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Are you a This poll is closed. |
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| homeowner |
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39 | 22.41% |
| renter |
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69 | 39.66% |
| stupid peace of poo poo |
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66 | 37.93% |
| Total: | 174 votes | ||
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*opposes any realistic form of sex ed* *actively votes against any and all social support* *seeks to prevent loving couples adopting* *is a loving poo poo tier human being*
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May 15, 2016 05:43
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| # ? May 26, 2024 08:57 |
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I'm anti-abortion and anti-vaccination *starves while dying of preventable diseases*
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May 15, 2016 06:12
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Its loving infuriating what make women go through what we make them go through to get an abortion, even if a lot of the time it's with a wink and a nod. It treats women as less-then-human, and this isn't a popular opinion but a loving fetus ISN'T a "baby" - in fact, I don't even really think a viable pregnancy or a newborn can really be defined as a being that has any real conciousness. Abortion should be available on demand, without obstruction, to anyone who wants it. Its a medical procedure, not some important life changing event. If the pregnancy is clearly viable (like 38 weeks maybe) then maybe, maaaybe encourage birth or caesarian I dunno I haven't figured that part out.
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May 15, 2016 06:46
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klen dool posted:Its loving infuriating what make women go through what we make them go through to get an abortion, even if a lot of the time it's with a wink and a nod. It treats women as less-then-human, and this isn't a popular opinion but a loving fetus ISN'T a "baby" - in fact, I don't even really think a viable pregnancy or a newborn can really be defined as a being that has any real conciousness. Not that I disagree with you about legal abortions, but I want to point out that babies have lived at 24/26 weeks when born premature. 38 weeks is way way way past "viable"
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May 15, 2016 09:46
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Yeah, perhaps in the first trimester. Second might be down to the doctor, Third is right out.
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May 15, 2016 10:01
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Spiteski posted:Not that I disagree with you about legal abortions, but I want to point out that babies have lived at 24/26 weeks when born premature. 38 weeks is way way way past "viable" Yeah i know, I am erring on the side of caution. I think the viability debate is a red herring anyway, because there comes a certain point where it is moot. Performing an abortion at the extreme end of the scale - at say 38 weeks why not - would essentially have to be a caesarean (or perhaps an induction) because any other way would be dangerous to the mother, and if I was a doctor I think that if I thought I could keep the baby alive after the procedure I would have to try.
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May 15, 2016 10:15
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The only third term abortion the law should recognise is the current government.
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May 15, 2016 10:21
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I believe every man, woman and child should be aborted right now.
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May 15, 2016 10:30
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BARONS CYBER SKULL posted:I believe every man, woman and child should be aborted right now. gently caress its gonna stink like jonestown here in a couple weeks
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May 15, 2016 10:32
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Finally we're talking realistic solutions to the housing crisis.
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May 15, 2016 10:33
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Ghostlight posted:The only third term abortion the law should recognise is the current government. 
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May 15, 2016 11:03
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klen dool posted:gently caress its gonna stink like jonestown here in a couple weeks It will be fine, Barons lacks the charisma of a cult leader.
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May 15, 2016 11:17
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The thing that's missing from just about every debate on third trimester abortion is that elective terminations in the third trimester are basically non-existent. Third trimester abortions are done either to save the mother's life or with non-viable foetuses. Those anti-abortion posters wouldn't be nearly so common if they had to talk about the actual people they want to deny abortions. It's harder to cry "abortion is murder" when you're faced with the woman who you're forcing to carry a dead foetus to term.
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May 15, 2016 11:56
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klen dool posted:Yeah i know, I am erring on the side of caution. I think the viability debate is a red herring anyway, because there comes a certain point where it is moot. Performing an abortion at the extreme end of the scale - at say 38 weeks why not - would essentially have to be a caesarean (or perhaps an induction) because any other way would be dangerous to the mother, and if I was a doctor I think that if I thought I could keep the baby alive after the procedure I would have to try. What the gently caress is wrong with you? I'm hardly an "abortion is murder!" loon, but at 38 weeks we're most definitely talking about a real live baby. It's not a collection of cells. It isn't something that's barely living and needs extensive medical intervention to survive, babies turn up 2 weeks early with no problems all the time. 38 weeks is where the kid is turning up any day now. Goddamn goons.
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May 15, 2016 14:22
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Hence "at the extreme end of the scale"
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May 15, 2016 20:20
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fong posted:The thing that's missing from just about every debate on third trimester abortion is that elective terminations in the third trimester are basically non-existent. Third trimester abortions are done either to save the mother's life or with non-viable foetuses. It's funny how on one hand we have people saying "You can't order me to vaccinate my child, it's my choice" while on the other we have "You can't have an abortion because that's killing an unborn person". Both are equally stupid. Also, fun facts: 500,000 abortions in 42 years is around 12,000 per year. If 500,000 more people were alive today then the population of New Zealand would increase by around 12% (probably more if you add the whole "children of their own" thing in). As someone who doesn't want children, and who has a partner who doesn't want children, being forced to have children would royally gently caress over our lives.
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May 15, 2016 20:29
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kris_b posted:What the gently caress is wrong with you? I'm hardly an "abortion is murder!" loon, but at 38 weeks we're most definitely talking about a real live baby. It's not a collection of cells. It isn't something that's barely living and needs extensive medical intervention to survive, babies turn up 2 weeks early with no problems all the time. 38 weeks is where the kid is turning up any day now. I like how you completely ignored the previous post in this thread about how people ignore the points he brought up in the post.
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May 15, 2016 20:59
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kris_b posted:What the gently caress is wrong with you? I'm hardly an "abortion is murder!" loon, but at 38 weeks we're most definitely talking about a real live baby. It's not a collection of cells. It isn't something that's barely living and needs extensive medical intervention to survive, babies turn up 2 weeks early with no problems all the time. 38 weeks is where the kid is turning up any day now. What's wrong with me? Nothing. I did say " 38 weeks maybe" and "say 38 weeks why not", and even "if I was a doctor I think that if I thought I could keep the baby alive after the procedure I would have to try". Those things imply that the 38 week figure was just an example, a place to start from, I am not an expert on pregnancy and viability - although I do have a few doctor friends, one of which is a paediatrician who I have talked to a lot about how we are able to keep babies alive earlier and earlier out of the womb. I should be asking what is wrong with you? You aggressively asserted I am somehow damaged, and that everyone else here is some sort of social misfit, and it seems you intentionally misread or misunderstood what I wrote. Although - and this is something you could probably have a go at me about - I suspect that even newborns are not developed enough to be considered human in the sense that they have no understanding of the world and almost certainly have no sense of self and probably have no conciousness. This could be a justification for infanticide not being considered as serious as murder, in fact, perhaps not even be a crime (specifically in the case when a women kills her own child). But then where do you draw the line? When the child passes the mirror test? I don't know. Do we err on the mothers side, or the babies side when we exercise caution? A 38 week abortion would have to be an inducement or caesarian, probably anything passed 26 weeks would have to be due to the danger posed to the mother, so perhaps this is a moot point.
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May 15, 2016 21:55
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Binkenstein posted:It's funny how on one hand we have people saying "You can't order me to vaccinate my child, it's my choice" while on the other we have "You can't have an abortion because that's killing an unborn person". Both are equally stupid. I think not vaccinating your children is child abuse, and cyfs should be involved.
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May 15, 2016 21:58
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Some immunocompromised people can't be vaccinated (and rely on the herd effect to protect them), so that's probably a bit sweeping There's a measles outbreak in the Waikato right now 
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May 15, 2016 22:09
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The Schwa posted:Some immunocompromised people can't be vaccinated (and rely on the herd effect to protect them), so that's probably a bit sweeping So ....child abuse? If I had a kid who couldn't be vaccinated and relies on the herd effect to protect them I'd be pretty hosed off if my neighbour decides his precious flower doesn't get any shots because he's got magic crystals to protect them instead.
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May 15, 2016 22:57
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I see your point, and I absolutely think kids should be vaccinated if they can, but I'm not sure you'd have much luck getting Child, Youth and Family involved on those grounds (i.e. that other people are putting your child at risk by not vaccinating their own kids) We were talking about this at work on Friday, and someone mentioned somewhere (France?) that has legislated that kids aren't allowed to attend public school unless they've been vaccinated
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May 15, 2016 23:30
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klen dool posted:Although - and this is something you could probably have a go at me about - I suspect that even newborns are not developed enough to be considered human in the sense that they have no understanding of the world and almost certainly have no sense of self and probably have no conciousness. This could be a justification for infanticide not being considered as serious as murder, in fact, perhaps not even be a crime (specifically in the case when a women kills her own child). But then where do you draw the line? When the child passes the mirror test? I don't know. Do we err on the mothers side, or the babies side when we exercise caution? Yeah I think most people would probably have a go at you over that one as you sound like an utter lunatic
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May 15, 2016 23:49
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I am guessing he hasn't had much exposure to new borns. I certainly noticed our two seemed to be 'there' from the day they were born.
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May 16, 2016 00:09
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Varkk posted:I am guessing he hasn't had much exposure to new borns. I certainly noticed our two seemed to be 'there' from the day they were born. I don't endorse anything klen dool posts and I don't agree with him in this case but I want to point out that 'MY kid was totes sentient at birth!' is a useless stupid argument. Your own children don't count if you're trying to make an anecdote about infant intelligence.
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May 16, 2016 00:18
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A fresh octopus dish doused with soy seems to be 'alive'. It's absolutely certain that determining consciousness requires a degree off interaction that babies absolutely cannot demonstrate to a degree that differentiates their responses from pure stimulatory reaction. The answer is that you err on the side of caution and don't abort babies after birth because even if they cannot be absolutely demonstrated to be conscious, they also cannot be absolutely demonstrated to not be conscious. This helpfully avoids wasting state money on medical procedures for post-birth abortions as well as the slippery slope of well now how much consciousness does one need to be "human"?
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May 16, 2016 00:26
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The Schwa posted:Some immunocompromised people can't be vaccinated (and rely on the herd effect to protect them), so that's probably a bit sweeping Well obviously the caveat applies, but it's not like I thought I had to write a thesis....
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May 16, 2016 00:29
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swampland posted:Yeah I think most people would probably have a go at you over that one as you sound like an utter lunatic Okay, I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I don't think I am a lunatic
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May 16, 2016 00:31
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I just found out this is a thing and I don't know what to think. Apologies if I'm the last person to find out about it.
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May 16, 2016 00:35
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Varkk posted:I am guessing he hasn't had much exposure to new borns. I certainly noticed our two seemed to be 'there' from the day they were born. I will be a dad in a couple months, and I am sure I'll feel differently, but no my exposure to newborns is limited.. But people anthropomorphise things all the time. Babies have an innate ability to see, recognise, and follow faces specifically, this subsides after a couple of months leaving a gap in their cognition until their visual cortex kicks in and they start to learn to recognising faces with their visual cortex instead. A lot of baby behaviour is reflexive but we see this and think they think like us. I often sit there looking at my cat, wondering how much of his behaviour is conscious and reasoned. Kind of ironic really, because this supposed that I think my behaviour is reasoned and conscious, and I am not sure it always is. But in my defence, when I see my friends kids like toddlers and younger, they are definitely 'there' as much as I think any human is. Even new borns, I intellectually question how conscious they are when I see them but my humanity is right there and I feel all clucky and hopeful for their future and protective and just love really. klen dool fucked around with this message at 00:44 on May 16, 2016 |
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May 16, 2016 00:41
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Ghostlight posted:A fresh octopus dish doused with soy seems to be 'alive'. Well said, I agree with everything you posted. Also, that last question also could be applied to other animals - is a dolphin or a chimp or a cat human? Can we eat cows? I hope so 
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May 16, 2016 00:46
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Intelligence is a sliding scale and if you think about it too much you end up deciding that the existence of zoos and meat animals is monstrous and horrible; I firmly believe this is the case. But if you keep thinking you realise intelligence and ethics are meaningless bollocks made up by spongy meatbrains and none of it matters in the slightest; I also firmly believe this to be the case. Then you go to the shops and buy some bacon because it's delicious, which I also firmly believe is the case.
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May 16, 2016 00:54
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klen dool posted:Okay, I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I don't think I am a lunatic klen dool posted:"This could be a justification for infanticide not being considered as serious as murder, in fact, perhaps not even be a crime (specifically in the case when a women kills her own child). But then where do you draw the line? When the child passes the mirror test? I don't know. Do we err on the mothers side, or the babies side when we exercise caution? " What is the argument here? What exactly is the mother's side when we're talking about a baby that's already born? It has nothing to do with her body or her health anymore. Like seriously you're actually wondering whether killing babies should be legal.
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May 16, 2016 01:25
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We're all born to die.
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May 16, 2016 01:35
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swampland posted:What is the argument here? What exactly is the mother's side when we're talking about a baby that's already born? It has nothing to do with her body or her health anymore. Like seriously you're actually wondering whether killing babies should be legal. It should be.
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May 16, 2016 02:02
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Just for interest under ancient Jewish religious law in various sources the embryo is considered 'water' until something like the fortieth day and the birthed infant does not even gain human status until several days of being alive out of the womb. This is of course a post-hoc policy to make things simpler since so many babies died in birth. Our ideas about these biological constants and truths are malleable, and we can only go with ethically trained medically experts (doctors) in conversation in confidence with patients to make the best decisions for the patient etc. truism
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May 16, 2016 02:05
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On a side note folks living over here in the USA is all going swell but there are just occasionally a few things that make me cringe so hard, and its hard not just exuding a complete sense of superiority and being judgmental about some things. Its nice knowing some Kiwis over here and there is definitely a comforting expat thing here
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May 16, 2016 02:08
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swampland posted:What is the argument here? What exactly is the mother's side when we're talking about a baby that's already born? It has nothing to do with her body or her health anymore. Like seriously you're actually wondering whether killing babies should be legal. Yes, I am. Well, I am pondering how illegal it should be. Or under what extenuating circumstances do we as a society forgive infanticide, and are those circumstances the same as if you kill an adult or are they different. I don't believe these questions should be off the table, nor are the currant "common sense" or "obvious". This is way off topic of abortions in Nz, and whether women should have any restrictions to them, and maybe even the actual lunatics who gently caress around with logic and statistics and post full page ads to convince people that abortions is not economic and also puppies are cute, to hide the real reason - religious beliefs ingrained into society about children. But I am happy to continue this discussion. If it makes you feel uncomfortable then perhaps maybe don't engage? Up to you.
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May 16, 2016 02:13
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On a serendipitous note MSN news reported to me today that some baby killing woman in the UK got beat up in prison and everyone was glad of it.
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May 16, 2016 02:18
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| # ? May 26, 2024 08:57 |
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Also ancient Jewish law doesn't apply because New Zealand is a properly [correct-version] God-fearing nation built on the teachings of Jesus who famously said "do not think I have come to abolish the law" . It's good to hear you are doing well. Have you learnt to stop saying oval office yet?
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May 16, 2016 02:22
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