Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > Crawl .20: Home of the Frog Dog

Toadsmash: Jun 10, 2009; Dave Tate's downsy face approves.

Tomb has one-way stairs between floors now, which is even worse for a Chei character than other players. You need a plan for getting around that, is probably the biggest thing if you've done extended. I relied heavily on Passage of Golubria, Silence, Aura of Abjuration, and Control Undead.

Have magic maps and be ready to use them when Pan tries to shaft you with a bad floor entrance. They'll save your rear end over and over.

Probably post more when I have time later. FoFiChei is the exact combo I won my first extended with. You can look at my dump for a reference point:

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Toadsmash/morgue-Toadsmash-20170829-230512.txt

# ? Sep 30, 2017 02:24

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# ? May 31, 2024 20:05

LogicNinja: Jan 21, 2011; ...the blur blurs blurringly across the blurred blur in a blur of blurring blurriness that blurred...

The ideology eater posted:

S - +14 crystal plate armour "Baama" {Str+2}

Thanks, Baama!

# ? Sep 30, 2017 02:30

ngreasy: Aug 1, 2007; laksjdfkljle

LogicNinja posted:

Thanks, Baama!

Roll fuckin tide

# ? Sep 30, 2017 04:48

I am Otis: Sep 22, 2003

The trees in georgia face west because................ alabama sucks

just kidding, friend

I am trying the new gnolls out. Having a good time thru d3 but then I get murked by orcs w armor. Anyone have any power classes? Tried a few skalds and that's it so far

# ? Sep 30, 2017 05:08

LogicNinja: Jan 21, 2011; ...the blur blurs blurringly across the blurred blur in a blur of blurring blurriness that blurred...

not a faggoty name posted:

Roll fuckin tide

Just my unpopular opinion but Alabama is bad and also sports are bad and football in particular is pretty bad, sorry.

# ? Sep 30, 2017 07:13

Akett: Aug 6, 2012

Playing GnSk of Ash is the most fun I've had in this game in years, which is amazing because I'd never had any fun playing skalds before this. Having all options is freeing like you wouldn't believe, but it's still up to you to use them right. After I win a skald I want to play an arcane marksman, which is a goddamn accomplishment. Hell, I think I want to win every class in the game as a gnoll just to get them out of the way.

This is exactly what I've wanted Crawl to feel like forever and never knew. I don't know if I can go back. If they nerf gnolls into the ground I may weep tears of blood.

# ? Sep 30, 2017 08:57

LogicNinja: Jan 21, 2011; ...the blur blurs blurringly across the blurred blur in a blur of blurring blurriness that blurred...

It kind of seems like after level 10 or so with skills you slow down really hard. Getting a second rune is really challenging and I can't imagine doing Depths or something where every fight is a challenge.

edit: but yeah, the class is really fun because you can use options you wouldn't use normally because just training weapon skill/defense skill is more effective.

LogicNinja fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Sep 30, 2017

# ? Sep 30, 2017 09:15

I am Otis: Sep 22, 2003

LogicNinja posted:

Just my unpopular opinion but Alabama is bad and also sports are bad and football in particular is pretty bad, sorry.

My opinion is alabama is bad but sports are good and do you still leave rear end in a top hat ghosts all over the dungeon on purpose still? ;p

# ? Sep 30, 2017 13:03

Samog: Dec 13, 2006; At least I'm not an 07.

Floodkiller posted:

Another round of Gnoll rework!

The stat locked version obviously wasn't well received, and my patch for it got shot down because the devs didn't like the potential abuse that could come of it (min maxing stats to 28/1/1, for example). I took a step back for this rework because I had to help a friend with polishing up their game for release (and I was also a bit tired of Gnoll rework at the time), but gammafunk, elliptic, mikee and others pitched in to put together another version. It's pretty close to what one of my backup plans were, so it's got my approval. The details are:

Stat locking and low stats are gone. Stats can be raised and lowered again, stat choice and stat growth (S/I/D every 4 levels) are back in, and starting stats are now 10/10/10 and affected by background choice

Aptitudes for all skills have been raised to +8! However...

All skills are always being trained at all times. You still get your starting skills from your background, but otherwise there is no way to focus your experience on a specific skill (cannot use Transfer Knowledge, experience potions just split the XP among all skills equally with no prompt, etc)

Side effects include no Trog worship/Beserker background (Gnolls can't help but train magic skills and Trog doesn't like that), no sacrificing Arcana under Ru, and no crosstraining bonuses for weapons (aptitudes for weapons can be raised later if they need a boost).

Any feedback (positive or negative) is appreciated!

this is good

# ? Oct 1, 2017 06:42

I am Otis: Sep 22, 2003

I'm enjoying the new Gnoll. THanks floodkiller

I got a skald of Yred going and I'm just now at orc and lair. I'm grabbing every fuckin spell that's low level and using them situationally. It's working out. I've never used Shroud this long lol.

Got a buckler and a trident, lotta wands which I'm using liberally. Tree form has saved my rear end versus two headed ogres more than once.

My takeaway is that this race forces you to use every resource far longer than you might normally use them which is cool, very much the spirit of dungeon crawl. I am sure I'm gonna get wrecked in Lair to a hydra or something but I like this version of gnoll way more than the previous ones.

I'm playing offline so I'll post more thoughts once I win or lose ;]

oh yeah, Yred seemed like a good choice bc they're good 3 rune god whose gifts are great in a bind, esp as linebackers to get the gently caress out of a bad room.

And blowgun and sling are buffed because i normally never train them. Like wands, which I do sometimes train.

Very fun class and very much the spirit of DCSS

edit: keep getting good books, things are starting to heat up...

I am Otis fucked around with this message at 06:53 on Oct 1, 2017

# ? Oct 1, 2017 06:49

tote up a bags: Jun 8, 2006; die stoats die

Make singularity the Gnoll racial ability and you got a perfect race

# ? Oct 1, 2017 11:22

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Some Gnoll updates:
Gnolls no longer get told about stopping/starting training when dropping objects. They didn't actually stop training the skill, but it did turn off the plus on the skill menu and the messages were annoying.

Gnoll skills will now rise evenly. Before, it would randomly assign any leftover skill points if it wasn't evenly divisible by all your enabled skills, which sometimes led to Gnolls randomly getting one non-starting skill higher than others. Now, it will hold leftover skill points back until it can give every skill an equal amount. There were also a couple commits to improve the backend to make it more granular and avoid dumb things like not getting any skill training until XL 3 under this system (as that would have been the earliest point in which you could train every single skill evenly by one point).

Gnolls no longer train other skills faster if they sacrifice a skill under Ru, and sacrificed skills are no longer trained (along with Stabbing and Traps&Doors). This also re-enables Sacrifice Arcana, but Gnolls do not get extra piety when sacrificing it.

Finally, Trog worship/Beserker starts are re-enabled, as Trog has become more forgiving of the poor Gnolls and their addled minds. Trog will not give penance to Gnolls training magic skills (but still hates memorizing or casting spells, so don't try anything funny).

# ? Oct 1, 2017 15:01

Mortimer Knag: Nov 23, 2007

Floodkiller posted:

Some Gnoll updates:

I got really worried when I read that line, but this all sounds very good. Great job floodkiller.

Also everyone starting as skalds: try necromancer, wizard, and fe starts. Their stats are decent enough that you can still fight things, but having access to skeleton and vamp draining, conjure flame, mephitic cloud blink and imps, or whatever else all make better hybrid starts than skalds honestly.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 15:27

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

baby delivery truck posted:

I got really worried when I read that line, but this all sounds very good. Great job floodkiller.

I can't really take credit for the recent updates (other than just some discussion on #crawl-dev); it's mainly been gammafunk and elliptic. Make sure to thank them as well!

Edit: If you exclude the initial Gnoll addition, most of the code that I wrote for Gnoll development has been overwritten. After all the reworks, I think I've actually got more code from stuff where I broke something unrelated and fixed it compared to code related to Gnolls at this point.

Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Oct 1, 2017

# ? Oct 1, 2017 15:45

Toadsmash: Jun 10, 2009; Dave Tate's downsy face approves.

Floodkiller posted:

Some Gnoll updates:
Gnolls no longer get told about stopping/starting training when dropping objects. They didn't actually stop training the skill, but it did turn off the plus on the skill menu and the messages were annoying.

This wasn't my experience with that bug. The first time it happened to me, that weapon skill ended up about a point and a half behind the rest of the ones that started at 0 before it started to rise again. I'll have to keep an eye out and see if it happens anymore.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 16:48

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Toadsmash posted:

This wasn't my experience with that bug. The first time it happened to me, that weapon skill ended up about a point and a half behind the rest of the ones that started at 0 before it started to rise again. I'll have to keep an eye out and see if it happens anymore.

That might have been the random experience distribution co-inciding with that message, since the experience was hard to divy up at low levels and differences looked dramatic.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 17:05

The ideology eater: Oct 20, 2010; IT'S GARBAGE DAY AT WENDY'S FUCK YEAH WE EATIN GOOD TONIGHT

Been really enjoying the new gnolls, it's a ton of fun really looking at ANYTHING you find as a potential resource. Sure you might still have to ignore heavier armors if you want to keep your spells online but otherwise just learning whatever low level spells you find (and eventually being able to cast level 6-7 spells in medium armor reliably) is just generally awesome. Been using Ash as the obvious god choice which has really helped I think with getting spells online. Basically all of my gnolls so far have been making use of summoning. Ice beast is super powerful and not hard to get online early and mana vipers solve all sorts of problems.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 18:31

Meunkin: Sep 11, 2001; puppiespuppiespuppies

I never knew hand crossbows were so good, got this one early on and only 10 to hit min delay seems rad, I think it was on the same floor as the gloves of archery.

Xom has been hilarious this run, keeps summoning in ice fiends exactly when I don't want him to, but gave me that mutation set and rN+++ neck. Thanks, Xom!

It's weird that eveningstars are one-handed but double swords aren't. I never play small species and can never remember what their restrictions are.

meunkin the Bludgeoner (Kobold Chaos Knight) Turns: 50754, Time: 03:18:25

Health: 152/152 AC: 32 Str: 21 XL: 21 Next: 12%
Magic: 19/19 EV: 17 Int: 14 God: Xom [...*..]
Gold: 1313 SH: 17 Dex: 16 Spells: 17/20 levels left

rFire + + + SeeInvis . b - +9 hand crossbow of Tuits {elec, rC+}
rCold + + . Gourm . U - +2 shield
rNeg + + + Faith . o - +3 plate armour {rPois}
rPois + Spirit . u - +1 hat
rElec . Reflect . B - +2 cloak {rC+}
rCorr . Harm . I - +2 pair of gloves {archery}
MR ++... S - +2 pair of boots {run}
Stlth .......... x - amulet "Dudoj" {RegenMP rN+++ MP-9}
Regen 0.4/turn V - ring of protection from fire
MPRegen 0.3/turn s - +3 ring of evasion

Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are small and have problems with some larger weapons.
You are carnivorous and can eat meat at any time.
You have sharp fingernails.
You have a pair of small horns on your head.
You are partially covered in thin metallic scales. (AC +2)
Your flesh is very heat resistant. (rF++)
You are resistant to hostile enchantments. (MR+)
You are very robust. (+20% HP)
You are covered in fur. (AC +1)
Your muscles are very strong. (Str +4)
Your spells are a little harder to cast, but a little more powerful.
You rapidly evolve.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 21:16

Internet Kraken: Apr 24, 2010; slightly amused

Toadsmash posted:

Tomb has one-way stairs between floors now, which is even worse for a Chei character than other players. You need a plan for getting around that, is probably the biggest thing if you've done extended. I relied heavily on Passage of Golubria, Silence, Aura of Abjuration, and Control Undead.

Have magic maps and be ready to use them when Pan tries to shaft you with a bad floor entrance. They'll save your rear end over and over.

Probably post more when I have time later. FoFiChei is the exact combo I won my first extended with. You can look at my dump for a reference point:

http://crawl.akrasiac.org/rawdata/Toadsmash/morgue-Toadsmash-20170829-230512.txt

On the subject of Tomb, has anything about it actually been changed since that commit or is this another case of devs saying there would be more to a rework and then doing gently caress all?

# ? Oct 1, 2017 21:27

Sage Grimm: Feb 18, 2013; Let's go explorin' little dude!

I don't believe so but there wasn't anything explicitly stated that this was the first of a wave of changes to Tomb. There was a lot of handwavy comments about certain aspects not working (Tomb:2 ambush still is a deathtrap) from us and that was it.

I like what it did to Tomb:3.

# ? Oct 1, 2017 23:35

Toadsmash: Jun 10, 2009; Dave Tate's downsy face approves.

2 and 3 feel pretty much identical to me in all but scale. Tomb 3 is just a bigger, badder version. The one way stairs aren't as bad as they sound on paper, either. I didn't get to do pre- .20 Tomb, but I strongly suspect it felt way too similar to Vault 5 in strategy, and there's nothing tactically interesting about stair dancing your way through an army for 15 minutes straight. The hatches back up spawn at extremely predictable locations. You just need to have a plan for surviving getting to them. Or do it the grindy way and just go in with torment immunity.

My biggest issue with Tomb is that compared to most of the rest of the game, you really don't have a snowball's chance in hell of surviving it unspoiled no matter how attention you're paying. If you don't have a hard gameplan going in for how you're going to handle its obstacles, you'll just lose.

# ? Oct 2, 2017 00:43

I am Otis: Sep 22, 2003

Thanks for the gnoll poo poo floodkiller. Although I did like that you couldn't pick Trog because locking out such a strong god was kind of cool. Not criticism but I enjoy challenge classes and conduct runs (idk if that's the term but I think you know what I mean)

What's the word on the Wu Jian council? I remember that some of the crawl devs made a lot of changes very quickly. I thought it was a cool god but haven't picked it since the special movement based directional attacks were changed to the same efficacy as just running to a hall or corner and fighting.

# ? Oct 2, 2017 03:26

Meunkin: Sep 11, 2001; puppiespuppiespuppies

Xom best god

You have very sharp fingernails.
You have a pair of small horns on your head.
You have large cloven feet.
You are partially covered in slimy green scales. (AC +2)
You are partially covered in thin metallic scales. (AC +2)
You can translocate small distances at will.
Your mind is acute. (Int +2)
Your flesh is cold resistant. (rC+)
Your flesh is almost immune to the effects of heat. (rF+++)
You have an increased reservoir of magic. (+10% MP)
You are extremely resistant to the effects of hostile enchantments. (MR+++)
You passively map a small area around you.
You are very robust. (+20% HP)
You are covered in fur. (AC +1)
You are resistant to electric shocks. (rElec)
Your muscles are very strong. (Str +4)
Your spells are a little harder to cast, but a little more powerful.
You evolve.

Meunkin fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Oct 2, 2017

# ? Oct 2, 2017 05:20

SteelNeuron: Feb 23, 2017

I am Otis posted:

What's the word on the Wu Jian council? I remember that some of the crawl devs made a lot of changes very quickly. I thought it was a cool god but haven't picked it since the special movement based directional attacks were changed to the same efficacy as just running to a hall or corner and fighting.

I lost motivation to work on it after a couple of my PR's were rejected by MarvinPA. After the change to restrict wall jumps to land near enemies, and the removal of slow on whirlwind, I tried a few alternate approaches but I was met with a wall, and I just didn't have it in me to keep arguing.

Last I know is MarvinPA is looking to work on it to get it primed for 0.21. There were talks of merging it with Uskayaw, which from what I gather just means axing it and giving Uskayaw Lunge and maybe Whirlwind, but thankfully it seems like the devs have moved away from that idea for now. I have no idea in which direction MarvinPA wants to take it, so we shall see.

# ? Oct 2, 2017 14:47

I am Otis: Sep 22, 2003

That sucks :/ Thanks for the effort, friend.

# ? Oct 2, 2017 14:51

SteelNeuron: Feb 23, 2017

Cheers. If you're curious, here is the last PR on the matter: https://github.com/crawl/crawl/pull/502

The discussion mentioned at the end didn't lead anywhere really.

# ? Oct 2, 2017 15:02

Pacra: Aug 5, 2004

Happy 20th birthday Crawl :woop:

(it was yesterday to be fair)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.roguelike.misc/AzYHcmpPSqw/2l-5yhzS_uIJ

# ? Oct 3, 2017 06:44

the Orb of Zot: Jun 25, 2013; Apport: the Orb of Zot
The orb shrieks as your magic touches it!
Yoink! You pull the item towards yourself.
You see here the Orb of Zot.

code:

 Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.21-a0-344-g2144152 (console) character file.

1553955 Lightli the Gelid (level 27, 217/217 HPs)
             Began as a Gnoll Ice Elementalist on Oct 5, 2017.
             Was the Champion of Okawaru.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 3 runes!
             
             The game lasted 04:21:11 (84287 turns).

http://crawl.berotato.org/crawl/morgue/Lightli/morgue-Lightli-20171005-064924.txt

Gnoll mk 3 won. Definitely much more powerful, and now actually fun (it's nice to be able to just use anything you want)

EDIT: One thing I did notice over my attempts to win was that there's this very specific spot starting from about the end of lair to about V:4 where gnolls are really weak, because they don't quite have the skill levels needed to handle the enemies anymore and nowhere easier to go. I circumvented that on my win by doing spider first; OTR + Ignite Poison kills everything there but demonic crawlers, ghost moths, and emperor scorpions, and my +9 eveningstar was enough to deal with the latter two with ice beast backing.

the Orb of Zot fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Oct 5, 2017

# ? Oct 5, 2017 09:14

I am Otis: Sep 22, 2003

Don't talk about how Gnoll is a strong race because then they will make the gnoll lovely. I just won 2 gnolls in a row over the last 2 days. Current gnoll is so dungeon crawl. You pick any low-mid tier weapon or book and you can just use it. the synergy is awesome and you don't have to think "do I use summons or conjurations or Yred or wait for a necro book" you just do it and it's fun as hell. Since gnolls get stat gain now it's worthwhile to play them

Just in case a dev not named pleasing fungus (rip) is reading this, if you are thinking of neutering this race, remember that gargoyles and Trog are in this single player game.

edit: happpy birthday dungeon crawl. This game has been my go to game for like 7 years and if you loving remove gnoll or dick it up i will be unhappy. Otis has spoken

# ? Oct 5, 2017 10:54

Akett: Aug 6, 2012

Gnolls aren't stupid strong, they are just so ridiculously versatile that if you know what you're doing you can leverage way higher above your weight class than you expect. When a Gnoll worships Ash they do get kind of really silly, like they don't have a midgame hump.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 04:42

tote up a bags: Jun 8, 2006; die stoats die

Gnolls own, ive gone from venom mage to melee brawler to summoner so far this run, gnolls own do NOT change them, because they own

# ? Oct 6, 2017 04:46

I am Otis: Sep 22, 2003

We're having a good time with gnolls. DCSS is fun

# ? Oct 6, 2017 07:33

Serephina: Nov 8, 2005; 恐竜戦隊
ジュウレンジャー

gently caress all of you, I guess I'll update from .19 because they sound so fun. Are Gnolls in trunk or a special branch hidden somewhere?

# ? Oct 6, 2017 13:07

FulsomFrank: Sep 11, 2005; Hard on for love

You fools what are you doing? Gnolls as we know them are finished the way you've been talking in this thread

# ? Oct 6, 2017 14:19

Floodkiller: May 31, 2011

Serephina posted:

gently caress all of you, I guess I'll update from .19 because they sound so fun. Are Gnolls in trunk or a special branch hidden somewhere?

Gnolls are currently in trunk, feel free to try 'em and add to the doomsaying!

# ? Oct 6, 2017 14:43

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

FulsomFrank posted:

You fools what are you doing? Gnolls as we know them are finished the way you've been talking in this thread

It's okay, we aren't an 'official' DCSS discussion thread.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 19:35

Zaodai: May 23, 2009; Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.

jon joe posted:

It's okay, we aren't an 'official' DCSS discussion thread.

We are for the purposes of having fun or entertaining things taken away.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 19:36

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

I'm dedicated to trying to make a GnGl of Gozag work but drat if the combo doesn't have the world's worst inventory management.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 19:37

LogicNinja: Jan 21, 2011; ...the blur blurs blurringly across the blurred blur in a blur of blurring blurriness that blurred...

Zaodai posted:

We are for the purposes of having fun or entertaining things taken away.

I literally thought about posting "Wow, Gnolls are super fun, I hope they don't get removed/horribly altered" but then I didn't, just in case that would make someone remove them. But I guess we're talking about it now.

e: Who's won a Gnoll yet? How do you handle lategame?

# ? Oct 6, 2017 19:41

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# ? May 31, 2024 20:05

Emmideer: Oct 20, 2011; Lovely night, no?; Grimey Drawer

Gnolls, as a species, definitely make me feel the 52 item limit more than any other. Especially mid game. Even with as strong as they are I don't think I want to play them once I get the win I want, because that item shuffling reminds me of the hell days of stashes.

# ? Oct 6, 2017 19:44

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