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Shibawanko posted:is tevildo supposed to be a faux-bastardization of tybalt (who is also the "prince of cats") like with atalante/atlantis? Considering one of the forms I think is Tifil, I would say it's not unlikely
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Jul 16, 2020 22:05
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Data Graham posted:Considering one of the forms I think is Tifil, I would say it's not unlikely i dunno why i never realised that luthien obviously sounds like juliet too this brought me here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Luthany quote:Its King was Inwë (or Ing) and he was driven east over the sea by Ossë and became ruler of some peoples. Their descendants, called Angles, Saxons, Jutes (but not Frisians) eventually returned to Luthany, now separated from the Great Lands by a channel as an island. im frisian but apparently tolkien doesnt think im part of the anglosaxon master race the whole early thing where eressea was great britain and specifically warwickshire is out of place and im glad he decided to cut all of that out Shibawanko fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jul 16, 2020 |
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Jul 16, 2020 22:18
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Shibawanko posted:im frisian but apparently tolkien doesnt think im part of the anglosaxon master race Early medieval historian chiming in to take this comment way too seriously. To be fair to Tolkien, I don't think this is a race thing. It's part of the debate about which peoples settled in Britain in the fifth century. IIRC, JRR was of the opinion (based on the Venerable Bede) that it was just Angles, Saxons and Jutes. Other evidence suggests Frisians may have been involved. The matter has never really been settled, but the nature of the debate has changed massively since Tolkien was writing anyway.
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Jul 17, 2020 10:17
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There is no canon so if you think Telvido is canon then he is. Or he isn’t. That is using the word canon like people do for Star Wars. If you think canon means “stuff Tolkien wrote” then telvido is 100% canon
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Jul 17, 2020 10:21
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Data Graham posted:Considering one of the forms I think is Tifil, I would say it's not unlikely Tibert/Thibault/Tybalt is the cat in mediaeval animal stories (like Reynard the Fox and Chanticleer the Cockerel), which is why Tybalt gets the piss taken out of him (giving your kids terrible names they get teased for is nothing new). Tolkien was 100% alluding to that with Tevildo's name.
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Jul 17, 2020 10:53
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Runcible Cat posted:Tibert/Thibault/Tybalt is the cat in mediaeval animal stories (like Reynard the Fox and Chanticleer the Cockerel), which is why Tybalt gets the piss taken out of him (giving your kids terrible names they get teased for is nothing new). Tolkien was 100% alluding to that with Tevildo's name. i never made that connection somehow another one: ingwe is clearly derived from ingwine in beowulf, also seen in "ingvaeonic" i.e. the north sea german languages
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Jul 17, 2020 10:59
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Shibawanko posted:im frisian but apparently tolkien doesnt think im part of the anglosaxon master race not sure where the page got this tbh. the only source i can imagine theyre working from is the Aelfwine of England bits at the end of BOLT 2, which actually says this quote:Eärendel takes refuge with [Ingwë] from the wrath of Ossë, and gives him a draught of limpë (enough to assure immortality). And as noted the Ingwaiwar are the Ingvaeonic peoples who eventually succeed in invading Luthany. Frisians no different from the rest.
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Jul 17, 2020 12:00
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While Tolkien was writing the first book of the Lord of the Rings, World War 2 broke out, and his son Christopher was in the RAF. I was thinking today about how Bilbo gives Frodo the mithril coat, happily giving him something worth 'the whole Shire and everything in it' to protect him, and it struck me that consciously or not the Professor, himself a veteran, might have been thinking of what he would give to keep his son safe.
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Jul 17, 2020 12:45
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euphronius posted:There is no canon so if you think Telvido is canon then he is. Or he isn’t. It's all tales and legends anyway, like e.g. the Iliad based in truth on some level but Tolkien's framework conceit for it is it's all ostensibly stories within the universe, merely found and translated.
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Jul 17, 2020 13:29
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Imagined posted:While Tolkien was writing the first book of the Lord of the Rings, World War 2 broke out, and his son Christopher was in the RAF. I was thinking today about how Bilbo gives Frodo the mithril coat, happily giving him something worth 'the whole Shire and everything in it' to protect him, and it struck me that consciously or not the Professor, himself a veteran, might have been thinking of what he would give to keep his son safe. I never thought of this, but: wow. Very insightful. Thanks!
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Jul 17, 2020 14:51
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Re: the tv show, and any future film adaptation really, To be good, it has to set it's ambitions higher than just fleshing out some background detail for a hexology of movies dating back a decade. Seek to surpass, not supplement (tbf they may very well intend this, I haven't looked up anything) I just think the 1st age + lost/unfinished tales presents a better opportunity for the kind of grand mythological stylish artifice I crave! They should be taking inspiration from stuff like Lang's Die Nibelungen and Eisenstein's Alexander Nevsky, not game of thrones or the witcher* Some of y'all are right, that the Numenor story contains the potential for all that, what with the whole capture Satan and invade heaven plot. But I can't help but feel they are gonna bog it down it with the unnecessary origin story poo poo and never get to the good stuff . . Season 1 Scene: very plain court Minor underling character, that we've spent an oddly long time getting to know: "Sire! Your favorite horse has just died in a messy accident!" Child Ar-Pharazon: "this gift the wise call Death, I like it not!" Season 3 Scene: undecorated tower Underling, a different one, the last one got shivved by a Dunlander in the season finale: "Sire, your mother has died of an upsetting cough, all wrinkled up and spotty, like super gross" Young Ar-Pharazon: "by Eru, I really hate Death a lot now!!" And then they're cancelled before season 5 invasion of valinor *haven't watched the witcher for all I know it could be good, I do have a soft spot for Henry Cavill  I'm just assuming it's more GoT meh
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Jul 18, 2020 02:24
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No The Witcher is r-rated, 1080p Kevin Sorbo Hercules and very much aware of this fact.
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Jul 18, 2020 02:45
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I don't think anything can possibly live up to the nebulous perfect version in the imaginations of the reader. But it'd be nice if someone tried. PJ's LOTR, as flawed as it is, at least tried really hard, and I give it a lot of points for that. I've heard virtually nothing about this production so far, good or bad, so for now I'm content to just let it come as it may, without either getting my hopes up too high, or the reverse.
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Jul 18, 2020 03:27
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If you walk into with the understanding that is a mass audience adaption I think you are being fair Or is it adaptation
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Jul 18, 2020 03:28
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the latter
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Jul 18, 2020 03:50
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I feel like getting familiar with the word "adapt" will be very useful for everyone in this thread going forward
Daikloktos fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Jul 18, 2020 |
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Jul 18, 2020 11:52
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euphronius posted:If you walk into with the understanding that is a mass audience adaption I think you are being fair It's unlikely to be an "adaptation" of existing stuff as much as "fanfic set in an existing roughly-sketched background". Whether it'll be any good or not depends on the writers and what constraints the producers/directors/money puts on them.
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Jul 18, 2020 12:16
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henry cavill is the only good thing about the witcher and i wish theyd have snatched him to play elendil or something
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Jul 18, 2020 13:22
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Shibawanko posted:henry cavill is the only good thing about the witcher and i wish theyd have snatched him to play elendil or something When I first saw the promotional art I was like 'dang, Legolas been hittin' the gym HARD.'
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Jul 19, 2020 17:34
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Shibawanko posted:henry cavill is the only good thing about the witcher and i wish theyd have snatched him to play elendil or something Elendil has to be an older looking guy. Cavill is too young IMO.
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Jul 19, 2020 17:37
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will the show have any black numenoreans?
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Jul 19, 2020 18:13
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ChubbyChecker posted:will the show have any black numenoreans? i imagine ar-pharazon and those who oppose the faithful will be feature prominently yes
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Jul 19, 2020 19:37
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but seriously, i imagine it must be tricky adapting tolkien's works in a modern tv show from a race perspective. as far as i remember, both people form the house of bëor and the house of haldor were described as being light-skinned. now obviously you don't want to have an all-white cast, but that could be at odds with the source material.
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Jul 19, 2020 19:52
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A concern I have is that the show is going to handle Tolkien's already uncomfortable notion of "lesser men" quite poorly and that we'll get another "Viserys wants to take over with an army of savages" situation where a black numenorian becomes leader of the Balchoth or something. On an unrelated note, Dragons and Balrogs aren't beholden to Sauron the way the Nazgul and Sauron's Orcs are, right? The big concern about Durin's Bane or Smaug was that they would join forces with Sauron, but it never seemed like they were responding to his will, only that they shared a common master millenniae earlier and might be inclined to ally themselves. Arc Hammer fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Jul 19, 2020 |
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Jul 19, 2020 19:54
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I could see Smaug making an alliance if sufficient treasure was promised. DB probably out ranked Sauron in the old days, harder to imagine one of them willing to take direction from the other for very long.
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Jul 19, 2020 20:31
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Sauron and Durin's Bane may have been allied in some way. There were black uruks of Mordor in Moria when the Fellowship passed through, and they were pretty recent arrivals: they were the ones who came east up the Silverlode, killed Balin, and besieged the dwarf colony there. This sure sounds like either an alliance or a relationship of military dependency where Sauron sent troops to DB and had reason to believe they wouldn't immediately be run off by the Moria orcs. Perhaps it was in preparation for his planned stroke at Lothlorien as well as just getting rid of DB's dwarf infestation (though you would think DB could deal with it himself). As to the idea of Sauron having dragon allies or servants, I don't think this ever happened. It's suggested in the dwarf appendix or maybe "Quest of Erebor" that Gandalf wanted Smaug dead for fear Sauron could use him to wreck everyone else, but it's kind of hard to imagine how this would actually work. I guess Sauron could offer him some rings to sit on, but it's hard to imagine any means by which you could actually motivate a dragon to work for you -- in the Silm it's never touched on at all how Melkor keeps his lizard boys onside or what they really want, apart from a general pleasure in others' suffering which Smaug, however murderous he is, doesn't seem to have much of. In neither case is it like the Nazgul where they have become thralls to his magic by accepting his gift of immortality, or like the orcs who are kept in line by the slave society he has set up.
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Jul 19, 2020 20:39
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Smaug's main threat wasn't so much his burninating but that by hoarding gold he was about to send the economy of Middle Earth into a deflationary spiral.
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Jul 19, 2020 20:41
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Smaug's main threat wasn't so much his burninating but that by hoarding gold he was about to send the economy of Middle Earth into a deflationary spiral. Okay this is the best answer and all others are now null and void.
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Jul 19, 2020 20:45
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How does Aragorn's tax policy play into this?
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Jul 19, 2020 20:52
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I do not think altering the racial makeup of some of Tolkien's fantasy races is a problem. Tbh that's one thing i hope the show does cause i really want to see nerds pissed off at a black elf or numenorean or whatever. i hope ar pharazon is idris elba or something
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Jul 19, 2020 20:53
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i like the way the show louie did it where people were just cast into roles completely regardless of appearance or logic (louie's wife is black even though he and his kids are white, the actors change randomly per season because who gives a poo poo). id accept forest whittaker as ar pharazon, in fact thatd be really cool or they could just take that one scene from lotr with the dead haradrim soldier and expand that into a dual perspective thing where they show the consequences of the numenorean's actions from their perspective
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Jul 19, 2020 21:36
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Shibawanko posted:i like the way the show louie did it where people were just cast into roles completely regardless of appearance or logic (louie's wife is black even though he and his kids are white, the actors change randomly per season because who gives a poo poo). id accept forest whittaker as ar pharazon, in fact thatd be really cool Within Tolkien's own stuff, there is never actually a requirement the Elves have white skin, so that can be ignored right away. As for the Numenorean's, their island is drat near the equator, and they dealt with all kinds of people from the global south, all the time. There is no reason that they also can't have a variety of skin colors represented within the greater label of "Numenorean" since their long lives and poo poo are a direct result of Elvish origins and a literal gift from the Gods, so that also can be easily ignored.
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Jul 19, 2020 21:42
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i also dunno why cinema hasn't adopted the stage convention where an actor's appearance is (for the most part) simply irrelevant for their role, since the actor is simply a professional who is trained to deliver lines and convey emotion, not an exact physical copy of a person. black hamlet or female caesar wouldn't really be considered odd (although i guess white othello or black shylock would be), movies should similarly just treat a role as a role, within reason
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Jul 19, 2020 22:08
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WoodrowSkillson posted:Within Tolkien's own stuff, there is never actually a requirement the Elves have white skin, so that can be ignored right away. As for the Numenorean's, their island is drat near the equator, and they dealt with all kinds of people from the global south, all the time. There is no reason that they also can't have a variety of skin colors represented within the greater label of "Numenorean" since their long lives and poo poo are a direct result of Elvish origins and a literal gift from the Gods, so that also can be easily ignored. In Tolkien's own writings the elves and Numenoreans were super white, and races had hierarchies. They can't both make a non-racist show and follow Tolkien's writings, unless they make two versions. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/11/in-middle-earth-must-all-hobbits-be-white/343239/
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Jul 19, 2020 22:18
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Shibawanko posted:i also dunno why cinema hasn't adopted the stage convention where an actor's appearance is (for the most part) simply irrelevant for their role, since the actor is simply a professional who is trained to deliver lines and convey emotion, not an exact physical copy of a person. black hamlet or female caesar wouldn't really be considered odd (although i guess white othello or black shylock would be), movies should similarly just treat a role as a role, within reason Because stage performances are inherently fake, the very nature of them is an artifice. Acknowledging that a stage performance is performed by actors isn't a problem for suspension of disbelief because you are already in a theater watching a stage. Most movies and TV shows try to pretend to be showing something that looks real, and casting a black dude as Thomas Jefferson or something in a movie that looks real is gonna give people a shitton of cognitive dissonance.
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Jul 19, 2020 22:24
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skasion posted:Sauron and Durin's Bane may have been allied in some way. There were black uruks of Mordor in Moria when the Fellowship passed through, and they were pretty recent arrivals: they were the ones who came east up the Silverlode, killed Balin, and besieged the dwarf colony there. This sure sounds like either an alliance or a relationship of military dependency where Sauron sent troops to DB and had reason to believe they wouldn't immediately be run off by the Moria orcs. Perhaps it was in preparation for his planned stroke at Lothlorien as well as just getting rid of DB's dwarf infestation (though you would think DB could deal with it himself). skasion posted:As to the idea of Sauron having dragon allies or servants, I don't think this ever happened. It's suggested in the dwarf appendix or maybe "Quest of Erebor" that Gandalf wanted Smaug dead for fear Sauron could use him to wreck everyone else, but it's kind of hard to imagine how this would actually work. I guess Sauron could offer him some rings to sit on, but it's hard to imagine any means by which you could actually motivate a dragon to work for you -- in the Silm it's never touched on at all how Melkor keeps his lizard boys onside or what they really want, apart from a general pleasure in others' suffering which Smaug, however murderous he is, doesn't seem to have much of. There's the idea that only Iluvatar can create life properly and Melkor has to shove bits of himself into his creations to make them live, so in that case it could be argued that his dragons etc share his goals because they're echoes of him.
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Jul 19, 2020 22:33
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in children of hurin you get the impression that glaurung is just an extension of morgoth, like when he talks he basically just says what morgoth wants him to, they're more like automata than living creatures
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Jul 19, 2020 22:49
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They should cast a range of people as Numenoreans IMO. I think the one requirement would be that they ought to be tall and grand and Elendil should probably have a vague appearance to Viggo Mortesen if he appears. (Also apparently Elendil was eight feet tall? lol) However, you can accomplish tall in a range of ways; just ask Tom Cruise. And speaking of someone in thrall to ancient horrors, I think Gandalf basically says his worry was that Smaug would have been like "Sauron's partying? Hell yeah" and flown out to burn down Lorien and other such places. I assume Durin's Bane could have probably matched Sauron without the Ring, but the only real hope there would be to complete the ringbearer's errand while there's a Fel vs. Orcs throwdown around the Nimrodel.
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Jul 19, 2020 23:05
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Nessus posted:(Also apparently Elendil was eight feet tall? lol) What did you think "High Numenorean" meant? 
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Jul 19, 2020 23:06
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Lemniscate Blue posted:What did you think "High Numenorean" meant? The pipe-weed had to come from somewhere.
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Jul 19, 2020 23:15
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