|
Miftan posted:Trust me when I say that guesswork here is basically like throwing darts at a board with reasons. It's possible it was misreported, an Intel op with an overzealous officer, or any number of things. The IDF doesn't do random kidnappings inside gaza very often as far as I know, if only to not put their soldiers at risk. Intel is done all the time on basically everything so it seems likely. IDF also has a history of going in with minimal fire power to Intel jobs (again, guesswork on my part that may as well be on a dart board) I mean, they killed seven people. Not sure the firepower was all that minimal, even if they did decide to call in airstrikes when they had the entire Strip bearing down on them.
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 04:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 09:00 |
|
|
The IDF doesn't really do assassinations in person. It's mostly bombs, airstrikes, or poison, depending on if you're happy to attribute certain things to mossad and shin bet. I've never heard of a mission deep into enemy territory for a kidnapping either. It's usually assassinations. Probably likely that this is an intel job that was botched. It happens a shocking amount.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 10:41
|
|
|
My initial guess was that some higher-ups wanted this guy dead, but couldn't get the clearance for an air strike on his house, but botched intel mission sounds more plausible.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 10:57
|
|
|
Zulily Zoetrope posted:My initial guess was that some higher-ups wanted this guy dead, but couldn't get the clearance for an air strike on his house, but botched intel mission sounds more plausible. Clearance from who? If they can order an air strike they probably can't order that sort of intel mission since the air force has nothing to do with infantry and spec ops units. If they're high enough to do both, and didn't get clearance from the government, do you think they'd go around the government's back like that? Generals in the IDF are generally very loyal (before they retire)
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 11:04
|
|
|
That's fair, I have no idea how their command structure actually works.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 11:09
|
|
|
What kind of intel mission involves having a special forces team within shooting distance of a senior Hamas commander? Seems like a bit much.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 14:55
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:What kind of intel mission involves having a special forces team within shooting distance of a senior Hamas commander? Seems like a bit much. There have been far more daring intel ops in various armies throughout history.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 15:49
|
|
|
Miftan posted:The IDF doesn't really do assassinations in person. It's mostly bombs, airstrikes, or poison, depending on if you're happy to attribute certain things to mossad and shin bet. I've never heard of a mission deep into enemy territory for a kidnapping either. It's usually assassinations. Probably likely that this is an intel job that was botched. It happens a shocking amount. It seems to me that it's more likely that botched intel jobs happen a lot less than you think, and assassinations not coincidentally happen a lot more than you think.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 16:08
|
|
|
captainblastum posted:It seems to me that it's more likely that botched intel jobs happen a lot less than you think, and assassinations not coincidentally happen a lot more than you think. Maybe, but botched intel jobs happen A LOT and if assassinations happen more than I think, they are not carried out by regular IDF units.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 16:13
|
|
|
captainblastum posted:It seems to me that it's more likely that botched intel jobs happen a lot less than you think, and assassinations not coincidentally happen a lot more than you think. That does assume that the botched intel missions usually have this kind of K/D ratio, though.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 16:15
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/ChemiShalev/status/1061997607516561409 Oh joy...
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 16:15
|
|
|
Miftan posted:There have been far more daring intel ops in various armies throughout history. Seriously, though. What kinds of intel missions involve an special forces squad in close proximity to senior enemy commanders in enemy territory, other than kidnapping? I feel like most intel work is better accomplished with spies, not soldiers, and Israel has plenty of both. Though rather than assassination, I'm inclined to think this was a sabotage mission of some sort, aimed at blowing up some infrastructure or something.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 16:28
|
|
|
I'm gonna stop talking about this subject in case I breach some of the weird NDAs I had to sign when I was discharged.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 16:37
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Seriously, though. What kinds of intel missions involve an special forces squad in close proximity to senior enemy commanders in enemy territory, other than kidnapping? I feel like most intel work is better accomplished with spies, not soldiers, and Israel has plenty of both. Another option is extracting an intelligent asset. quote:Though rather than assassination, I'm inclined to think this was a sabotage mission of some sort, aimed at blowing up some infrastructure or something. Again, something better accomplished by an airstrike. Why risk sending a team in?
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 16:39
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Another option is extracting an intelligent asset. Well, that's really the question at hand - what could they have needed a squad of soldiers to do in Gaza that couldn't be better accomplished by an airstrike? Especially with a ceasefire under negotiation? The thing is, there is precedent for this stuff. The 2008 Gaza ceasefire ended in a very similar incident: a squad of IDF soldiers secretly entered Gaza, got into a gunfight with Hamas, several squad members were injured, and the IDF covered their retreat with airstrikes, killing a total of six Hamas members. That IDF incursion was explained as an operation to destroy tunnels. In the aftermath, there was an escalation of Hamas rocket fire (just like we're seeing now) and even the same media hot takes about how both sides seem committed to continuing the ceasefire despite the Israeli raid.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 16:56
|
|
|
Main Paineframe posted:Well, that's really the question at hand - what could they have needed a squad of soldiers to do in Gaza that couldn't be better accomplished by an airstrike? Especially with a ceasefire under negotiation? Yeah, except the tunnels it would make sense to need boots on the ground for back then, before they had the fancy high-tech echolocation systems they claim to have now. Like I said, though, this goes into a much longer-reaching pattern way back to at least the early 2000's of stability being broken by an escalation engendered by operations that just had to be done right that very minute.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 17:19
|
|
|
Absurd Alhazred posted:Another option is extracting an intelligent asset. Maybe they didn't want to kill any civi-hahahahahahahahaha
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 19:44
|
|
|
Things were calming down and Qatar had negotiated to send humanitarian help, so Israel needed a pretext for escalating again. This was it.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 21:29
|
|
|
By now Hamas commanders know they'll be killed by an airstrike if they occupy the upper floors of a building, so they probably do business in the basement, hence why Israel decided to send in a commando team to do the assassination instead of blowing up the building.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 21:39
|
|
|
qkkl posted:By now Hamas commanders know they'll be killed by an airstrike if they occupy the upper floors of a building, so they probably do business in the basement, hence why Israel decided to send in a commando team to do the assassination instead of blowing up the building. I'm pretty sure Israel has no hangups regarding collapsing a building on their target.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 21:41
|
|
|
qkkl posted:By now Hamas commanders know they'll be killed by an airstrike if they occupy the upper floors of a building, so they probably do business in the basement, hence why Israel decided to send in a commando team to do the assassination instead of blowing up the building. Ah, yes, the IAF, notorious for not being able or willing to completely level a building. 
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 21:45
|
|
|
So is it a war only when there's a ground invasion? Or perhaps there's some absolute number of rockets (obv only gazans rockets cause IDF rockets are all Retaliatory and Justified)? I do wonder what the spin will be this time, 'well you see, we kinda had commando op go wrong so obviously we had to bomb the hamas TV station' is kind of flimsy.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 21:50
|
|
|
Apologies if this is a ridiculous question but I'm legit curious to know how basic civic infrastructure is provided in Gaza now. I take it for granted that there is mobile phone service, Internet, and all that. But who provides it, and does it have to incorporate much more redundancy to tolerate regular Israeli bombing?
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 21:56
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:So is it a war only when there's a ground invasion? Or perhaps there's some absolute number of rockets (obv only gazans rockets cause IDF rockets are all Retaliatory and Justified)? They're relying on goldfish memory - this is a response to Gazan rocket strikes, and it absolutely does not matter what triggered those rocket strikes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 22:01
|
|
|
communism bitch posted:Apologies if this is a ridiculous question but I'm legit curious to know how basic civic infrastructure is provided in Gaza now. I take it for granted that there is mobile phone service, Internet, and all that. But who provides it, and does it have to incorporate much more redundancy to tolerate regular Israeli bombing? The infrastructure is in Gaza, but much of it is bombable - though when it comes to communications services, the main obstacle is the siege. For example, Israel used their control of Palestinian imports and borders to prevent Palestinian telecom companies from obtaining the communications equipment necessary to provide 3G cellphone internet. They finally released that equipment to the West Bank this year, allowing Palestinians in the West Bank to access 3G speeds. Meanwhile, Gaza is still stuck at 2G. Israel justified this restriction with the usual "security concerns" talk, but pro-Palestinian observers tend to think that the real reason is economic - by keeping Palestinian telecoms on outdated technology, they give a boost to Israeli telecoms by ensuring that the Palestinian companoes can't compete for network bandwidth or for customers (some West Bank Palestinians who lived near Israeli-controlled territory bought services from Israeli telecoms). Though Gaza has decent internet service and speeds, reliability is a problem due to the chronic power shortage. Of course, you can't really use the internet when your electricity is shut off due to rolling blackouts. But on top of that, the one Gazan ISP has occasionally had total outages due to loss of power at their facilities; while they get priority electrical supply from the power system and also have plenty of generators, their heavy reliance on the generators leads to frequent breakdowns.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 22:23
|
|
|
emanresu tnuocca posted:So is it a war only when there's a ground invasion? Or perhaps there's some absolute number of rockets (obv only gazans rockets cause IDF rockets are all Retaliatory and Justified)? Based on the behavior of my own country, that's correct. It's not like Congress has declared war in ages, and we still bomb the poo poo out of all *kinds* of poor brown people.
|
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 22:33
|
|
|
aren't most gazan rockets more like bottle rockets?
Themage fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Nov 13, 2018 |
|
#
?
Nov 12, 2018 23:58
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/radio103fm/status/1061878520459210752 "An IDF unit acting near Khan Yunis ran into a Hamas unit as it was in a weaker situation and fought bravely" - Alon Ben David @alonbd to @AyalaHasson: "The unit was quickly evacuated from the field. It was an action the likes of which happens every night, which was not supposed to be exposed. Its exposure is very unusual. There may be an unusual response from Hamas, which is telling itself that it had won." This seems to be passing along the IDF spokesperson's position.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 00:26
|
|
|
How the gently caress can they pretend Gaza is a country if they are doing this poo poo all the time
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 01:06
|
|
|
kidkissinger posted:How the gently caress can they pretend Gaza is a country if they are doing this poo poo all the time I mean, it's not like Israel recognises the state of Palestine.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 01:09
|
|
|
Darth Walrus posted:I mean, it's not like Israel recognises the state of Palestine. I believe it's phrases "Palestine's Right to Exist"
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 01:21
|
|
|
Can someone please double check my timeline here. Just to be sure since it doesn't make much sense: 1. Hamas/Israel fighting relatively quiet, outside of the protests. 2. Israel goes after Hamas commander. 3. Israel commandos get into firefight with Hamas security. 4. Israel uses airstrikes as shield for commandos, commandos extract. 5. Airstrikes continue with expansion of target list (to include a TV station). Is Israel REALLY using this as an excuse to 'retaliate'?
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 01:30
|
|
|
pro starcraft loser posted:Can someone please double check my timeline here. Just to be sure since it doesn't make much sense: Replace your item 1 with "Hamas and Israel come to agreement about financial support from Qatar."
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 01:32
|
|
|
pro starcraft loser posted:Can someone please double check my timeline here. Just to be sure since it doesn't make much sense: Yes they are a fascist ethnostate with no possibility of being held accountable.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 01:35
|
|
|
kidkissinger posted:How the gently caress can they pretend Gaza is a country if they are doing this poo poo all the time They do not pretend Gaza is a country. It's just some territory that they enjoy bombing, but it's definitely not considered a country and they never refer to it as such. pro starcraft loser posted:Is Israel REALLY using this as an excuse to 'retaliate'? Yes. And why not? It works, doesn't it? Here's the exhaustive list of all western state leaders who will condemn Israel for this:
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 01:37
|
|
|
NYPost posted:IDF spokesman Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus said the mission was “not intended to kill or abduct terrorists but to strengthen Israeli security.” Hahahhahahhaha oh my god. "Yeah, we were going to drive up the house and ask him nicely to stop the protests."
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 01:55
|
|
|
But that dovetails with this being an intelligence gathering operation that went south, I mean who the gently caress really knows. It seems weird to assassinate someone right after they sign a big deal with Qatar, even with Netanyahu obviously having motives to fan the flames.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 02:09
|
|
|
Themage posted:aren't most gazan rockets more like bottle rockets? Eh, not really. They're just big tubes made of scrap metal, propelled by household chemicals that are so basic even Israel can't ban them, like sugar. They will kill a person if they hit, and they can knock a decent hole in a building. The main reason they're a non-factor is that basically all of them just land in a field somewhere and the whole thing where they're fired from an open-air prison that is subject to regular air strikes.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 03:04
|
|
|
Of Israel and Palestine, 2018: An Eye for an Eyelash
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 06:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 09:00 |
|
|
The rockets are not only homemade Qassam's otherwise they'd have no chance of ever hitting Ashdod and actually collapsing buildings there. In the 2014 'operation' Hamas used Syrian made rockets that reached as far as Haifa (like 150km from Gaza). In anyway, the rocket barrages overnight have actually managed to kill a person in a direct strike on Ashdod, the reports indicate that this person was a palestinian citizen who was working in Israel without permit. Israeli services are reporting 85 israelis injured, most suffering light injuries only. As of right now the IDF is still attacking Gaza and Hamas is still launching rockets.
|
|
#
?
Nov 13, 2018 07:12
|
|