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TotM also means your Grease or Web or whatever might not actually be where it needs to be because the DM might be pretending differently than you were. It's the only place TotM is slightly worse for casters. Of course, when it comes down to a filibuster you're going to get your way because the DM is invested in advancing the game. So fine, whatever, that area's webbed.
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Sep 26, 2014 21:10
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You mean every party member can't focus like a laser on only what he wants to do? The fighter can't round up every monster by using clicking his class ability on and keep them attacking him (where his stats mean they won't kill him) and the casters might have to fight some enemies themselves? This is a travesty! The fighter can and does have abilities that make it easier to keep enemies engaged with him instead of the rest of the party, when he wants to be stickier. Other classes have abilities that can keep them out of trouble (hiding or the like), or control the battlefield (grease/entangle) to keep enemies away from them. It's not foolproof. But if the tank tangles up 2-3 orcs with a combination of body-blocking, AoO, Sentinel, and actually using offense, while each other party member only has to face 1, he's done his job.
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Sep 26, 2014 21:54
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Gee guys, your games sound so tactically interesting! Each and every fight uses the fascinating tactic of "The front line stands between the monsters and the back line." Wow!
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Sep 26, 2014 21:56
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Better hope the DM doesn't discover the fabled "banana route" tactic those baseball players use as they round first, or that fighter's gonna have trouble!
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Sep 26, 2014 22:00
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Tactical Bonnet posted:Also, I'm a fan of the game being harder without a healer. In what story does a character who gets stabbed twice just get to carry on with his day if he doesn't get magical healing? If you don't have a healer then you'd better make sure you use good tactics and act as a group to minimize damage and spread it evenly among members of the group so everyone can survive the day. Maybe stop painting yourself into a corner with your tongue..?!? Jackard fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Sep 26, 2014 |
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Sep 26, 2014 22:01
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Infinite Karma posted:The fighter can and does have abilities that make it easier to keep enemies engaged with him instead of the rest of the party, when he wants to be stickier. Not really? Unless you mean some of the maneuvers it can get at level 3...even then it's options aren't as good as other, similar classes (Monk, Paladin). Infinite Karma posted:But if the tank tangles up 2-3 orcs with a combination of body-blocking, AoO, Sentinel, and actually using offense, while each other party member only has to face 1, he's done his job. The Fighter in this scenario can literally only react to 1 orc. Body-blocking is only going to work in tight corridors. Honestly the best I think a fighter can do is use Goading and Menacing (the former to encourage the target(s) to focus itself, the latter to just impose Disadvantage in general). Even so, this becomes outclassed by the Monk at level 5, which can just stun everything it hits.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:07
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Jackard posted:who says "losing hit points" equals "stabwounds of such severity that they require magical healing to proceed" Not D&D Next, if p. 74-75 of the Basic Document are to be believed. quote:Hit points represent a combination of physical and They never have represented the purely physical ability to endure pain and injury. This is why they used to have the massive damage rules, and why divine intercession could restore adventurers so quickly. Up until the last few hit points, they weren't supposed to represent any sort of physical harm beyond minor bruises or scrapes. Same reason why a character as max health fights as well as one at 1 hp. Gygax didn't give a gently caress, and said so in the DMG. I can pull representative quote from it later, if you're interested. One of the earliest fan supplements, I.C.E.'s Arms Law/Claw Law, hated this abstraction, produced a series of attack and critical charts to simulate the "I busted his knee cap" and "I stabbed him through the throat" type damage that D&D didn't care to handle. This was way back in 1980. The "HP represents more than a video game life bar" argument is an old one. But it was wrong then, and it's wrong now. D&D's injury system just isn't that detailed.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:18
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A death-spiral where losing HP degrades your combat performance certainly has a place in RPGs, but heroic fantasy certainly isn't it. I completely agree that HP have never represented physical wounds.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:24
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Spoilers Below posted:The "HP represents more than a video game life bar" argument is an old one. But it was wrong then, and it's wrong now. D&D's injury system just isn't that detailed. As you point out there are games out there that cater to "realistic" ideas of medieval combat - RuneQuest, RoleMaster, GURPS, Riddle of Steel, and so on - with called shots and hit locations and ablative armor and blood loss and rolling for blood sepsis and on and on and on. D&D has never been that, in any incarnation, and efforts to try and make it into that sort of game always end up breaking it in hilarious ways.
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Sep 26, 2014 22:33
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Infinite Karma posted:You mean every party member can't focus like a laser on only what he wants to do? The fighter can't round up every monster by using clicking his class ability on and keep them attacking him (where his stats mean they won't kill him) and the casters might have to fight some enemies themselves? This is a travesty! Tell me more about this game you're using for comparison because it sounds pretty rad
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Sep 26, 2014 22:36
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Gort posted:A death-spiral where losing HP degrades your combat performance certainly has a place in RPGs, but heroic fantasy certainly isn't it. I completely agree that HP have never represented physical wounds. To add onto this, the critical hit charts that came out were explicitly about physical wounds happening, their location and their severity. It wouldn't even make sense to say 'well you got stabbed in the arm 5 times in this fight but THIS stab makes you bleed and drop your weapon.'
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Sep 26, 2014 22:55
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mastershakeman posted:To add onto this, the critical hit charts that came out were explicitly about physical wounds happening, their location and their severity. It wouldn't even make sense to say 'well you got stabbed in the arm 5 times in this fight but THIS stab makes you bleed and drop your weapon.' A sample crit chart, published by a genuine corporation and not doodled in the back of a high schooler's notebook. The table ranges in severity from A (not that bad) to E (serious). You'd roll a d100 to see what happened. The basic three charts were piercing, slashing, and crushing, the basic weapon types. Note that even A crits can be lethal, or permanently crippling. 
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Sep 26, 2014 23:21
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Gort posted:A death-spiral where losing HP degrades your combat performance certainly has a place in RPGs, but heroic fantasy certainly isn't it. I completely agree that HP have never represented physical wounds. DM I played with a long long time ago made this a bit more interesting. Whenever you got hit and still had HP, you dodged, or armor deflected it or whatever. It wasn't bad till you were out of HP and damage went straight to your Con, so getting hit with no HP was the real deal and had some painful consequences. I thought it was pretty neat anyway.
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Sep 26, 2014 23:25
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Cainer posted:DM I played with a long long time ago made this a bit more interesting. Whenever you got hit and still had HP, you dodged, or armor deflected it or whatever. It wasn't bad till you were out of HP and damage went straight to your Con, so getting hit with no HP was the real deal and had some painful consequences. I thought it was pretty neat anyway. That's not a million miles from how Star Wars did it. Important characters had hit points and constitution if their hitpoints were gone. Stormtroopers had no hitpoints, they just had constitution.
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Sep 26, 2014 23:43
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Gort posted:That's not a million miles from how Star Wars did it. Important characters had hit points and constitution if their hitpoints were gone. Stormtroopers had no hitpoints, they just had constitution. It was pretty fun, I'm trying to remember if he had his own damage chart thing or if he just winged it. I actually remember playing Star Wars once but man, the balance in that game was all over the place. By the third or forth session, everyone had multi classed out of whatever path they had gone and were Jedi or force sensitive... they were just mountains better then everyone else. I think I was a soldier and I went "force sensitive" for my 2nd or 3rd level and my damage and survivability skyrocketed, its been a long rear end time so I can't remember for sure though. I believe this was after the second movie of the new triligy had come out when we were all filled with Star wars firver.
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Sep 26, 2014 23:50
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A D&D fight that lasts 10 rounds is over in a single minute. A "heroic fighter" who needs an hour's break after every short fight has fitness equivalent to the fat asthmatic kid who's decided to join a BJJ class so he can be a cage fighter. I mean come the gently caress on, 30-60 seconds of going all-out doesn't even bother a person who has done the slightest little bit of conditioning, let alone someone who has worked up to "STR 16 CON 14".
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Sep 27, 2014 00:11
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I stood up real fast once and almost fainted and that was only like two seconds of movement so I can only imagine after a full minute of moving around even the most super heroic individuals are ready to pass out for an hour.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:15
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Cainer posted:DM I played with a long long time ago made this a bit more interesting. Whenever you got hit and still had HP, you dodged, or armor deflected it or whatever. It wasn't bad till you were out of HP and damage went straight to your Con, so getting hit with no HP was the real deal and had some painful consequences. I thought it was pretty neat anyway.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:17
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AlphaDog posted:A D&D fight that lasts 10 rounds is over in a single minute. A "heroic fighter" who needs an hour's break after every short fight has fitness equivalent to the fat asthmatic kid who's decided to join a BJJ class so he can be a cage fighter. I mean come the gently caress on, 30-60 seconds of going all-out doesn't even bother a person who has done the slightest little bit of conditioning, let alone someone who has worked up to "STR 16 CON 14". Agreed! Realism also says this Hit Dice healing from sword wounds in an hour thing is bullshit, so in my 5e games I've removed them entirely. PCs have to rest in town if they can't find magical healing.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:17
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Honestly, I really like the "hit points are actual wounds" theme, but I also like the idea that the fighter, or any PC, recovers from having his guts ripped out by shoving the guts back in there and walking it off. To within a certain limit per day or whatever, of course.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:20
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I enjoy the assumption that wounds heal at the same speed in our world as they do in a world where where people throw giant balls of fire around.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:24
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Dilb posted:Honestly, I really like the "hit points are actual wounds" theme, but I also like the idea that the fighter, or any PC, recovers from having his guts ripped out by shoving the guts back in there and walking it off. To within a certain limit per day or whatever, of course. That's totally unrealistic, what the hell kind of bullshit is that?
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Sep 27, 2014 00:25
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Arivia posted:Agreed! Realism also says this Hit Dice healing from sword wounds in an hour thing is bullshit, so in my 5e games I've removed them entirely. PCs have to rest in town if they can't find magical healing. Hit points aren't sword wounds. You can tell by the way that taking a few of them doesn't reduce your ability to function.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:26
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All this hollering misses the real enemy: D&D's insistence on being a (bad) resource management game.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:26
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AlphaDog posted:A D&D fight that lasts 10 rounds is over in a single minute. ...unless you're playing a pre-3e edition, in which case one round is one minute, and each attack roll is understood to be representative of more action than just a single blow.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:27
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gtrmp posted:...unless you're playing a pre-3e edition, in which case one round is one minute, and each attack roll is understood to be representative of more action than just a single blow. ...in which case needing a whole 10-minute turn to rest after a fight is reasonable, which AD&D explicitly mentions. Even if it does still handle HP recovery in a stupid way, some thought went into that.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:32
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I can't remember and my rulebook is at a friends house: are 4e rounds 6 seconds?
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Sep 27, 2014 00:38
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S.J. posted:I can't remember and my rulebook is at a friends house: are 4e rounds 6 seconds? Yes.
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Sep 27, 2014 00:40
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Really Pants posted:Yes. A shameful RPG
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Sep 27, 2014 00:40
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MonsieurChoc posted:So, how do you do the Monk Air-Juggle Combo again? Because I'm playing a Monk in a D&D5 game and I just reached level 3. I think it's in the wind spells you get with Way of the Four Elements.
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Sep 27, 2014 01:17
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djw175 posted:I enjoy the assumption that wounds heal at the same speed in our world as they do in a world where where people throw giant balls of fire around. Jackard fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Sep 27, 2014 |
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Sep 27, 2014 01:26
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Spoilers Below posted:A sample crit chart, published by a genuine corporation and not doodled in the back of a high schooler's notebook. Where is this crit table from? A friend had this in college and I havent seen it since then.
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Sep 27, 2014 01:35
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spoon daddy posted:Where is this crit table from? A friend had this in college and I havent seen it since then.
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Sep 27, 2014 02:39
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I have a question for Jak, have you run the numbers on Paladin dpr yet?
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Sep 27, 2014 02:44
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spoon daddy posted:Where is this crit table from? A friend had this in college and I havent seen it since then. E: which according to wikipedia is a streamlined version of Rolemaster, welp Jackard fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Sep 27, 2014 |
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Sep 27, 2014 02:58
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Just playing devils advocate here, I'm actually someone who pretty much dislikes most iterations of D&D for the usual reasons. In fact I freaking adored how 4th actually was the first edition of D&D that actually made an attempt to be "good at" being D&D. But I think a lot of people are barking up the wrong tree arguing with some of the more casual players in here. There is a whole heck of a lot of WHAT?! WHY WOULD YOU USE D&D for this, CLEARLY USE FATE/DW/game with actual good mechanics etc etc. The answer is obvious, its because D&D is really the only role-playing game period for 99.9% people with awareness of RPGs. Heck I love apocalypse engine games as much as the next TD goon, but hell those games are a splinter fringe segment of a splinter fringe hobby. For most people good luck finding groups for such games, regardless of how good they are. Most people just don't want to try something weird and out there, or are even actively against trying things that they aren't already comfortable with. People are going to want to play D&D, even the new edition regardless of warts, even if there are better alternatives, it just has too much momentum. It is a tragedy that this is the case, but I really don't see it changing.
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Sep 27, 2014 04:09
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electrigger posted:Just playing devils advocate here, I'm actually someone who pretty much dislikes most iterations of D&D for the usual reasons. In fact I freaking adored how 4th actually was the first edition of D&D that actually made an attempt to be "good at" being D&D. People are trying to change it is the thing, I think. Change has to start somewhere. Edit: And if anything is going to stop D&Ds momentum and cause it to change, I wouldn't be sad for it to be the version of D&D that printed that stupid Intellect Devourer on actual paper. goldjas fucked around with this message at 06:46 on Sep 27, 2014 |
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Sep 27, 2014 04:17
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Strength of Many posted:I have a question for Jak, have you run the numbers on Paladin dpr yet? Paladin DPR is hard to run numbers on because it entirely reliant on spending spell slots, or casting spells - and a few features rely on reactions/are situational(like every feature of oath of vengeance). most features(maybe their spells too, haven't looked to far into them) don't work with ranged weapons, and they don't get the option of ranged fighting style so the best DPR weapons(hand crossbows with crossbow expert and sharpshooter) would probably still be the best consistent damage, but you wouldn't get to use things like divine smite. An oath of divinity paladin could use sacred weapon on it for 1 minute/short rest which would make up for not having ranged weapon style if the paladin had 14 cha. If they use a dueling mastery and a single 1d8 one handed weapon they can get similar weapon damage to a two handed weapon - but weapon damage isn't worth much compared to power attack and you can only get power attack on heavy weapons, or ranged weapons. Because fighters keep getting extra attacks the other martial classes kind of putter out without a consistent scaling feature(like sneak attack). The auras and stuff the paladin brings to the party are pretty baller though.
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Sep 27, 2014 04:30
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Really Pants posted:I think it's in the wind spells you get with Way of the Four Elements. Dammit! I went with Way of the Open hand so that I wouldn't spend all my Ki points at once.
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Sep 27, 2014 05:55
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spoon daddy posted:Where is this crit table from? A friend had this in college and I havent seen it since then. First printing of Rolemaster's Arms Law/Claw Law by ICE games. The open playtest of the upcoming version is available here: http://www.ironcrown.com/ICEforums/index.php?topic=12399.0 , if you don't want to go through the bother of getting an old copy off Amazon.
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Sep 27, 2014 06:34
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