|
every game should just continue the music and wipe the screen instantly like celeste, no matter what the style or aesthetic is.
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 00:27
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 17:29 |
|
|
Mazerunner posted:regular grimm does 3 bats that track, nightmare grimm does 4 bats in a high-low-high-low pattern Ah, right. It must have been 'jump over the first, double jump over the second, you get to heal over the third and fourth'. Either way it was the only time I looked up a guide until pantheons.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 01:03
|
|
|
b_d posted:i disagree that it sucks to learn. the intro and music start are badass and restarting the fight is like a 10 second dream transition + superdash. It took me A LOT of attempts. At one point I thought it was beyond my capabilities. Someday I’ll go back and do the pantheons. But not today. I should also say that I’ve benefited greatly from watching other people play. I did the fight blind, but I apparently do well at imitating better players on replays. Which I still do every few months.
|
|
#
?
Feb 4, 2022 03:56
|
|
|
Imo Pure Vessel is a more interesting and enjoyable fight than NKG
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 13:49
|
|
|
pure vessel is very good but nkg is also very good. they're very different styles of fight
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 16:14
|
|
|
Pure Vessel is harder in my opinion. Both felt great to finally beat, though.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 16:47
|
|
|
Pure Vessel is a much faster fight, both in you killing it and it killing you. Personally I like it more than NKG but both are very good!
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 17:49
|
|
|
BBJoey posted:Imo Pure Vessel is a more interesting and enjoyable fight than NKG I feel the same way, but a lot more people have probably faced NKG
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:26
|
|
|
Pure vessel feels a lot more annoyingly RNG based. If he doesn't jump then the fight's a walkover but if he does it a lot then you're screwed because it's unreactable. Unless you opt to never pogo him, at which point you're making the fight a lot lot harder on yourself.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:28
|
|
|
So, pogoing is a strat that leads to damage you can't avoid, therefore the fight is 'annoyingly RNG?' and not, perhaps, designed so that you can't/shouldn't just pogo?
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:40
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:Pure vessel feels a lot more annoyingly RNG based. If he doesn't jump then the fight's a walkover but if he does it a lot then you're screwed because it's unreactable. Unless you opt to never pogo him, at which point you're making the fight a lot lot harder on yourself. Strong disagree, his jump is specifically about discouraging pogo spam which you should not need to do. Quick slash makes the fight much easier if you don't pogo
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:43
|
|
|
It's a risk reward calculation. Pure Vessel only has one attack that meaningfully threatens the area above him. So the average pure vessel fight is a tonne easier if you pogo him because you're negating the majority of his attacks. If he happens to throw a six on the dice multiple times though you pretty much die instantly with no way of stopping it. So yeah, I don't really like that aspect at all. It also has the knock on effect of the fight getting easier as it goes on and he gains more attacks because it makes the jump less likely.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:45
|
|
|
Imo you should just fight him correctly Actually it's kind of interesting how the pantheons basically prevent you from using strats like that. You may be able to cheese the boss 80 percent of the time, but you're probably better off fighting him legit when you're 45 minutes into a pantheon run. Martman fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 5, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 19:48
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:It's a risk reward calculation. We're saying that you can mitigate the risk of being annoyed by RNG by pogoing less. The jump is a punishment for relying too much on pogoing
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 20:03
|
|
|
The sting of dying on steel soul mode has passed, so I'm replaying a normal run. Love this game. I feel like I find new details every time. The soundtrack and sound in this game is just amazing. Feels real good to trounce on Nosk. Trying new combinations of charms, actually remembering to use spells instead of just swinging. I think this is the run I take down NKG.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 21:47
|
|
|
QuarkJets posted:We're saying that you can mitigate the risk of being annoyed by RNG by pogoing less. The jump is a punishment for relying too much on pogoing Okay yes, I can learn the fight and stay grounded and have a perfect 100% clear chance on it. But to beat it on Radiant I need to beat it just once without being hit and doing the easy strat and relying on no 6s (metaphorically) is much easier and likely much faster. To beat it on the way to AR, yes, I introduce a x% failure chance, but again, on average that's a big time saving on learning the grounded strat. I think when the most efficient way of beating something involves an RNG failure chance, it's not as fun.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 23:30
|
|
|
It's not the most efficient way!! Rolling the dice on a late-pantheon fight is costing you more time than it's saving, almost certainly. If you want to do a dumb risky thing then go for it, but don't expect sympathy when it repeatedly backfires.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 23:40
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:Okay yes, I can learn the fight and stay grounded and have a perfect 100% clear chance on it. You're taking it as a given that it's more efficient, but I really don't think that that's true. The jump isn't just randomly triggered, it's much more likely to trigger while you're in the air above the boss. For whatever it's worth, I've cleared every boss on Radiant. Personally, I have low tolerance for RNG because of how frustrating it is to know that there was nothing you could do to prevent a death. Zote was a much greater challenge for me than Pure Vessel because some of the RNG there is impossible to mitigate. Pure Vessel is the opposite, every attack is well-telegraphed except the jump and you can completely eliminate the jump as a concern by not pogoing. I don't know whether leaning hard on RNG could have resulted in a faster clear on Pure Vessel, but I do know that I'd have to deal with exactly what you're experiencing now: frustration, and feeling like I'm not having fun. If you're not having fun using a specific strategy, then you should stop using it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2022 23:59
|
|
|
I never even considered pogoing radiance. Seemed easier to stay under him and scream.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 00:07
|
|
|
"you can randomly die on the boss because he can hit you if you use the best strategy against him" is some amazing logic.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 00:15
|
|
|
Arrhythmia posted:I never even considered pogoing radiance. Seemed easier to stay under him and scream. Even easier to not fight radiance at all and considering the game beaten after HK.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 00:24
|
|
|
b_d posted:"you can randomly die on the boss because he can hit you if you use the best strategy against him" is some amazing logic. If you take their preconceptions as axiomatic, the logic isn't wrong.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 00:32
|
|
|
why would i do that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 00:40
|
|
|
Catpain Slack posted:Even easier to not fight radiance at all and considering the game beaten after HK. why would i do that.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 00:41
|
|
|
Catpain Slack posted:Even easier to not fight radiance at all and considering the game beaten after HK. We're talking about Radiant Pure Vessel, an optional boss that you can only get to after beating a bunch of optional boss rushes, with their own optional bosses that aren't even in the main game, on an optional difficulty setting that you can only unlock after defeating the same boss on another optional difficulty setting. So yeah we're pretty far into "Game's beaten, I'm playing for fun" territory which is why this is extra perplexing, because the OP is getting frustrated by a strategy that they've convinced themselves is optimal but a nightmare to actually use. Optimal for what, though? Optimal for getting to the point of no longer having to smash yourself into this optional-optional-optional-optional-optional boss fight? I think your post is pointing out an even more optimal solution to that problem
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 01:04
|
|
|
My goal is to beat the boss? If the fastest way to do that ends up being RNG so be it, once I've beaten it I've beaten it. The fun part for me is the moment when the boss falls over dead. The fastest way to get to the boss falling over dead isn't particularly good. So I didn't find the boss that good. Be that on normal/hard/radiant. If you want to run the harder strat to beat it more consistently eventually then be my guest. But I'm not going to fight him again after I've beaten him forever so I don't really see the point in that level of consistency. Edit: Fwiw I can absolutely respect the position that if you fight the boss without jumping or pogoing then it becomes a fight that's satisfying. But equally I think that the best design is where the most efficient/fun strat coincide with each other. Natural 20 fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Feb 6, 2022 |
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 01:23
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:My goal is to beat the boss? If the fastest way to do that ends up being RNG so be it, once I've beaten it I've beaten it. Everyone else in the thread is saying that pogoing is not an efficient strategy for Radiant Pure Vessel and that you should consider changing your approach if it's feeling frustrating. This is advice from several posters who have beaten that fight on that difficulty multiple times
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 02:18
|
|
|
"It's frustrating if I have to try" is such a dumb stance that I feel like the thread is almost certainly being trolled right now.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 02:20
|
|
|
I'm not necessarily supporting the argument above, but I think that's an unfair summation of what he's saying. Side note: I would argue that if the jump is indeed intended to counter pogoing specifically, it could be communicated better. I also stopped using pogo after getting clarted by the jump repeatedly, but it still felt "random" because the animation doesn't look like an attack/antiair - it looks like a reposition tool that just so happens to jump straight into you.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 02:37
|
|
|
Bleck posted:"It's frustrating if I have to try" is such a dumb stance that I feel like the thread is almost certainly being trolled right now. Like gently caress off with this. That's not at all what I'm saying. You can choose to accept some risk for an easier time. Doing so is a completely legit choice. It turns out that makes the fight less satisfying. Given I did that, I didn't like Pure Vessel as much. I do not get how this is some sort of unfathomable choice. QuarkJets posted:Everyone else in the thread is saying that pogoing is not an efficient strategy for Radiant Pure Vessel and that you should consider changing your approach if it's feeling frustrating. This is advice from several posters who have beaten that fight on that difficulty multiple times Okay look. Consider, you have learnt how to beat Pure Vessel by Pogoing. This is a tremendously reliable strat that has something like a 1/20 chance of failure if everything goes to poo poo and you don't adapt to it at normal. That failure is frustrating and RNG dependent. You beat it on every difficulty and get up to radiant, where the RNG effect is more pronounced since you can only be hit once. Even if you are right and the time it now takes to beat Pure Vessel by this method is outweighed by how unreliable RNG makes it, as a player, you do not know if relearning the fight is going to take longer than just winning the toss enough times. Honestly though, Radiant Pure Vessel is a tangent I probably shouldn't have introduced.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 02:41
|
|
|
Radiant Pure Vessel is like a dance, trying to beat it purely by pogoing cheapens the whole fight IMO.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 02:55
|
|
|
When I saw this many new posts in the morning I thought maybe Silksong had a release date but honestly this is actually much more entertaining. Just learn the fight, OP. Why are you trying to beat extremely end-game optional bosses if you apparently don't enjoy Hollow Knight combat? The PV fight is a lot of peoples' favourite fight, because it's fun to learn to counter boss attacks and hit it at the right moments. That's where the fun is! Why even beat PV if you're just trying to cheese it?
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 03:33
|
|
|
Organza Quiz posted:When I saw this many new posts in the morning I thought maybe Silksong had a release date but honestly this is actually much more entertaining. In what possible magical world have you inferred that I don't like Hollow Knight combat? What imagined person have you conjured that beats all of Hollow Knight including optional bosses on Radiant and doesn't like the combat?
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 03:56
|
|
|
The whole thing about Radiant fights is that they punish you for trying to cheese them and strongly encourage learning a proper way to handle everything because you can't just ignore attacks and facetank hits. If your strategy is dependent on hoping the boss decides to not use one of their attacks it's a bad strategy. It'd be like complaining that you beat False Champion by running at him spamming your nail with health & damage charms but Radiant Champion is ruining your 'reliable strategy'.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 04:05
|
|
|
Now I'm getting the itch to play Hollow Knight again, maybe just do Godseeker this time
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 04:10
|
|
|
 Bampanada
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 04:55
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:In what possible magical world have you inferred that I don't like Hollow Knight combat? What imagined person have you conjured that beats all of Hollow Knight including optional bosses on Radiant and doesn't like the combat? That's exactly why everyone is reacting the way they're reacting. You must be a person who enjoys Hollow Knight combat based on the fact that you are trying to beat all the radiant bosses, but you are acting like a person who doesn't enjoy Hollow Knight combat because you are trying to cheese a boss as quickly as possible and then complaining that the game is making that frustrating, instead of actually learning the fight.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 05:37
|
|
|
Natural 20 posted:In what possible magical world have you inferred that I don't like Hollow Knight combat? People who enjoy a thing generally don't go out of their way to avoid it and then complain if they can't.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 06:03
|
|
|
My take on Hollow Knight was "if you're going to do it the easy way, why bother" and so I stopped using magic because it steamrolled everything. Very few (no?) games out there can give you something as satisfying as a Hollow Knight boss fight, trying to cheese it just throws away the opportunity to experience such. Like playing The Flash in Marvel vs DC universe (yes its a bad game, but we were 18 and endless weed. [Flash is broken in that game, with every attack leading into a lengthy and unstoppable combo, so you have to choose to block high or low and hope you guess right enough times to win with whatever hits you could get in before you got combo'd to death.])Natural 20 posted:Even if you are right and the time it now takes to beat Pure Vessel by this method is outweighed by how unreliable RNG makes it, as a player, you do not know if relearning the fight is going to take longer than just winning the toss enough times. I will say though, your logic falls apart here. You assert that the most efficient way to handle something ought be the optimal way, but here you say that the player is unsure what the most efficient way is, and therefore a way that might not be the most efficient should be every bit as good. But by the notion: Natural 20 posted:[...] the best design is where the most efficient/fun strat coincide with each other. whether or not the player knows the optimal strat is immaterial. Pogoing Radiant Pure Vessel is established not be efficient, and therefore is under no obligation to be the most fun, regardless of what was true in other cases. It's a different fight, and the un-fun-ness of throwing yourself into a meat grinder hoping you get lucky is a consequence of approaching it inefficiently.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 06:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 17:29 |
|
|
Natural 20 posted:Even if you are right and the time it now takes to beat Pure Vessel by this method is outweighed by how unreliable RNG makes it, as a player, you do not know if relearning the fight is going to take longer than just winning the toss enough times. this is what i don't get. if you DO like hollow knight combat, then why is your goal to optimize the fastest possible way to get a single win and then quit the fight? that's the only way this reasoning makes sense. otherwise, why would it matter if learning a different strategy might take longer than rolling the dice on your current one "enough times"?
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2022 06:27
|
|