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sebmojo posted:this is a good argument for natives imo It's really a good argument not to work for the natives. We won't be able to afford the modern weapons systems that keep our aircraft away from SAM systems, and we won't be able to afford to replace the aircraft we lose. And honestly, our munitions expenditures are going to be far higher. We may have been able to drop a billion SDBs in Angola, but we made so much money from those that hit their target that what missed barely made a dent in our income. SDBs are only $45k or so. However, we're going to need a lot of AShMs in this theatre, we currently have two that we're likely to use, Sea Eagle and Rbs 15. Sea Eagle costs $680k a missile, the Rbs 15 costs even more. If the target has CIWS, we need to fire multiple missiles to overwhelm the CIWS. If we're working for the natives, we can't afford this.
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May 26, 2017 14:12
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| # ? Jun 7, 2024 12:54 |
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I kinda wish we hadn't started with Gripens, an AWACs, and basically everything we needed for an air force. It feels like everything we buy is just a minor add-on while the real stars of the show are all the fancy stuff we started the game with.
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May 26, 2017 14:18
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Voting Mitsu.
Dandywalken fucked around with this message at 16:24 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 14:26
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Night10194 posted:I kinda wish we hadn't started with Gripens, an AWACs, and basically everything we needed for an air force. It feels like everything we buy is just a minor add-on while the real stars of the show are all the fancy stuff we started the game with. These stars can eat missiles and turn into fireballs just as quickly as our older inventory once they have to actually face modern opposition, so I wouldn't worry about us being too front-loaded. One bad engagement and we will have to rebuild on a much lower tier. Mitsuhashi
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May 26, 2017 14:29
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Yvonmukluk posted:Yeah, I doubt that Yooper would give us a 'trap' decision. If we screw up on the actual mission planning/execution, we might be screwed, true, but I figure he won't put us in an economic tailspin for no reason. It's not a trap if you know full well what you're going into. Night10194 posted:I kinda wish we hadn't started with Gripens, an AWACs, and basically everything we needed for an air force. It feels like everything we buy is just a minor add-on while the real stars of the show are all the fancy stuff we started the game with. I wouldn't say that. While the Gripens have been monsters in the air, we did lose one to a Fishbed. Our Phantoms have been proven to be extremely cost effective and the Tornadoes have put in phenomenal work too. So far the Kfirs have been pretty decent additions to the fleet as well. While there've been a few aircraft that have flat out sucked like the Hawks, that doesn't mean that we've got a good mix of aircraft that can do pretty much anything we want them to. Provided, of course, we have the money to pay for it. Quinntan fucked around with this message at 14:34 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 14:31
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Yvonmukluk posted:We have word from Yooper himself that we will be able to make money with Native Corp, it's just that we need to be more creative in how to do it. And considering we get a lot of operational independence, that allows for us to be very creative. Up to and including bote theft. After watching goons completely wreck a Tibetan airfield with concise planning, no. I don't think anyone would say we're bad at our jobs.They're both valid choices but Mitsu is the more appealing option because it is the safer option economically. Why have the one fish with the natives when you could have the entire shoal with Mitsu. The half price on destructobucks is pretty  as well. I for one revel in blowing poo poo up and given the high and mighty nature of Mitsu, I'm sure we'll have a target rich environment for both explosions and bote thieving
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May 26, 2017 14:35
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Quinntan posted:It's not a trap if you know full well what you're going into. Yooper posted:I definitely won't get us into a situation where there's an economic tailspin into bankruptcy just because you guys chose one employer over another. There will be ways to make buck, more creative ways. While Alaska doesn't have Lithium... it has gold. Edit: Zanziabar posted:After watching goons completely wreck a Tibetan airfield with concise planning, no. I don't think anyone would say we're bad at our jobs.They're both valid choices but Mitsu is the more appealing option because it is the safer option economically. Why have the one fish with the natives when you could have the entire shoal with Mitsu. The half price on destructobucks is pretty Yvonmukluk fucked around with this message at 14:53 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 14:38
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Yvonmukluk posted:Good to get that confirmed. It was pretty tore up by the time we left. Between Mbeke's forces coming in, the Dictators forces running away, and all of the chronic mismanagement that comes with transitional periods, they're lucky to be left with a handful of Cessnas.
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May 26, 2017 14:54
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Yvonmukluk posted:So, no, it's explicitly not a trap. We're not going to throwing munitions around like candy anyway, between the mission profiles and the ongoing arms shortage. It's not a trap, but I don't think people are fully aware of the repercussions of the halved destructobux. Let's take Operation Golgotha, our fourth Angola mission, as an example and try to match up the mission pay to what we can expect in the Bering Sea. We received $20 million for mission completion and $61.6m in destructobux. We also had a net expenditure of $56.1m and we lost no aircraft. First, we need to reduce the mission completion payment to $14m, as that is the maximum available from BNSC. We also have to halve our destructobux to $30.8m, for a total income of $44.8m. With the same expenditures, we would have a net loss from that mission of $11.3m. We can't afford botes if we're constantly haemorrhaging money. Also, the likely primary weapons, Sea Eagle and Rbs 15, cost 15 to 20 times more per weapon than the SDB.
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May 26, 2017 15:03
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Also I would like to remind people pointing out the inuits would be like cool shadowrun natives that the first thing the SR natives did when they got a bit of power was kill a lot of civilians with the Great Ghost Dance.
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May 26, 2017 15:09
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And you're not taking into account that we'll have other ways to earn money. Besides, at least we're not bombing the Turkish government for free to stop them levying taxes on us like a bunch of crazed, airborne sovcits. Actual Strike Commander was a weird game.
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May 26, 2017 15:10
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Quinntan posted:It's not a trap, but I don't think people are fully aware of the repercussions of the halved destructobux. ... Yooper posted:I definitely won't get us into a situation where there's an economic tailspin into bankruptcy just because you guys chose one employer over another. There will be ways to make buck, more creative ways. While Alaska doesn't have Lithium... it has gold.
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May 26, 2017 15:12
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Relying on as yet unknown bonii to make up for an almost guaranteed operating loss does not seem prudent financial planning, nor does the corporate/japan enemies we'll likely be making seem great for future work down the line. We did our charitable stint, can't we just make a bit of money this time around?
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May 26, 2017 15:20
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For Wild Willie: The US-1 is not in the database but the PS-1 maritime search version is. http://cmano-db.com/aircraft/3317/
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May 26, 2017 15:28
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For those advocating that we turn to piracy to make up the shortfall, then consider this. If Apple and Tesla now have their own military arms, then why wouldn't shipping companies? It'd practically be malfeasance not to at this point. Couple that to the Japanese, Russian and US Navies taking us loving with civilian shipping as a serious problem, and we're going to get our poo poo ruined if we go pirate. Quinntan fucked around with this message at 15:30 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 15:28
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Quinntan posted:It's not a trap, but I don't think people are fully aware of the repercussions of the halved destructobux. We're not going to be undertaking such large scale missions as in Angola, anyway. We're not going to providing air cover for an entire military front, and I feel it's disingenuous to make those sort of comparisons. sniper4625 posted:Relying on as yet unknown bonii to make up for an almost guaranteed operating loss does not seem prudent financial planning, nor does the corporate/japan enemies we'll likely be making seem great for future work down the line. We did our charitable stint, can't we just make a bit of money this time around? Honestly, it's slightly annoying the Mitsu lobby is still pushing the 'if we back Native Corp we're going to run out of money!' narrative when Yooper's already established that's not true. Quinntan posted:For those advocating that we turn to piracy to make up the shortfall, then consider this. Yvonmukluk fucked around with this message at 15:33 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 15:31
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Guys, POOR IMPULSE CONTROL is a Snow Crash reference. There's a guy with that as a tattoo. Said guy also uses glass knives and rides a motorcycle with a nuke in the sidecar. He's kind of awesome. The side in this fight that actually has poor impulse control is the one where the downside is "demanding and erratic".
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May 26, 2017 15:31
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Yvonmukluk posted:Honestly, it's slightly annoying the Mitsu lobby is still pushing the 'if we back Native Corp we're going to run out of money!' narrative when Yooper's already established that's not true. In character, there's a difference between getting paid as gently caress and between scraping by. The Sandman posted:The side in this fight that actually has poor impulse control is the one where the downside is "demanding and erratic". Out of character megacorp issues sounds fun as hell.
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May 26, 2017 15:35
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Yvonmukluk posted:You seem to assume the two are mutually exclusive.You did hear that bit about the gold, right? It's really annoying that you're taking "oh we might be able to make money with gold" as "we're going to be making money hand over fist." What we know is that the mission payouts from the BNSC are going to be miniscule compared to what we are used to, and given the rate that we've gone through munitions elsewhere, it is not unreasonable for us to start literally doing the math to figure out that we'd start losing money hand over fist with the BNSC contract.
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May 26, 2017 15:37
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The Sandman posted:Guys, POOR IMPULSE CONTROL is a Snow Crash reference. There's a guy with that as a tattoo. Said guy also uses glass knives and rides a motorcycle with a nuke in the sidecar. He's kind of awesome. 
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May 26, 2017 15:39
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Voting Mitsuhashi
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May 26, 2017 15:43
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Quinntan posted:It's really annoying that you're taking "oh we might be able to make money with gold" as "we're going to be making money hand over fist." What we know is that the mission payouts from the BNSC are going to be miniscule compared to what we are used to, and given the rate that we've gone through munitions elsewhere, it is not unreasonable for us to start literally doing the math to figure out that we'd start losing money hand over fist with the BNSC contract. Or, and this is just a thought, we could try pickling off munitions one at a time when we're not attempting to saturate an air defense net, thus avoiding wasting millions on overkill? And we have a much better chance of being able to control our munitions expenses if we work for the side that actually lets us pick our own targets and decide how to kill them. You are seriously underestimating the degree to which tight control from above will gently caress us over. The Sandman fucked around with this message at 15:46 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 15:44
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Coiler121 posted:Voting Mitsuhashi ...did you register an account just to vote Mitsuhashi? Edit: Quinntan posted:It's really annoying that you're taking "oh we might be able to make money with gold" as "we're going to be making money hand over fist." What we know is that the mission payouts from the BNSC are going to be miniscule compared to what we are used to, and given the rate that we've gone through munitions elsewhere, it is not unreasonable for us to start literally doing the math to figure out that we'd start losing money hand over fist with the BNSC contract. We've also established that the missions we're going to be running are not going to be the kind of massive endeavors they were in Angola. So it seems to me that we're comparing apples to oranges when it comes to munitions expenditure. Yvonmukluk fucked around with this message at 15:48 on May 26, 2017 |
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May 26, 2017 15:45
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Quote is not edit.
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May 26, 2017 15:47
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Voting Natives
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May 26, 2017 15:49
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Yvonmukluk posted:We've also established that the missions we're going to be running are not going to be the kind of massive endeavors they were in Angola. So it seems to me that we're comparing apples to oranges when it comes to munitions expenditure. We may not be dropping SDBs all over the place, but we will need to expend far more Sea Eagles (the cost of 12 SDBs) or Rbs 15s (the cost of 16 SDBs) to complete missions.
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May 26, 2017 15:52
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Mitsuhashi No need to piss off another major Asian power. And we (hopefully) are on the same side as the guys with the good botes as well as the mercs with the dirt on us.
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May 26, 2017 15:53
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Quinntan posted:We may not be dropping SDBs all over the place, but we will need to expend far more Sea Eagles (the cost of 12 SDBs) or Rbs 15s (the cost of 16 SDBs) to complete missions. I feel like that might be a bit overkill, considering most of the naval targets are going to be unarmed. I seem to recall we managed to accomplish Crazy Yahweh without the use of such expensive weaponry. I mean, I'm sure there will be situations where we do break out the expensive weapons, but I don't think we'll need them for every operation.
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May 26, 2017 15:56
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Yvonmukluk posted:I feel like that might be a bit overkill, considering most of the naval targets are going to be unarmed. I seem to recall we managed to accomplish Crazy Yahweh without the use of such expensive weaponry. Crazy Yahweh was a one-off strike on a lone unescorted merchie. If we start killing fishing boats, Matsushita and Iceberg are going to start escorting them. To get through the missile defence bubble, we're going to have to start launching several missiles to get one or two through.
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May 26, 2017 16:03
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Yeah comparing Crazy Yaweh, one immobile, abandoned, isolated trawler versus a fully operational fishing fleet with advanced AA protection is apples and oranges.
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May 26, 2017 16:04
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voting Natives For those worried about the 1/2 destruction bonus with the Natives, keep in mind the type of missions we would be doing. No required escort, recon, or other ops with little chance for liberal use of explosives. If anything, the limit might be put in place to stop us from making ridiculous amounts of money by sinking ships left and right. As long as we are more judicious with our ordinance use (which is being enforced anyways with more limited stocks) and continue our tradition of smashing anything put in front of us, we should make out very well with the Natives.
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May 26, 2017 16:25
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I view practical financial restraints on weaponry as a feature, not a bug.
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May 26, 2017 16:33
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Voting Mitsuhashi. Get money, earn friends in high places. Not to mention that Mitsuhashi's objectives are directly opposed to Iceberg's which means that we'll get paid well to bomb people who deserve it. The natives are fine too but working for them or Iceberg means sinking trawlers. Civilian ships.
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May 26, 2017 16:34
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cannonfodder43 posted:voting Natives What worked in active battlefields in the third world may work less well in the literal backyards of several of the world's remaining military powers. If we start sinking civilians left and right, it'd be amazing if there weren't consequences.
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May 26, 2017 16:36
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sniper4625 posted:What worked in active battlefields in the third world may work less well in the literal backyards of several of the world's remaining military powers. If we start sinking civilians left and right, it'd be amazing if there weren't consequences. I definitely doubt that Yooper would pass up the opportunity to complicate our lives if we started murking civies willy-nilly; however, a lot of the assets of our opfor are going to fall into a civilian-ish category regardless of for whom we work. quote:Both are industrial concerns with appropriate levels of industrial assets. Canning facilities. Tank farms. Generators. Storage Facilities. Worker Housing. Piers. Docks. Automated Canning Vessels.
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May 26, 2017 16:40
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glynnenstein posted:I definitely doubt that Yooper would pass up the opportunity to complicate our lives if we started murking civies willy-nilly; however, a lot of the assets of our opfor are going to fall into a civilian-ish category regardless of for whom we work. At least working for Mitsuhashi we have some legitimacy on our side, after all, they're the ones who are meant to be there.
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May 26, 2017 16:49
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For what it's worth, we're probably going to be pissing off the Americans one way or another - I just am willing to bet that loving over their industrial interests on the basis of a UN mandate and one of its nominal allies is going to piss them off a whole hell of a lot less than actually acting as an air force for a secessionist movement.
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May 26, 2017 17:13
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glynnenstein posted:I view practical financial restraints on weaponry as a feature, not a bug. Actually we're going to go up against decently sized fleets of modernized planes.
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May 26, 2017 17:14
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PenguinSalsa posted:Voting Mitsuhashi. Get money, earn friends in high places. sniper4625 posted:What worked in active battlefields in the third world may work less well in the literal backyards of several of the world's remaining military powers. If we start sinking civilians left and right, it'd be amazing if there weren't consequences. David Corbett posted:For what it's worth, we're probably going to be pissing off the Americans one way or another - I just am willing to bet that loving over their industrial interests on the basis of a UN mandate and one of its nominal allies is going to piss them off a whole hell of a lot less than actually acting as an air force for a secessionist movement.  so they can profit from what they see as their rightful waters, not to outright separate from the US itself.
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May 26, 2017 17:19
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It's from the concept that they even *have* rightful territorial waters and the ability to decide who does and does not go in them, including control over commercial activities in the Bering Strait, against the explicit mandate of the US Congress and, presumably, the desires of the majority of the State of Alaska and the United States in general. Further, the opinion that such an ability and control should be backed up by the private use of lethal military force, including against American citizens. How could you view it as anything else?
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May 26, 2017 17:26
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