a given effect, rule out which ones aren't relevant, then play out the results of the ones that are. This reading of the rules allows you to choose the order that effects are checked and triggered, helping to make sure that effects or parts of effects aren't forgotten.

I dunno I guess I see where you're coming from now that you've explained it but the games I've played have taught me to resolve effects fully before moving on to the next one for the sake of clarity.

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:22

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

Misandu posted:

Most games I've played have you resolve effects in their entirety when you get to them. Your version requires you to look at all possible triggers for a given effect, rule out which ones aren't relevant, then play out the results of the ones that are. This reading of the rules allows you to choose the order that effects are checked and triggered, helping to make sure that effects or parts of effects aren't forgotten.

I dunno I guess I see where you're coming from now that you've explained it but the games I've played have taught me to resolve effects fully before moving on to the next one for the sake of clarity.

The turn order is written on the board though

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:23

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

BEAT 8!

Byron Krane
6 Life
Discard 1: Breathless Grasp
Discard 2: Deathless Smoke
Finisher: Soulgate
Mask Counters: 2

Ottavia Six
8 Life
Discard 1: Snapback Burst
Discard 2: Demolition Shot
Finisher: Double Barrel

~~~

ANTE:

-- Ottavia antes Priority 5!

REVEAL:

Byron Krane

Ottavia Six

-- Byron rewrites the battlefield with a Pulse!
-- Byron moves himself and Ottavia directly to any spaces on the board!

END OF BEAT?

Tollymain fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Jul 8, 2014

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:25

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

Alright. I don't want to be the sour grapes guy but I've had too much poo poo today to play the rest of this game with that on my mind. I forfeit. Good game

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:32

Wol: Dec 15, 2012; See you in the
UNDERDARK

Misandu posted:

Yea most games like this let the player choose the order that effects resolve in. My guess is that on the actual CARD it's stated something more like "On Hit: Player at Range 5..."

The online sheet is written as the card is written. If you think Battlecon is a consistently, tightly worded game, I may have some bad news for you though... :v:

signalnoise posted:

My reading of the trigger effects rule is:
code:
Begin activation
    Hit
        Trigger check
            Activate triggered effect (Chosen)
            Activate triggered effect (Last)
You don't see how this is poorly worded?

Why on earth would it work that way? Screwing over Byron and only Byron would be the only reason for it to work like that, and it'd be pretty counterintuitive with the idea of "resolving effects in any order you please". The way you're looking at it, a player has to check for the validity of the trigger at one time, then remember whether or not it was valid and resolve it at a different time. That's two different points in time where you have to care and think about the trigger. The way I'm reading it, the trigger only matters at one instance in time. You decide to use the trigger, and the trigger resolves itself in its entirety - without having to look back to or remember previous game states - at that time. A competent designer is going to make the fiddly little aspects of their game simple rather than complex if they can help it.

By the way, I'm serious with what I said about Smoke. If you're trying to figure out whether or not Byron was meant to be able to move opponents into the range he wants and then take a furious poo poo on them, ask yourself: Why does Smoke have the effect "On Hit: Move the opponent up to 1 space"? How does that benefit his kit at all? The one and only reason for him to have it is if it lets him shuffle opponents into the kill zone.

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:34

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

All right, everybody take a deep breath.

Wolery, you got what you wanted; signalnoise, you're still winning :v:

Go take a break, do something to blow off steam, then come back and let me know if you're serious about the forfeit.

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:38

Misandu: Feb 28, 2008; STOP.
Hammer Time.

Yea I know the game's not exactly consistent, no worries there. Sorry signalnoise I wasn't trying to dump on your or anything, I see where you're coming from now but I think checking On Hit triggers during the Range Check portion of the turn is a little un-intuitive to me is all.

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:44

gutterdaughter: Oct 21, 2010; keep yr head up, problem girl

Official answer from D. Brad Talton.

Talton posted:

Yes, you can, and the same is true for Grasp

Smoke works in conjunction with most of Byron's effects, making it especially handy for setting up the more difficult range effects.

# ? Jul 5, 2014 22:54

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

OK. I apologize. poo poo happened, my tolerance for surprises was low, and I actually chose that last Ottavia pair with that Byron pair in mind, because I figured if I got hit it would be an acceptable trade. So I was surprised and I still think it's extremely poor wording and design, but if you want to keep going I will keep going.

# ? Jul 8, 2014 01:06

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

The current discards are wrong btw

# ? Jul 8, 2014 03:43

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

what wrong discards? :v:

Wolery, where do you want the standups to go?

# ? Jul 8, 2014 06:23

Wol: Dec 15, 2012; See you in the
UNDERDARK

I'll put Ottavia aaaaall the way over to the right and I'll put myself one space to the left of where I am now (two spaces away from Mrs. O)

Wol fucked around with this message at 09:18 on Jul 8, 2014

# ? Jul 8, 2014 09:15

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

BEAT 8! AGAIN!

Byron Krane
6 Life
Discard 1: Breathless Grasp
Discard 2: Deathless Smoke
Finisher: ~~Soulgate~~
Mask Counters: 2

Ottavia Six
8 Life
Discard 1: Anti-Personnel Drive
Discard 2: Snapback Burst
Finisher: Double Barrel

~~~

ANTE:

-- Ottavia antes Priority 5!

REVEAL:

Byron Krane

Ottavia Six

CLASH!

Byron Krane

Ottavia Six

CLASH!

Byron Krane

Ottavia Six

-- Ottavia can't lock on!
-- Ottavia is the active character this beat!

START OF BEAT:

-- Byron retreats 1 space!

ACTIVE CHARACTER

ACTIVATION:

-- Ottavia lashes out with Demolition Strike!
-- Demolition Strike has a Range of 1! It misses!

AFTER ACTIVATING:

-- Ottavia advances 4 spaces!

REACTIVE CHARACTER

ACTIVATION:

-- Byron unleashes Heartless Burst!
-- Heartless Burst has a Range of 3-5! It misses!

END OF BEAT

Tollymain fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Jul 10, 2014

# ? Jul 8, 2014 09:23

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

new pairs please

# ? Jul 9, 2014 02:00

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

I think I know what's coming but I can't really do anything about it

# ? Jul 9, 2014 02:21

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

is it caster supremacy?

# ? Jul 9, 2014 02:25

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

basically yes

# ? Jul 9, 2014 02:26

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

noob ace supplies

# ? Jul 9, 2014 06:22

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

how far you gonna run wol?

# ? Jul 10, 2014 02:10

Wol: Dec 15, 2012; See you in the
UNDERDARK

Just the 1.

# ? Jul 10, 2014 02:45

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

I'll move four, so I'm 2 spaces away on the left side. I like being P1 as I can't do shoryukens to the left

# ? Jul 10, 2014 02:56

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

BEAT 9!

Byron Krane
6 Life
Discard 1: Heartless, Burst
Discard 2: Breathless, Grasp
Finisher: ~~Soulgate~~
Mask Counters: 2

Ottavia Six
8 Life
Discard 1: Demolition, Strike
Discard 2: Anti-Personnel, Drive
Finisher: Double Barrel

~~~

ANTE:

-- Ottavia antes Priority 4!

REVEAL:

Byron Krane

Ottavia Six

-- Ottavia can't lock on!
-- Ottavia is the active character this beat!

ACTIVE CHARACTER

ACTIVATION:

-- Ottavia tries to latch on with her Snapback Grasp!
-- Snapback Grasp has a Range of 2~4! Byron is hit!

ON HIT:

-- Ottavia pushes Byron 1 space!
-- Snapback Grasp has a Power of 2!
-- Byron has Stun Guard 2!
-- Byron takes 2 damage, but his defenses hold!

ON DAMAGE:

-- Byron loses a Mask Counter!

AFTER ACTIVATING:

-- Ottavia retreats 1 space!

REACTIVE CHARACTER

ACTIVATION:

-- Byron opens fire with Faceless Shot!
-- Faceless Shot has a Range of 1~5! Ottavia is hit!

ON HIT:

-- Ottavia cannot hit Byron for the rest of the beat!
-- Faceless Shot has a Power of 4!
-- Ottavia has no defenses!
-- Ottavia takes 4 damage and is stunned!

Tollymain fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jul 13, 2014

# ? Jul 10, 2014 03:02

Tollymain: Jul 9, 2010; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

need movement resolutions

# ? Jul 11, 2014 17:40

signalnoise: Mar 7, 2008; i was told my old av was distracting

Byron pushed back one, I'm in the corner, 4 spaces away.

# ? Jul 11, 2014 17:57

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# ? Jun 2, 2024 08:22

Wol: Dec 15, 2012; See you in the
UNDERDARK

Well. Now I have only one Mask left and you're one hit away from death in terms of the grand majority of things I can do. Let's get dangerous! :getin:

# ? Jul 11, 2014 18:27

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > The Game Room > BattleCON Pickup Match: Byron vs Ottavia

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