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Arkeus posted:Are they attacking the church and its believers? The subtext is that there was never proof about Lonato's son, and everyone you meet in your mission about Lonato seems like they are defending Lonato rather than attacking the church. Not only that, but Ash's Paralogue has him learning more things about it, and it seems he believes the whole thing was a set up by Rhea to show off the power of the church. If you do the Ashe and Catherine supports, it turns out that Lonato's son was actually involved in a real plot... to murder Rhea... though he was very much an influenced foot soldier patsy rather than some mastermind. So it's not really inappropriate for her to retaliate against him, but actually showing mercy (which I am not sure she is capable of, at all), likely would have avoided what happened with Lonato who was by all accounts a pretty good person (and who in particular helped Ashe when he tried to cause him harm rather than punishing him).
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Aug 7, 2019 19:38
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Basically the moral of this game is: Nobody here is without good cause. Everyone here is wrong. Except Claude. Claude has his head on straight.
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Aug 7, 2019 19:48
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Nah, Edelgard is a better person than Claude. Being nice isn't the same as being good.
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Aug 7, 2019 20:03
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Viscardus posted:Nah, Edelgard is a better person than Claude. Being nice isn't the same as being good. Edelgard was willing to launch a bloody 5 and a half year war in an effort to expand her empire for concepts she only partially understood. Good intentions you're willing to sacrifice the lives of thousands, if not tens of thousands, for does not a good person make.
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Aug 7, 2019 20:06
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Adder Moray posted:Basically the moral of this game is: Nobody here is without good cause. Everyone here is wrong. Except Claude. Claude has his head on straight. I wonder how Claude is portrayed in other routes. In the BE route, it's fairly interesting that he kinda... expects everyone else to be like him. So he just doesn't understand Judith or Hilda dying, because obviously he would have surrendered in their cases, and he told them to! It just doesn't occur to him that they were dedicated to the cause, as he himself isn't. Adder Moray posted:Edelgard was willing to launch a bloody 5 and a half year war in an effort to expand her empire for concepts she only partially understood. My impression was that she had no say on the war beginning, just the exact timeframe of it. Whole TWS had been preparing for that war for a LONG time, and it was coming with or without her. Arkeus fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 20:08
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Arkeus posted:My impression was that she had no say on the war beginning, just the exact timeframe of it. Whole TWS had been preparing for that war for a LONG time, and it was coming with or without her. I didn't read things that way, but let me answer that reading: So instead of using her time at school to build closer bonds with the next rulers of the continent and turn the full might of Fodlan on the architects of most of her suffering, she instead uses it as an opportunity to rebuild her empire, up to and including assassinating the two people who could stand in her way before they have done anything against her in order to set her war machine against the church for the crime of sanctioning the Kingdom's efforts to govern themselves as opposed to being a part of the Empire. She then does nothing about the true enemy (though Hubert thankfully probably cleaned up that mess in the shadows).
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Aug 7, 2019 20:22
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Adder Moray posted:Edelgard was willing to launch a bloody 5 and a half year war in an effort to expand her empire for concepts she only partially understood. I already made a big post about this in the other thread, so I'll just link it here. Evaluating morality purely on the basis of who initiates overt violence is ultimately naive, both in real life and in discussing silly video game stories.
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Aug 7, 2019 20:23
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Adder Moray posted:I didn't read things that way, but let me answer that reading: So instead of using her time at school to build closer bonds with the next rulers of the continent and turn the full might of Fodlan on the architects of most of her suffering, she instead uses it as an opportunity to rebuild her empire, up to and including assassinating the two people who could stand in her way before they have done anything against her in order to set her war machine against the church for the crime of sanctioning the Kingdom's efforts to govern themselves as opposed to being a part of the Empire. You seem very confused about Edelgard's motivations. She does not consider Those Who Slither the true enemy (or the primary one, at least), despite the fact that they are the architects of her personal suffering. She is not primarily motivated by her own pain; she is motivated by the pain she sees in the world, most of which is caused by the Church and the nobility. She has no interest in rebuilding her empire as anything but a means to an end. Her greatest wish is to give it all up as soon as she can, and that's exactly what she does once her goals are accomplished. You seem to think that she hates the Church for sanctioning the Kingdom's separatism, which is just... not a thing. Like, that's not why she hates the Church at all. If anything, it's the reverse: whatever animosity she has toward the Kingdom is based on its being the defender of the Church and the nobility. You seem to fundamentally misunderstand her motivations, which makes me think that you're not really familiar with what happens on her route.
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Aug 7, 2019 20:30
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Viscardus posted:I already made a big post about this in the other thread, so I'll just link it here. Her ideals are that a singular empire with a singular ruler and no noble class or church able to check said ruler's power is inherently superior to three separate nations with varying degrees of checks on leadership due to two less than ideal systems in the nobility and the church. Congrats, what a revolutionary. Stripping the power from everyone but the Empress. How very moral of her. Being motivated by your ideals instead of your pain is in no way inherently morally superior. Not to mention she was absolutely motivated by personal pain. Of seeing the noble ministers take power from her father and distribute it amongst themselves. What a coincidence her plan not only reverses that, but ensures it can't happen again. Adder Moray fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 20:35
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Adder Moray posted:Her ideals are that a singular empire with a singular ruler and no noble class or church able to check said ruler's power is inherently superior to three separate nations with varying degrees of checks on leadership due to two less than ideal systems in the nobility and the church. She both stands down AND ends the power of the nobility at the end of her path. The game explicitly says this. How is that not morally superior to the rule of a 995 year old forever-pope?
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Aug 7, 2019 20:41
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Taear posted:She both stands down AND ends the power of the nobility at the end of her path. She stands down in her old age and she chooses her successor. This is some of the most dictatorial bullshit possible. I'm not arguing against Edelgard being less bad than forever pope. I'm arguing Edelgard is absolutely not the most "moral" of the three lords. Also, at least forever pope had a degree of checks and balances in place. The church was only free to do what it wished in so far as it didn't piss off too many powers. Now there is only one power. Adder Moray fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 20:45
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Viscardus the fundamental disagreement we will always have is for you, the end justifies the means. So it doesn't matter how many people have to die, so long the revolution comes and brings with it positive change, then the revolution is justified. Except both Claude and Dimitri's routes also end with positive change sweeping Fodlan and neither needed to instigate a bloody conflict. Yes, with the positive influence of Byleth Edelgard is tempered, but she is still a murderer who plotted the deaths of people for no crime other than the circumstances of their birth because it would be convenient, one who can callously murder the innocent out of convenience is evil. Without Byleth the depths of how far she's willing to go and her vile nature show themselves in full. For one who claims to be replacing a system of the strong trampling on the weak, she sure doesn't seem to give much of a gently caress about the weak getting trampled by her. Edelgard has a mix of two other 'revolutionaries' in Fire Emblem. Zephiel and Ashnard.
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Aug 7, 2019 20:46
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Viscardus posted:Evaluating morality purely on the basis of who initiates overt violence is ultimately pretty legitimate here in Fire Emblem: Sacred Shell Shock? No one in BE/Church route spends part 2 in a cheerful mood (except Caspar, shine on you crazy diamond). Airspace fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 20:46
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From all accounts is Dimitri even aware of the existence of the slither fuckers, let alone does he do anything about it like all the other leaders
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Aug 7, 2019 20:48
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Getting rid of the church was worth it imo
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Aug 7, 2019 20:51
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Jerry Manderbilt posted:From all accounts is Dimitri even aware of the existence of the slither fuckers, let alone does he do anything about it like all the other leaders Dimitri is the most far removed from Those that slither. Beyond dealing with his PTSD and other issues, he only really learns about them in relation for the Tragedy.
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Aug 7, 2019 20:52
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Adder Moray posted:Her ideals are that a singular empire with a singular ruler and no noble class or church able to check said ruler's power is inherently superior to three separate nations with varying degrees of checks on leadership due to two less than ideal systems in the nobility and the church. You're literally making up stuff that is directly contradicted by the game. We never see exactly what the political system Edelgard is creating looks like. I think this is mostly for the best, because it would be a little on the nose if she just spontaneously invented democracy or something. If you want to imagine that it's a totally autocratic empire, you can, of course, but I don't really think that's particularly fair either, based on the way she talks about equality and meritocracy. Ultimately, the game is not going to give a precise manifesto or anything, so you have to imagine what it might look like. If you want to be uncharitable, of course, you can, but acting like this is the most natural interpretation is pretty questionable. But there are two main problems with your argument here. The first one is that you are completely ignoring just how incredibly awful the current system is. Even the characters who largely defend the status quo have problems with it; it's not really a matter for debate that the nobility and crest system is extremely hosed up. So it's not even clear that the autocratic empire you're envisioning would actually be any worse than what actually exists. Second, and most importantly, you keep ignoring the fact that she gives up power. She doesn't actually want to be the emperor for any longer than she needs to to destroy the Church, the nobility, and Those Who Slither. Arguing that she's in it for her own power and glory just doesn't work if her greatest desire is not to have those things. And yes, of course she is partially motivated by her own pain and her own experiences. What I said was that it's not her primary motivation, which it clearly isn't, since the Church has done very little to hurt her personally except indirectly.
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Aug 7, 2019 20:56
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We see many examples on how the Crest system is far worse than nobility as it existed in real life. There is verifiable proof of whether a child is 'useful' or not, many nobles have multiple wives to try and try to produce a viable heir like Henry VIII on steroids. Those without crests are thrown away by some families. Like imagine how much harder it would be to dislodge the nobility if they had magic proof that their bloodline really was special.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:05
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Viscardus posted:You're literally making up stuff that is directly contradicted by the game. She is Empress until she gets old and steps down. Her ending card tells us this. And then she even chooses her own successor. This is literally what real life dictators do. But no, it just so happened that she needed to be in charge until her later years before the Empire was ready to go on without her. And there is absolutely nothing autocratic about choosing your own successor. Nope nope. Viva la Revolution and our pure of heart Empress for not-quite-life. And once again, your statement was that her efforts to spill an ocean of innocent blood in her efforts to to build an empire unchecked by any other power makes her a better person than Claude and Dimitri. Stop trying to muddy the waters by pointing out that the status quo is baf. Because a three of them were perfectly aware of this and planning to work against it. One of them just so happened to decide she was alright starting a war to do it.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:10
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Onmi posted:Viscardus the fundamental disagreement we will always have is for you, the end justifies the means. So it doesn't matter how many people have to die, so long the revolution comes and brings with it positive change, then the revolution is justified. Except both Claude and Dimitri's routes also end with positive change sweeping Fodlan and neither needed to instigate a bloody conflict. Yes, with the positive influence of Byleth Edelgard is tempered, but she is still a murderer who plotted the deaths of people for no crime other than the circumstances of their birth because it would be convenient, one who can callously murder the innocent out of convenience is evil. Without Byleth the depths of how far she's willing to go and her vile nature show themselves in full. I don't think it's as simple as the ends justifying the means or not. In real life that sort of question is always contextual. Besides the extremely rare completely devoted pacifist, everyone believes that violence is justified under at least some circumstances. Condemning Edelgard merely because she instigates a war is lazy, I feel, unless you truly put yourself in the aforementioned "complete pacifist" category (in which case the other factions are just as bad anyway for fighting back). If you believe that only defensive violence can ever be justified, okay, but you still need to articulate and defend that position; you can't simply take it for granted. Personally, I don't take the position that any positive change is automatically worth it whatever the cost: it's a contextual question. Again, I don't want to go too far into real-life political questions, but I am deeply suspicious of the sort of person who, say, condemns the Russian Revolution because they're more horrified by the murder of the Tsar's family than the countless nameless children who starved to death under his rule. Again, the Twain quote I mentioned is a good formulation of this issue, I think. The fact of the matter is that we don't have a lot of concrete information about the situation in Fódlan, and it's ultimately difficult to "prove" that the cost of Edelgard's war is less than the cost of the generations of oppression that will continue under everyone else. If you want to believe that people will be just as well-off in the end with Dimitri, despite the continued oppressive presence of the Church, the nobility, and Those Who Slither, well, I guess you can. But it sounds to me a lot like saying that actually, if the French people had just been a little more patient they might have gotten a better king. Edelgard sees the problems more clearly than anyone else, and she's willing to do whatever it takes to solve them. And she does, if you help her. You get to liberate humanity and create a future far more drastically different than the modest improvements provided by the other paths. That inclines me to say that the cost is worth it. And one more thing: it's flat-out wrong to say that Edelgard is callous about those who die along the way. We repeatedly see her deeply upset by it and wishing it were not necessary. You can say that that doesn't matter in the end, of course, and that it's still wrong, but it's absolutely unfair to act like she doesn't care about the people who are suffering in her war. Onmi posted:For one who claims to be replacing a system of the strong trampling on the weak, she sure doesn't seem to give much of a gently caress about the weak getting trampled by her. Edelgard has a mix of two other 'revolutionaries' in Fire Emblem. Zephiel and Ashnard. Edelgard is basically the inverse of Zephiel, as far as I can tell. I've never actually played either of those games, so I'm only passingly familiar with the villains. As I said above, though, Edelgard absolutely does care, and it's shown plain as day on her route. She is taking the least harmful path she feels is available. Even if you think she's wrong, I don't really think you can argue that she's not genuine in that respect.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:25
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Viscardus posted:As I said above, though, Edelgard absolutely does care, and it's shown plain as day on her route. She is taking the least harmful path she feels is available. Even if you think she's wrong, I don't really think you can argue that she's not genuine in that respect. I can agree with this, but the thing is, the game tells you right at the start exactly where Edelgard and Dimitri fail as leaders. He's too naive. She's incapable of trust. She had the perfect opportunity to put herself out there and align herself with two future rulers who would each be willing to push back against the system of Nobility and the church itself. Instead, however, she chooses to attempt to murder them because they could be threats and she is incapable of trust.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:29
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Arkeus posted:Are they attacking the church and its believers? The subtext is that there was never proof about Lonato's son, and everyone you meet in your mission about Lonato seems like they are defending Lonato rather than attacking the church. Not only that, but Ash's Paralogue has him learning more things about it, and it seems he believes the whole thing was a set up by Rhea to show off the power of the church. What no it doesn’t, Ashe’s paralouge and later support with Catherine talks about how Christophe was part of a plot to assasinate Rhea.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:30
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Adder Moray posted:I can agree with this, but the thing is, the game tells you right at the start exactly where Edelgard and Dimitri fail as leaders. I wouldn't say Dimitri is naive, it's that he is bugfuck crazy and just wants to tear apart people with his bare hands and is barely able to hold himself back.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:47
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Adder Moray posted:She is Empress until she gets old and steps down. Her ending card tells us this. And then she even chooses her own successor. This is literally what real life dictators do. But no, it just so happened that she needed to be in charge until her later years before the Empire was ready to go on without her. And there is absolutely nothing autocratic about choosing your own successor. Nope nope. Viva la Revolution and our pure of heart Empress for not-quite-life. She makes it clear that she intends to rule only as long as necessary to reform society, and the ending cards confirm this. You're cherry-picking particular things (the fact that is says "later years") and ignoring everything else ("With tireless work and great sacrifice, she reformed the class system to ensure a free and independent society for all" clearly means "she ruled as a tyrannical despot as long as possible", right?). The obvious implication is that it took a while to completely reform society, which, you know, kind of makes sense. But it also implies that she was successful. Oh, but she is implied to have chosen her successor all by herself, despite the fact that all it says is that her successor was worthy. That's just like dictators, who are bad. Unlike monarchs, who wisely allow their children to succeed them. Again, even in the worst case scenario, I'll take Trajan or Hadrian over a roll of the dice that could leave me with Wilhelm II or Carlos the Accursed. I mean, what is your point here, exactly? That the game is a little bit unrealistic in having a pure-of-heart emperor who reforms society to the benefit of everyone? Yeah, okay, sure, but that feels more than a tad hypocritical when you're simultaneously defending the preservation of feudal monarchy. Even if you insist that all the endings are just as good for the people, Edelgard's happy ending for Fódlan is infinitely more realistic than any of the other ones, if that's really your objection. The only way your argument works is by disingenuously interpreting everything about Edelgard in the worst light while simultaneously accepting everything positive about everyone else at face value. It's just silly. Adder Moray posted:And once again, your statement was that her efforts to spill an ocean of innocent blood in her efforts to to build an empire unchecked by any other power makes her a better person than Claude and Dimitri. Stop trying to muddy the waters by pointing out that the status quo is baf. Because a three of them were perfectly aware of this and planning to work against it. One of them just so happened to decide she was alright starting a war to do it. Dimitri and Claude don't fix the problems. Claude doesn't even stick around; he fucks off to Almyra and leaves Byleth to do it. Mildly reforming the nobility and making the Church more tolerant doesn't actually fix any of the problems, it just ameliorates them. More importantly, it's unlikely any of that would have happened without Edelgard anyway! Rhea would still be in charge and any attempt to hurt the power of the nobility would be dead on arrival if Dimitri and/or Claude were unwilling to fight for it. And yes, I do believe that fighting for a good cause makes you a better person than sitting around and hoping that one day you'll get the chance to make things better.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:48
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Eimi posted:I wouldn't say Dimitri is naive, it's that he is bugfuck crazy and just wants to tear apart people with his bare hands and is barely able to hold himself back. He's been driven mad by PTSD (Oh hey Seiros, didn't see you there) He witnessed near everyone he loved be brutally killed, and he's plagued by his own mind conjuring phantoms to demand vengeance. His "Noble Hero" personality is clearly an attempt to keep himself together more than anything.
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Aug 7, 2019 21:59
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also isn't edelgard gonna die young like lysithea anyways? unless one of her paired endings addresses that so her stepping down in her "later years" might be like a decade at the max, lmao
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Aug 7, 2019 22:00
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Adder Moray posted:I can agree with this, but the thing is, the game tells you right at the start exactly where Edelgard and Dimitri fail as leaders. I agree that Edelgard's biggest flaw is her unwillingness to trust people. Not coincidentally, this is what Byleth's presence helps fix for her: when she realizes that someone cares enough about her to trust her despite her apparent betrayal, she becomes more willing to trust in others going forward. This is ultimately what makes her successful in her own route where she fails in the others. All of the faction leaders have something like this, where Byleth's presence helps them overcome their greatest flaw. I already wrote a bit about the whole assassination thing, and suffice it to say that I'm not entirely convinced the point was actually to assassinate them (because it doesn't make a lot of sense, for a few reasons). That said, she's probably right not to trust Dimitri, who is so delusionally paranoid that he believes that she orchestrated the assassination of his father and her mother when they were literally children. As for whether their assassination would be justified if there really were a good reason to believe it would contribute to her goals, I think that's a much more difficult question. Even if you view it as straight-up evil or whatever, though, you can just as easily say that her later behaviour demonstrates that she's grown beyond that. It's hard to say, because unfortunately the game never really engages with it, and we never learn what she was actually thinking or how she feels about it afterwards. It's just left as a bit of a question mark (as is most of the stuff she does as the Flame Emperor, really).
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Aug 7, 2019 22:02
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SyntheticPolygon posted:What no it doesn’t, Ashe’s paralouge and later support with Catherine talks about how Christophe was part of a plot to assasinate Rhea. Honestly, it's absolutely hilarious that multiple people are trying to use suspicious statements in Ashe's paralogue as "proof" that Rhea's clearly false flagging the incident. All apparently without help from anyone we ever see in ANY route, given Seteth clearly knows nothing about it, the major church knights know nothing about it, and it's only the suspicious experiments 21 years ago that make Jeralt think something's up, despite being around for decades/centuries. Because, you know, she clearly is fine with desecrating the graves of those close to her, given it's the same loving faction that's messing around with stuff in Seteth/Flayn's paralogue. Instead of, you know the group that's based right next door to the Western Church, has the tools to imitate crest related stuff to try and fool people into thinking they're messengers (or just bribe them), and has a very real reason to want to keep the Central Church distracted for the next few months while they put in place their final preparations for sacking the monastery.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:03
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dmboogie posted:also isn't edelgard gonna die young like lysithea anyways? unless one of her paired endings addresses that Its kind of ambiguous. Its definitely implied she's gonna die young, but on the other hand one of the people who can cure Lysithea (Lindhart) is also one of her staunchest allies and removing her crests like he does for Lysithea in their paired ending would be super on brand for her.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:05
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Viscardus posted:I mean, what is your point here, exactly? That the game is a little bit unrealistic in having a pure-of-heart emperor who reforms society to the benefit of everyone? Yeah, okay, sure, but that feels more than a tad hypocritical when you're simultaneously defending the preservation of feudal monarchy. It's not worth having this conversation on a cell phone keyboard when the person I am having it with can't even seem to keep straight what the debate they decided to kick off was actually about, or are simply willfully refusing to do so. I'll get back to this thing when I have a proper physical keyboard in front of me,l.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:07
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Edie's route deals more comprehensively with social reform because that is what the route is about comparatively to the rest. Golden Deer also involves the Church heavily but I feel it's more in relation to its position as a cultural institution than a social one. It deals with how the Church manipulates and controls Fodlan's developments and prevents exchange between other nations, instead of being as much about crests and nobility. And I don't think the Blions really tackle as much about the societal structures of Fodlan in general, but that's ok each route has different aspects of the world and it characters it focuses on. I honestly don't think the game really cares that much about exploring who makes a better leader between the Lords. It focuses more on using them to explore different ideas and different parts of the world and I think it's pretty easy to engage with the game on that front.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:08
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dmboogie posted:also isn't edelgard gonna die young like lysithea anyways? unless one of her paired endings addresses that Her ending with Lysithea addresses this, as do some of Lysithea's others. If she's paired with Lysithea they explicitly find the means of overcoming the problem while battling Those Who Slither and acquire normal lifespans. Linhardt also discovers a way to remove crests on his own if you pair him with Lysithea. Of course, they don't seem to make any explicit references to Edelgard having the same lifespan problem as Lysithea except when pairing the two of them, so it's also possible to think that those problems were ironed out by the time she got her second crest. Either way, as far as I can tell, none of Edelgard's supports reference her dying young the way Lysithea's do if you don't pair her with someone who helps her solve the problem.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:12
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Adder Moray posted:It's not worth having this conversation on a cell phone keyboard when the person I am having it with can't even seem to keep straight what the debate they decided to kick off was actually about, or are simply willfully refusing to do so. I'll get back to this thing when I have a proper physical keyboard in front of me,l. I apologize if you literally thought that I was claiming you think feudal monarchy is good in real life. I was referring to this: Adder Moray posted:Her ideals are that a singular empire with a singular ruler and no noble class or church able to check said ruler's power is inherently superior to three separate nations with varying degrees of checks on leadership due to two less than ideal systems in the nobility and the church. If you didn't actually mean to imply that the existing system is preferably, then I guess I just don't really understand your point. Do you think that Edelgard's world is better, but not better enough to justify a war? Do you think that they're both exactly the same and actually it's pointless to try to change anything for the better? You seem very determined to argue that all the good things Edelgard aims to do (and actually does in her ending) are in fact bad, so if you could be a bit more clear about what you're arguing that'd probably make this easier.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:21
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the centralization of power from landed, semi-independent aristocrats into the hands of a single monarch via the centralization of military force is like the entire arc of european history from like 1200 to 1700! this was normal, and would have been considered a positive development by a lot of contemporary people! it's depots all the way down! though in our world it was cannons and not mass-produced demonic kaiju things that really did the trick
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Aug 7, 2019 22:35
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Honestly ending feudalism and an even more powerful medieval level of influence catholic church from its reign doesn't seem bad. In the supports and sone of the professor advices you can even talk with Hubert about universal tax paid public education which is his best result. Edelgard also let Brigid declare independence peacefully. The empire wont last once the church stays dismantled. Edelgard is the most interesting Fire Emblem lord to date. C-SPAN Caller fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Aug 7, 2019 |
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Aug 7, 2019 22:37
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Viscardus posted:Her ending with Lysithea addresses this, as do some of Lysithea's others. If she's paired with Lysithea they explicitly find the means of overcoming the problem while battling Those Who Slither and acquire normal lifespans. Linhardt also discovers a way to remove crests on his own if you pair him with Lysithea. Of course, they don't seem to make any explicit references to Edelgard having the same lifespan problem as Lysithea except when pairing the two of them, so it's also possible to think that those problems were ironed out by the time she got her second crest. Either way, as far as I can tell, none of Edelgard's supports reference her dying young the way Lysithea's do if you don't pair her with someone who helps her solve the problem. I figure Linhardt paired with Lysithea means Edelgard gets treatment too. Edelgard has no reason to die with Byleth. Also the no heart beat making Edelgard think Byleth died really played at me, the emotions in the final BE cinematic was a great climax after a hard fight. I swear this game is pushing Byleth/Edelgard as the canon pairing in that route. The writing is so heavy handed.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:41
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edelgard isn't trading feudalism for a modern liberal democracy (or ripping apart a modern liberal democracy to institute feudalism), she's dismantling a postmerovingian-style feudal system and replacing it with a step towards the absolutist monarchies of our own 17th-19th centuries. everyone gets tricked by the anima prussian uniform but it's way more frederick iii or gustav i than either of the kaisers. neither power system is, to a forums poster in tyool 2019, going to be very morally defensible.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:43
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Viscardus posted:Her ending with Lysithea addresses this, as do some of Lysithea's others. If she's paired with Lysithea they explicitly find the means of overcoming the problem while battling Those Who Slither and acquire normal lifespans. Linhardt also discovers a way to remove crests on his own if you pair him with Lysithea. Of course, they don't seem to make any explicit references to Edelgard having the same lifespan problem as Lysithea except when pairing the two of them, so it's also possible to think that those problems were ironed out by the time she got her second crest. Either way, as far as I can tell, none of Edelgard's supports reference her dying young the way Lysithea's do if you don't pair her with someone who helps her solve the problem. Ooph that's real poo poo if you're on El's route. Just cause I didn't ship you and Lindhardt he still got to a support and removing crests affects three important people on that route (El, Byleth, and her) so...ouch.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:47
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Can I say I love that the evil cult aren't the biggest threat, I'm aware they are behind a lot of the things in the world but aren't THE only true threat like the Grimleal assholes in Awakening, I am also glad that Rhea herself isn't just flat out evil, she has legit reasons for her harsh actions, she got hosed over by Nemesis and is a pretty broken person.
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Aug 7, 2019 22:54
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Adder Moray posted:Also, at least forever pope had a degree of checks and balances in place. The church was only free to do what it wished in so far as it didn't piss off too many powers. Now there is only one power. It's fairly heavely hinted that Seiros planned the Kingdom and the Alliance existing back when she helped create the Empire a thousand years ago, long before the Kingdom or Alliance ever existed. They weren't check and balances on her, they were checks and balance on each others so she could control each more effectively. SyntheticPolygon posted:What no it doesn’t, Ashe’s paralouge and later support with Catherine talks about how Christophe was part of a plot to assasinate Rhea. Ash's paralogue has him finding information that he finds suspect, and at the time Catherine was "we don't care about the details, let's just kill them". Christophe was executed for a different crime, not "part of a plot to assassinate Rhea". So at least that part is a cover up. Onmi posted:Viscardus the fundamental disagreement we will always have is for you, the end justifies the means. So it doesn't matter how many people have to die, so long the revolution comes and brings with it positive change, then the revolution is justified. Except both Claude and Dimitri's routes also end with positive change sweeping Fodlan and neither needed to instigate a bloody conflict. Yes, with the positive influence of Byleth Edelgard is tempered, but she is still a murderer who plotted the deaths of people for no crime other than the circumstances of their birth because it would be convenient, one who can callously murder the innocent out of convenience is evil. Without Byleth the depths of how far she's willing to go and her vile nature show themselves in full. Half the time where you lose approval points from Edelgard it's when Belyth doesn't show that she cares about the lives of the weak or the horrors of war. The point of Edelgard's route is she does in fact really feel bad for every incidental deaths and try to minimise them.
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Aug 7, 2019 23:10
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