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self unaware posted:it doesn't but the mere fact you have to qualify this with words like "usually" and "okay" probably means you know that too It does for consumer goods with low to moderate barriers for entry, such as retail.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:06
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:It does for consumer goods with low to moderate barriers for entry, such as retail. lol at thinking retail has low or moderate barriers to entry but beyond that, he's using the word "capitalism" when I think he means "competitive markets". which aren't the same thing
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Jun 4, 2018 20:12
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That's why I qualified it. If the market isn't competitive then yes things tend to suck poo poo.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:14
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so why use the world "capitalism" and not "markets"? what does the owners of capital being private individuals have to do with using competitive markets to lower prices?
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Jun 4, 2018 20:17
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Cicero posted:That's why I qualified it. If the market isn't competitive then yes things tend to suck poo poo. Right now in America we're seeing less competition overall. Monopolies are happening again and they're awful.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:19
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When massively regulated in just the right ways, and in perfect conditions, and only in certain sectors, during the right economic conditions, capitalism sometimes distributes and prices goods in a way that is "ok"
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Jun 4, 2018 20:21
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really it's just that people like Cicero who benefit greatly from today's economic paradigm look for any time they can sneak in a nugget of "this is why capitalism is good!" even if it has nothing to do with what you're talking about. Victories are hard to come by these days
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Jun 4, 2018 20:23
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self unaware posted:lol at thinking retail has low or moderate barriers to entry Retail and food service are the most common new businesses started by a sole proprietor. Lots of them fail, but part of the reason for that is because it has a relatively low barrier to entry.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:34
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What's left of socialist countries isn't exactly making for great new stories either though. Venezuela: collapsing; Cuba: slowly becoming capitalist; Vietnam: Rapidly becoming capitalist; North Korea: lol
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Jun 4, 2018 20:35
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Cicero posted:What's left of socialist countries isn't exactly making for great new stories either though. Venezuela: collapsing; Cuba: slowly becoming capitalist; Vietnam: Rapidly becoming capitalist; North Korea: lol Jesus Christ this is some disingenuous horseshit. Cicero, have you made so much money that you have to defend capitalism at every turn now, by comparing America to third world countries and saying "lol socialism"? How's France doing? How's Sweden doing?
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Jun 4, 2018 20:38
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None of those countries are socialist 
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Jun 4, 2018 20:40
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the tu cuck fallacy
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Jun 4, 2018 20:41
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Baronjutter posted:None of those countries are socialist I'm well aware Neither are Vietnam or North Korea but you didn't seem to mind that part.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:42
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WampaLord posted:How's France doing? How's Sweden doing?
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Jun 4, 2018 20:42
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WampaLord posted:I'm well aware
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Jun 4, 2018 20:43
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Cicero posted:Wait so France and Sweden are considered by D&D to be socialist now? They certainly have more socialist policies than we do, don't play dumb and act like democratic socialism isn't closer to socialism than what we have. Like your defense of capitalism is "eh it makes prices fine I guess except for rent/healthcare/etc but LOL look at Venezuela, I guess Ameircan style capitalism is the best option possible!"
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Jun 4, 2018 20:43
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WampaLord posted:I'm well aware I meant them mostly.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:44
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WampaLord posted:They certainly have more socialist policies than we do, don't play dumb and act like democratic socialism isn't closer to socialism than what we have. The annoying thing about "capitalism" and "socialism" is that everyone has their own definition, sometimes multiple definitions that they randomly switch in and out. Like if Vietnam pre-copying-China's-state-capitalism and North Korea don't count as socialist I'm not sure what does. Does the USSR not count either then? I was pretty sure most of D&D thought social democracy didn't count but now it seems unclear.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:45
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WampaLord posted:Jesus Christ this is some disingenuous horseshit. Given the track record of the alternatives capitalism is doing ok.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:48
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Cicero posted:Not playing dumb, when it comes to the kinds of consumer goods I'm talking about that sparked this little argument those countries are still very thoroughly capitalist. imo the annoying thing is the unconscionable mass human suffering that gets worse every second we have to waste paying lip service to capitalism and pretending that property isn't a completely fake and immoral idea so that wealthy people can pretend they aren't screaming babies terrified of their own mortality and too cucked and or cowardly to change. lmao
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Jun 4, 2018 20:49
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capitalism is probably going to kill humanity with unchecked consumption as we destroy the biosphere necessary to sustain our existence but you know, so far, it's doing alright, sort of
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Jun 4, 2018 20:49
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boner confessor posted:capitalism is probably going to kill humanity with unchecked consumption as we destroy the biosphere necessary to sustain our existence but you know, so far, it's doing alright, sort of
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Jun 4, 2018 20:50
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boner confessor posted:capitalism is probably going to kill humanity with unchecked consumption as we destroy the biosphere necessary to sustain our existence but you know, so far, it's doing alright, sort of That's not really a trait inherent in capitalism, though. It's driven by technology and population growth demand requirements. The Soviet Union and China were the most ecologically disastrous governments in the world from 1950 to 1995.
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Jun 4, 2018 20:51
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Cicero posted:Ah yes let's just pretend that the record of socialist governments on pollution was so great tu cuck
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Jun 4, 2018 20:52
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crazy cloud posted:imo the annoying thing is the unconscionable mass human suffering that gets worse every second we have to waste paying lip service to capitalism and pretending that property isn't a completely fake and immoral idea so that wealthy people can pretend they aren't screaming babies terrified of their own mortality and too cucked and or cowardly to change. lmao
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Jun 4, 2018 20:52
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property is the worst idea ever had, followed by corporation, followed by nation-state, but it's a close photo finish and arguable 3 way tie
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Jun 4, 2018 20:53
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Cicero posted:Capitalism is good at some things and bad at others, sorry you can't handle nuance good at creating and exacerbating human misery and ecological destruction sure yes very good at some things
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Jun 4, 2018 20:54
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Cicero posted:Capitalism is good at some things and bad at others, sorry you can't handle nuance funny how the people who aren't getting $300k a year from google to help create the dystopian hell society turning earth into an uninhabitable fireball can't handle "nuance"
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Jun 4, 2018 20:58
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Cicero posted:Capitalism is good at some things and bad at others, sorry you can't handle nuance We have pretty much reached a form of feudalism, as the wealth inequality is so great that gains that can be made through market labor are so low to never be able to break into anything resembling a capitalist market paradigm. The barriers to entry are so manufactured as to to not have any real relation to returns or value. The though you could have enough capital, unless you start with it, to compete in any material market is laughable.
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Jun 4, 2018 21:00
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Cicero posted:Ah yes let's just pretend that the record of socialist governments on pollution was so great I do believe that you are, as is essential with any defense of modern consumer capitalism, doing a sterling job in attempting to ignore the hideous environmental consequences of manufacturing and transporting cheap consumer goods to feed that market.
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Jun 4, 2018 21:01
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*looks around at ruined hellscape and towering piles of human and animal corpses* we produced a lot of shareholder value though and outperformed our Q3 benchmarks
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Jun 4, 2018 21:01
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WampaLord posted:They certainly have more socialist policies than we do, don't play dumb and act like democratic socialism isn't closer to socialism than what we have. IDK... Sweden ranks slightly higher (#15 vs #18) on the 'economic freedom' indices than does the U.S.A. FWIW, progressive favorite Denmark is #12.
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Jun 4, 2018 21:02
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BlueBlazer posted:We have pretty much reached a form of feudalism, as the wealth inequality is so great that gains that can be made through market labor are so low to never be able to break into anything resembling a capitalist market paradigm. The barriers to entry are so manufactured as to to not have any real relation to returns or value. Now now, don't shatter his dreams of being a
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Jun 4, 2018 21:02
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boner confessor posted:capitalism is probably going to kill humanity with unchecked consumption as we destroy the biosphere necessary to sustain our existence but you know, so far, it's doing alright, sort of It's probably the opposite; environmentalism is a luxury good. If you want to observe the effect yourself, travel through a few poor countries and then a few rich countries.
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Jun 4, 2018 21:06
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self unaware posted:funny how the people who aren't getting $300k a year from google to help create the dystopian hell society turning earth into an uninhabitable fireball can't handle "nuance" Liquid Communism posted:I do believe that you are, as is essential with any defense of modern consumer capitalism, doing a sterling job in attempting to ignore the hideous environmental consequences of manufacturing and transporting cheap consumer goods to feed that market.
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Jun 4, 2018 21:08
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gaj70 posted:It's probably the opposite; environmentalism is a luxury good. If you want to observe the effect yourself, travel through a few poor countries and then a few rich countries. These aren't independent cases u fucken dip The poor countries have not chosen hey let's be poor and let's also not buy solar panels They are impoverished because of the actions of the rich countries And you already know all this lmao
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Jun 4, 2018 21:08
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Cicero posted:These things are deal-with-able via regulation, and developed countries are steadily getting better at that, with cleaner energy being an obvious example. And as has been noted on this page, socialist governments had their own incredibly lovely records on the environment, the only thing keeping them from being worse was their own poverty. It is not on 'developing countries' to 'get better at that'. Their environmental problems were, for the most part, the direct result of profit-seeking exploitation by companies based in wealthier parts of the world who would not have to deal with the situation directly.
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Jun 4, 2018 21:13
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Cicero posted:I have no problem admitting capitalism has contributed to global warming, I'm not sure what Google in particular has to do with that though. Google is crazy about clean energy. more like crazy about keeping online advertising having as much influence as possible so they can sell their poo poo ads to as many eyeballs as possible lol at looking at global warming and saying "the largest advertising company on earth probably has nothing to do with it" while poor third worlders "salvage" your thrown out devices and die of cancer at 25
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Jun 4, 2018 21:15
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gaj70 posted:It's probably the opposite; environmentalism is a luxury good. If you want to observe the effect yourself, travel through a few poor countries and then a few rich countries. ah. because there is no capitalism in poor countries
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Jun 4, 2018 21:15
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Liquid Communism posted:It is not on 'developing countries' to 'get better at that'. quote:Their environmental problems were, for the most part, the direct result of profit-seeking exploitation by companies based in wealthier parts of the world who would not have to deal with the situation directly.
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Jun 4, 2018 21:20
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