|
Dr. Red Ranger posted:Hi, if I could, I'd like to ask a question about faction keywords. I picked up the 8th edition Deathguard codex for fun, and to have something to focus on when I need a break from the news. I haven't played since 2010, maybe, and I can already tell the game has changed from the way the stat lines are laid out, the lack of mention of points, no force org chart, and so on. I read the Goonhammer Start Competing article on Death Guard, which was pretty interesting, but noticed that it mentioned including Nurgle demons would invalidate special rules that came with Death Guard forces. How does including something that comes in the codex make other parts of the codex/special rules updates printed somewhere else not work? There's no Great Unclean Ones here too, which feels odd. Look at Inexorable Advance on page 96. It requires a DEATH GUARD detachment, so every unit in that detachment needs the DEATH GUARD faction keyword. Compare the faction keywords for plague marines (Chaos, Nurgle, Heretic Astartes, Death Guard) and plaguebearers (Chaos, Nurgle, Daemon). So if you take both in a detachment, it's a Chaos Nurgle detachment because those keywords are shared, but it's not a Heretic Astartes or Death Guard detachment. Detachments are covered in the main rulebook, they're basically forceorg charts you take for your army. You can get around it by summoning plaguebearers ingame if you leave the points spare for them (Daemonic Ritual on page 68) or put them in a detachment of their own with, say daemon princes that don't care about inexorable advance. A lot of this looks like it's going to change in a few months for 9th anyway, so I wouldn't worry about it too much 
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2020 20:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 07:49 |
|
|
ro5s posted:Look at Inexorable Advance on page 96. It requires a DEATH GUARD detachment, so every unit in that detachment needs the DEATH GUARD faction keyword. Compare the faction keywords for plague marines (Chaos, Nurgle, Heretic Astartes, Death Guard) and plaguebearers (Chaos, Nurgle, Daemon). So if you take both in a detachment, it's a Chaos Nurgle detachment because those keywords are shared, but it's not a Heretic Astartes or Death Guard detachment. Ok, thanks. That's, well, much different from how I remember things but I can't say I didn't expect big changes. But about points... I see power level everywhere, which I presumed was the new way to do points, but I don't see regular points mentioned in the codex. I guess there's some manner of conversion and I should just pick up an 8th edition booklet somewhere.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2020 21:05
|
|
|
Dr. Red Ranger posted:Ok, thanks. That's, well, much different from how I remember things but I can't say I didn't expect big changes. But about points... I see power level everywhere, which I presumed was the new way to do points, but I don't see regular points mentioned in the codex. I guess there's some manner of conversion and I should just pick up an 8th edition booklet somewhere. Points are in the last couple of pages of the book rather than the unit entries and wargear section they used to be in. The vaules in the codex are also outdated, they've been updated in Chapter Approved 2019. GW puts one out every year, so if you're not buying new you'd want to make sure you're not buying an older year's second hand. Power level's an alternative for roughly balanced games, but it's not updated like points are and doesn't really seem to see use outside of people really new to the game just putting down what they own.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2020 21:10
|
|
|
I got my hardcover copy of the 8th edition rules today. It took so long to come in the mail due to COVID-19, that Games Workshop announced 9th edition in the mean time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2020 21:16
|
|
|
ro5s posted:Points are in the last couple of pages of the book rather than the unit entries and wargear section they used to be in. The vaules in the codex are also outdated, they've been updated in Chapter Approved 2019. GW puts one out every year, so if you're not buying new you'd want to make sure you're not buying an older year's second hand. Ok, I just ordered mine a couple of weeks ago, so mine should be up to date.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2020 21:28
|
|
|
Honestly, Power Level is probably fine for Narrative stuff. I have always used points, because why wouldn't you, but sure whatever. It isn't like you can't just use points anyway. I.. I think I am excited about 40k again.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2020 21:32
|
|
|
Dr. Red Ranger posted:Ok, I just ordered mine a couple of weeks ago, so mine should be up to date. Man I wish we lived in a time line where GW updated its written products but sadly we got the covid and riot filled time line where GW will sell books at full price that they know are partly invalidated by another book (which you need to buy at full price lol)
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2020 21:48
|
|
|
I can totally see the idea behind power level as a simple way to play the game, but it’s just too drat simple. There should be a nice spot somewhere between ‘gear doesn’t matter’ and ‘scopes cost X points’.
|
|
#
?
Jun 2, 2020 23:55
|
|
|
So the preview of the new Necron stuff, plus hope that they may not be complete crap due to having an army overhaul has me wanting to try them out when 9th drops. I'm wondering if there would be anything that would be worth getting started with that is available now, but I'm guessing we just don't really know enough yet? Given that even the warriors are getting new models it doesn't even seem worth it to start working on some of those.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 02:20
|
|
|
I have an old unassembled forgebane box and now I guess I can wait till 9th to build the necron half
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 02:28
|
|
|
Gameko posted:I can totally see the idea behind power level as a simple way to play the game, but it’s just too drat simple. There should be a nice spot somewhere between ‘gear doesn’t matter’ and ‘scopes cost X points’. "This tactical squad can be equipped all with boltguns, or, for +1 power, one marine can be equipped with a special weapon and one marine can be equipped with a heavy weapon" sort of thing?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 03:20
|
|
|
Stephenls posted:"This tactical squad can be equipped all with boltguns, or, for +1 power, one marine can be equipped with a special weapon and one marine can be equipped with a heavy weapon" sort of thing? Then you just have points with a different name though. Either GW has to do a pretty drastic redesign of force composition in 40k or I think PL as a "real" system is dead in the water.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 03:29
|
|
|
Stephenls posted:"This tactical squad can be equipped all with boltguns, or, for +1 power, one marine can be equipped with a special weapon and one marine can be equipped with a heavy weapon" sort of thing? You kind have to have something like that, or else you get insanity like "A five man Dev squad with a Sarge w/ Bolter and four Heavy Bolters" and "a five marine Dev Squad with a Sarge w/ Thunder Hammer and Combi-Melta, four Grav-Cannons, and an Armorium Cherub" cost the same PL, and those are NOT equivalent units. jng2058 fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Jun 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 03:29
|
|
|
Inspector_666 posted:Then you just have points with a different name though. PL is already points with a different name. At least making it closer to accurately representing a unit would be an improvement.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 03:37
|
|
|
Inspector_666 posted:Then you just have points with a different name though. Either GW has to do a pretty drastic redesign of force composition in 40k or I think PL as a "real" system is dead in the water. They mentioned, in terms of what from previous books will be legal in future books, that everything will stay legal except for a few things moved to Legends, but what gets printed in future codexes will be "best-of" rather than absolutely everything. I am not sure whether that meant just stratagems and artifacts and such, or if it also meant datasheets. "The drastic redesign of force composition" could just be not putting older units (with vast point value fluctuations depending on your wargear choices) in the new codexes or assigning them power levels in 9th, but giving them point values in the errata documents and leaving their 8th edition datasheets legal, and then trusting that anyone using the power level system is probably also using the new codexes and doesn't care about units that aren't on store shelves.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 03:39
|
|
|
Stephenls posted:You can, but what are the margins on making those people your target market vs. targeting the 14 year olds who can buy a start collecting and a troop box? (And a can of spray primer and three (3) pots of Contrast.) If you're 14 and just just starting out, you're not having anxiety over "impossible to escape netlists and the vague but omnipresent anxiety being considered trash for having the wrong list" like you were talking about. You're buying cool space mans. And yes, you should also point that 14 year old to any crazy bespoke jewel-like-wonder of a space man conversion that might be on display in the store and say "you can also do THIS with them" because that's how you create hobbyists and long-time repeat customers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 04:03
|
|
|
Two Beans posted:If you're 14 and just just starting out, you're not having anxiety over "impossible to escape netlists and the vague but omnipresent anxiety being considered trash for having the wrong list" like you were talking about. You're buying cool space mans. I don't know about your experience of being a 14 year old boy, but mine was marked by a constant fear of inadequacy and a desire to fit in coupled with the lingering feeling that I was doing something wrong and everyone was judging me for it, or, as John Mulaney put it, "You remember twelve, 'Nobody look at me or I'll kill myself.'" It doesn't take much to push someone in that mindset into "Gotta build the list right so nobody laughs at me for not knowing what I'm doing." Stephenls fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Jun 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 04:16
|
|
|
In my wargaming experience teenagers are just as likely, if not moreso, to find netlists for any wargame they play rather than just throwing down random warhams.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 04:22
|
|
|
Stephenls posted:I don't know about your experience of being a 14 year old boy, but mine was marked by a constant fear of inadequacy and a desire to fit in coupled with the lingering feeling that I was doing something wrong and everyone was judging me for it, or, as John Mulaney put it, "You remember twelve, 'Nobody look at me or I'll kill myself.'" It doesn't take much to push someone in that mindset into "Gotta build the list right so nobody laughs at me for not knowing what I'm doing." Yeah I was more of a "make fun of me enough and I'll throw a loaded book bag at your head in the middle of class" kinda kid at 14. I was ADHD, tired of my daily overdose of ritalin, tired of taking poo poo from my peers, and tired of teachers not giving a poo poo or jerking me around thinking I was the trouble starter. When I got into wargaming when i was 16(?), it was because of the cool space robots of Battletech. Not long after I got into the cool space mans of 40k.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 04:29
|
|
|
Cooked Auto posted:https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/02/join-the-crusadegw-homepage-post-1/ Here is a bit more on the Crusade rules. I'm super pumped for this! Whenever I listen to 40kBadcast, I always get so jealous of the cool and fun stories I hear the boys talk about when playing Necromunda, and it sounds like I'm going to get the chance to do the same in 40k! This is also going to help me with a bit of organization for painting my army. Things I have on deck waiting to be added to the army can get prioritized etc. All in all I'm super pumped to name my squads, level up my dudes, and get way more immersed in my games. 
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 05:33
|
|
|
I hope Iron Hands get a unique crusade mechanic, hell yeah. I'm actually pretty excited
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 05:43
|
|
|
Still not thrilled about Power Levels for Crusade, and I suspect my local group may try some kind of house rule about it, but that depends on how the rules are actually written, and it may be hard to compensate for the various upgrades you'll be able to level up into. Other than that, though, it sounds like a blast.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 06:05
|
|
|
Khisanth Magus posted:So the preview of the new Necron stuff, plus hope that they may not be complete crap due to having an army overhaul has me wanting to try them out when 9th drops. I'm wondering if there would be anything that would be worth getting started with that is available now, but I'm guessing we just don't really know enough yet? Given that even the warriors are getting new models it doesn't even seem worth it to start working on some of those. Pretty much spot on, we don't know what changes, if any, will happen to existing units that'd affect choice of unit build/weapon options and Warriors/Monoliths are getting completely revamped so don't even bother. If you wanted some super safe options, generic characters, Doom Scythes and Ghost Arks/Doomsday Barges are pretty good bets for being at the very least usable.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 06:08
|
|
|
Khisanth Magus posted:So the preview of the new Necron stuff, plus hope that they may not be complete crap due to having an army overhaul has me wanting to try them out when 9th drops. I'm wondering if there would be anything that would be worth getting started with that is available now, but I'm guessing we just don't really know enough yet? Given that even the warriors are getting new models it doesn't even seem worth it to start working on some of those. Immortals are probably going to be fine, they're a modern plastic kit. Inspector_666 posted:Then you just have points with a different name though. Either GW has to do a pretty drastic redesign of force composition in 40k or I think PL as a "real" system is dead in the water. You can probably strike a middle ground. Tbh for most units - especially stuff like Tac Squads with like one special gun for 10 dudes or whatever - the points cost for that upgrade is meaningless anyway and they could pretty much all be free, and in PL they are. You really just need stuff like Vanguard Vets and Death Company to have a couple of break points like idk, 1-3 models have bonus gear +0 PL, 4-7 do then +1PL, 8-10 do then +2PL, or whatever else. Something that reflects that there's a difference between a naked squad of dudes and a squad toting every thunder hammer in the Chapter armoury without having to get down as granular as points.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 09:43
|
|
|
Problem is the more you start telling people to change point costs based on equipment you really might as well use points. For me the biggest advantage is the fact I can say to someone like my girlfriend "You don't have to take a special weapon in the terminator box you bought, but if you do you can only take one, other than that build what you want" and if there was a friend also playing a new space marine army o can say the same thing to them and they can play each other on an "even" battlefield. Let's say my girlfriend loves thunder hammers and storm shields and the other guy loves the heavy flamers and storm bolters. Inevitably my girlfriend would win, but they didn't design those units with the game in mind. My friend may be like "So basically my terminators will always get the poo poo kicked out of them by hers?" to which the answer is "Yes, so you either need the same unit or a counter to it" which is what will drive model sales i guess. PL is a bit shite the moment you sit a player down who goes "oh wait, I can take as many of these upgrades as I want for free? Ca-ching!", and this becomes even worse if you don't play WYSIWYG. To be fair though I also think it's super easy to convert PL to points, and I suspect that's what my gaming group would do.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 13:39
|
|
|
I use points because everyone I play with uses points, but I listen to the independent characters and they seem to love PL. I'd play PL no worries if it was the mainstay locally.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 13:41
|
|
|
I honestly think it just depends on how the details of crusade works. I imagine it steals a lot from Blood Bowl in terms of the idea is there's a value that's compared that includes upgrades and whomever has the lowest score gets inducement like benefits. In such a system the granularity of points may be a little unnecessary as its already the case that i can be better or worse than you in terms of the upgrades I've got. I don't really see an issue if you're playing in a crusade style narrative campaign, if you get a guy who turns up and min maxes everything you just tell him to stop being an arsehole i guess (assuming he knew what he was signing up for). The other thing that made me laugh was GW's comment that it sort of forces you to name squads and feel more of a connection. Just lol if you think my Infantry squads aren't Squad 101, 102, 103, 104, and 105 as already painted on their shoulder pad.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 14:15
|
|
|
I have a fuzzy memory where someone (possibly me?) reverse engineered PL to be the median between min and max unit points divided by some number. Did I just dream that?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 14:15
|
|
|
moths posted:I have a fuzzy memory where someone (possibly me?) reverse engineered PL to be the median between min and max unit points divided by some number. PL was approx 1 per 20pts and yeah I think for units like Death Company or whatever it was roughly worked out that they used like, half the maximum points, but also points changed constantly and PL didn't so it stopped making any sense at all after a while
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 14:22
|
|
|
Ok, cool - it makes sense in theory since half the units' PL would be too expensive and the other half too cheap. The expectation is that it all comes out in the end. But then there are models you never upgrade with points so you're stuck overpaying in PL. Wouldn't it be better to have "default" loadouts attached to PL?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 14:38
|
|
|
moths posted:Ok, cool - it makes sense in theory since half the units' PL would be too expensive and the other half too cheap. The expectation is that it all comes out in the end. If you take the example of a squad of Tactical Marines, I think you could give them: A sergeant with a power first and plasma pistol, a lascannon, and a plasma gun. (Not entirely sure these are all options but you get the idea). However the "default" is by definition nothing, because the sergeant comes with a Chainsword and bolt pistol, and the Tactical marines come with a bolt gun. If you had the default be "missile and flamer" for example, you need to somehow give points back if people don't want them, or make at least a special and heavy weapon mandatory. So if we accept the way the codex entry is written must be "You have ten dudes with no wargear, here is the options you have to upgrade them" then by definition points and PL must work the same way "this is the base cost, this is what it costs to upgrade them". The difference with PL and points though is with PL the only "upgrade" they want you to have to pay for is more dudes. So if you need to say "OK 5 Tactical marines can cost between X with nothing and Y with everything and some options in between" it sort of makes sense to take the average. If you take the max you're slightly underpaying, if you take the min you're slightly underpaying if it's compared to points. However, it's supposed to be for narrative play, so it's not supposed to be a list you build to be optimal. I wish PL existed back when I played loads of random dudes in my local GW, because it would have been better for dealing with people who didn't have a "default" 1500 point army (back then).
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 15:23
|
|
|
Our group out here is itching to give crusade a try. Competitive 40K will just never work so long as you have people slavishly dedicated to figuring out what three units are statistically the best in the game and how to cream them together in the tabletop. Also I gotta say I'm happy with how these painted up: 
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 15:41
|
|
|
Did a Archon 
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 15:41
|
|
|
Heya, gonna play a tabletop sim game in a few hours and need a tie breaker between two variants of the same list. Theyr both 1000pt ravenguard with shrike and a librarian buffing 3x eliminator and 3x sniper scout gunline alongside a relic sniper lieutenant. I've then got a hammer shield captain who is gonna master of ambush his way within 9 inches. What I can't decide is whether I should spend my remaining points on 2 Thunderfires for some guaranteed harassment each turn and more LoS ignoring damage. *Or* on a 5 man Aggressor squad for the captain to Master of Ambush up within 9 inches too to get an early charge or just hose people with bolters.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 15:51
|
|
|
If you like matched play in 40k and curious about how it's going to look in 9th, then this update is for you! https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/06/03/warhammer-40000-matched-play-points-and-an-appgw-homepage-post-1 Also talks about how the points system has been revised somewhat. Pretty sure the mention that costs are going to be raised are going to make some people see red despite the reasoning why. If people don't want me to keep doing these then just tell me. Cooked Auto fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Jun 3, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 16:12
|
|
|
Communist Thoughts posted:Heya, gonna play a tabletop sim game in a few hours and need a tie breaker between two variants of the same list. Unless you're taking Las Fusils on those Eliminators, I don't think you have enough anti-tank. Basically you have the Smash Captain and that's it. Granted, in a 1k game, you probably won't see too many vehicles or monsters, but just a couple could mess you up. Therefore, of the two choices, I'd take the Aggressors. You already have the Eliminators who can shoot at hidden targets, so you won't need Thunderfire to root out hidden troops. The Aggressors can at least punch tanks, so if something happens to Smashy you aren't completely screwed against high Toughness targets. Tell me you at least took some Missile Launchers on the Scouts, right?
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 16:14
|
|
|
Cooked Auto posted:If you like matched play in 40k and curious about how it's going to look in 9th, then this update is for you! I'm super excited for everything here. 9th looks like an enormous improvement on 8th.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 16:21
|
|
|
Deified Data posted:Did a Archon Especially during the current state of worldly affairs I really appreciate this kickin' rad multi-racial skin cape.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 16:21
|
|
|
Cooked Auto posted:If you like matched play in 40k and curious about how it's going to look in 9th, then this update is for you! This is looking great. They've even incorporated ITC secondaries so we should no longer see balance decisions made around two different versions of the game.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 16:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 07:49 |
|
|
Cooked Auto posted:If you like matched play in 40k and curious about how it's going to look in 9th, then this update is for you! I've never done anything but watched ITC format missions, but from the sound of it, the new matched play missions look very similar? The starting command point ranges look good, i'm interested to see how the regeneration works and what influences it. I'm actually happy with point increases. Playing a 2k game will hopefully not take 4 or 5 hours, and hopefully the vague talk of detachment changes means i won't be taking a minimum of 100+ models (love my Orks though) every single time. Overall extremely excited to see what the rest of the 9th ED previews are like.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2020 16:28
|
|