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Kehveli posted:More forgivable, probably not, but I'd imagine in a lot of other cases you'd find the perpetrator to break an existing restraining order (in case of say, a crazy ex). Also the reason I brought it up is because a lot of the stuff is currently aimed at journalists and other people who have their names in the public eye as disagreeing with mv-lehti/hommafoorumi views so it is in a sense more corrosive to society as a whole, not to minimise the suffering of a single victim in a case that's not motivated by such things. The state prosecutor recently took the view that it is in the public's interest that this type of harassment against journalists gets investigated, and forced the cops to actually open investigations. So, something is happening on that front.
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Jun 4, 2017 11:12
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doverhog posted:Puhu niille niillä foorumeilla sitten, älä meuhkaa asiasta täällä. yeah i think you probably deserve to be sentenced if you're stupid enough to send death threats with your own name. but the notion (that some of the posters here seem to imply) that dog piling and mob mentality is endemic only to the right, and is problematic only when exercised by the right, is intellectually dishonest and frankly just another form of confirmation bias however, and in conclusion, 
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Jun 4, 2017 11:50
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how can cyber bullying be real if your eyes aren't real? food for thought
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Jun 4, 2017 12:06
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what if cyberspace is your reality?
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Jun 4, 2017 12:11
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Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:yeah i think you probably deserve to be sentenced if you're stupid enough to send death threats with your own name. I hereby call for all the leftists who make death and rape threats to be punished. Let's not consider the political position at all and punish everyone who uses such threats.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:11
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doverhog posted:I hereby call for all the leftists who make death and rape threats to be punished. Let's not consider the political position at all and punish everyone who uses such threats. Seriouspost: I concur whole-heartedly.
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Jun 4, 2017 12:18
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Kemper Boyd posted:Tbh it probably doesn't make too much sense to investigate every time someone says "I'll loving kill you" to someone online. In addition, it's not supported by current legal practice either since a threat is only an illegal threat if it is feasible. So saying you'll shove Juha Sipilä inside a horse is not an illegal threat, since it's not feasible to carry out. niin, koska se preferoi lehmiä
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Jun 4, 2017 12:48
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Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:yeah i think you probably deserve to be sentenced if you're stupid enough to send death threats with your own name. No, it is problematic in all cases. However in Finland only one side of the debate has elected representatives getting sentences for these sort of crimes, daily reports of such threats posted under people's own name, a weird beer camp in central Helsinki where they yell at and assault passerbys, facebook circlejerks where they fantasize for brown people death, street patrols of mainly violent criminals, assaults that lead into deaths, government support from individual MP's, cop circlejerks on facebook where they jack over a suicide attempt... False equivalency is false equivalency matter how many times it is repeated. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 15:31
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Ligur posted:Hitsipilli, varmaan on natzisti. Pitäisiköhän se laittaa vankilaan? It's like there is two things happening at the same time. I wonder how triggered are you when you read the news: There are literally HUNDREDS of things happening around the world, daily. You can have your regularly scheduled shitfit about muslims when sane people talk about terrorism, racism in the police and the horrible dystopian future that kepu will give us. e. i'd rather you had that shitfit on some other forum but what can a man do Fated To Be Fat fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Jun 4, 2017 |
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Jun 4, 2017 16:12
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Those poor plucky musselmen
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Jun 4, 2017 16:32
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If you can spare one hour, listen to this broadcast four days ago about terrorism abroad and in Finland. It'll put things in perspective. http://areena.yle.fi/1-4141268
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Jun 4, 2017 18:16
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DarkCrawler posted:However in Finland only one side of the debate has elected representatives getting sentences for these sort of crimes, because it's not a crime to make bigoted statements about the main population, as evidenced by those sentences, with the added underlier that in some circles only the majority can be considered racist, so they are fair game quote:daily reports of such threats posted under people's own name, facebook circlejerks where they fantasize for brown people death, government support from individual MP's, cop circlejerks on facebook where they jack over a suicide attempt... yeah no. these things are practiced by both sides of the debate. there are differences of course and they are, for example, that direct death threats from the left are more often than not made under pseudonyms, and leftists don't lust for brown death (unless they are an enemy to the cause of course), and that the government support from individual MP's doesn't get reported for multiple possible reasons, and also most cops probably identify more right- than left-wing, so you don't get leftist cop circle jerks. you do however get similar results with any majority left-leaning group, meaning that leftist do in fact fellate over the idea of seeing halla-aho's head on a spike for example quote:assaults that lead into deaths, quote:a weird beer camp in central Helsinki where they yell at and assault passerbys, street patrols of mainly violent criminals, no reason to dispute these
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Jun 4, 2017 19:39
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Lot of hypotheticals in that last post. Or you know, straight up far right lies.
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Jun 4, 2017 19:59
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what were the hypotheticals?
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Jun 4, 2017 20:22
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plz stop engaging the pokemon guy
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Jun 4, 2017 23:58
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Herman Merman posted:plz stop engaging the pokemon guy  
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Jun 5, 2017 00:19
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Jun 5, 2017 00:20
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Herman Merman posted:plz stop engaging the pokemon guy yes, because, you see, i'm a far-right propagandist
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Jun 5, 2017 10:34
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Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:yes, because, you see, i'm a far-right propagandist Admitting your problem is the first step on the road to recovery, so good for you.
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Jun 5, 2017 10:51
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Well, it already cost Fobba his job as leader of hate speech team: https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9650321
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Jun 5, 2017 13:06
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And Marko Forss managed to get himself fired from his position as head of the internet hate crimes task force: https://yle.fi/uutiset/3-9650321 Honestly, the idea to have "social media cops" is something that was from the getgo a really really bad idea. For people who are even mildly critical of the police, it just showed that cops are amazingly incompetent and out of touch.
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Jun 5, 2017 13:06
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Kemper Boyd posted:Honestly, the idea to have "social media cops" is something that was from the getgo a really really bad idea. For people who are even mildly critical of the police, it just showed that cops are amazingly incompetent and out of touch. Apart from anarkomarkos, who would those be? In reality police is the most respected profession in this proto-fascist country and nothing can tarnish their reputation. Also net cops are a good thing, for the average persukansanedustaja it's probably for the better to have a reminder that big brother is watching what they type online. Force them to write their hatepropaganda in closed forums (like the police do) so they won't burden our courts so much.
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Jun 5, 2017 13:57
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Nenonen posted:Apart from anarkomarkos, who would those be? In reality police is the most respected profession in this proto-fascist country and nothing can tarnish their reputation. The things is, that the "most respected profession" thing tends to come from the Poliisibarometri, which is collected by PolAmk (the national police academy for you anglos). The method used is suspect as hell, which for instance this article reveals: http://www.ess.fi/uutiset/kotimaa/art2295711 The police use Reader's Digest for this survey, which means that they poll a rather skewed group, which consists mostly of 60+ yo people. gently caress it if I know where to find the stats are now, so you'll have to take my word for it, but more academic research that something like only 30% of people have a positive image of the police if they have been victims of crime recently. Even criminals have a better opinion of the police than the victims of crime, which is somewhat mindboggling. Considering how many completely conventional middle class people have now gone "hey what the gently caress" at the police after the SE protests at Vesala school and the Long Play article, I'd say the reputation has been tarnished. It's also maybe worth noting that historically speaking, the high regard for the police is an anomaly that rests a lot on clever PR work and juking the stats. The police as late as in the 1970's were not very well regarded at all, but the cops have poured significant resources into PR work to appear more professional and effective than they are. But illusory PR work tends to melt away once reality becomes too apparent. I've actually given lectures on the subject before, and I find the whole PR work angle extremely interesting.
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Jun 5, 2017 14:16
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Bus, meet Fobba, Fobba, meet bus.  I think there's some value in having a real police officer who is easy to reach online, especially for kids, but part of that education needs to be the comprehension that the police isn't your friend and that they can't always help you. I'm actually not that surprised that criminals have a better image of the police than ordinary citizens. If you're a down on your luck petty criminal, the police tend to be the closest thing to a social worker you have and are basically the only people in the world who care about you. When dealing with the police you'll probably get friendlier treatment being a non-hostile 50+ something white alcoholic who engages in the occasional bit of shoplifting and rough sleeping than a 20 year old Finnish kid whose parents are from Somalia who's standing around staissi with friends on a Friday night. It's like a horseshoe where your image of the police is at its highest when you either never deal with them or you have to deal with them constantly (outside of a professional context, anyway).
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Jun 5, 2017 14:31
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Antti posted:a non-hostile 50+ something white alcoholic who engages in the occasional bit of shoplifting and rough sleeping I told you to stop doxxing me
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Jun 5, 2017 15:06
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Antti posted:non-hostile 50+ something white alcoholic who engages in the occasional bit of shoplifting and rough sleeping But enough about Teuvo Hakkarainen.
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Jun 5, 2017 15:25
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Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:because it's not a crime to make bigoted statements about the main population, as evidenced by those sentences, A) This is based on your complete misunderstanding of what the law is. A random dude yelling at the street or an rear end in a top hat making facebook comments is not going to be sentenced for incitement against a group of people. A person using a platform like being an elected politician or publishing a book on the other hand, is. I can be more specific if you want, even by case-by-case basis since it is like the hardest crime to get convicted of and there are like two dozen examples. B) Do you actually have examples of these "bigoted statements about the main population" by elected officials? Preferably who aren't themselves a part of that main population? Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:with the added underlier that in some circles only the majority can be considered racist, so they are fair game The "circles" in your question is are teenagers on tumbrl or something, hardly anything in the context of the immigration debate in Finland. And I truly doubt they hold great sway over our justice system either way. Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:yeah no. these things are practiced by both sides of the debate. Not anywhere close to the same degree or frequency. Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:there are differences of course and they are, for example, that direct death threats from the left are more often than not made under pseudonyms, Most death threats are made under pseudonyms because most people are not complete idiots. Either the right wing has more idiots or their particular idiots for some reason feel more comfortable making these threats under their own name. Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:and leftists don't lust for brown death (unless they are an enemy to the cause of course), Leftists don't lust for the death of any groups of people who have done nothing besides share skin color/religion with some offender in general. Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:and that the government support from individual MP's doesn't get reported for multiple possible reasons, Talking about public statements that are reported. Can you point me out to any made by MPs on the other side of the immigration debate? Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:and also most cops probably identify more right- than left-wing, so you don't get leftist cop circle jerks. Most, not all. Still thousands of police who probably do identify as left wing to some degree. There should be a circlejerk of a dozen people at the least. Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:you do however get similar results with any majority left-leaning group, meaning that leftist do in fact fellate over the idea of seeing halla-aho's head on a spike for example Halla-Aho is a person who himself has fellated over the idea of people dying. You're putting wishing bad things to him to the same level as wishing bad things to someone whose greatest fault was to say, wish Finland to follow the international agreements it has signed. Or being brown. And again, where are all these websites? Where do people who aren't for closing the borders and removing the human rights of anyone who is brown in Finland congregate for their apparent equal level of genocidal hate? Where do they wish for deaths of anyone who is white or Persu in numbers? Where are the constant threats sent to journalists or the circlejerks over some Soldier of Odin trying to commit suicide or whatever? You keep saying that there are equivalent groups online but I haven't seen any news on them. Can you point me out to some examples of incredibly hateful pro-immigration suvakki examples? quote:one junkie getting killed due to complications induced by the assault and subsequent drug use doesn't exactly constitute as assaults that lead into deaths imo, but ymmv He wouldn't have died had he not been assaulted. All your "junkie"/"subsequent drug use killed 'im" is circulated nowhere except on places that try to justify what happened. Fushigi Yuugi fansub posted:no reason to dispute these Because suvakkis don't generally do poo poo like that lol, my whole point. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 15:57
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Kemper Boyd posted:Even criminals have a better opinion of the police than the victims of crime, which is somewhat mindboggling. My gut feeling is that we have relatively little of professional homegrown crime in the sense of burglary rings or protection rackets (as a percentage of all criminal activity or per capita, relative to a lot of other nations) which might have people operate more in a shadow or parallel society of sorts to a more significant degree than drug/alcohol fueled crimes. I mean sure, you do your dealings in the dark so to say, but when you get beat up or stabbed you go to the ER even if you won't call the police on things like I owed Päne 60€ and now my nose hurts. But the same people will be happy for the help when someone burns down your apartment over a borrowed but never returned playstation 3 that you sold for drug money or when your girlfriend has been tied to a radiator for the last three days, both of which are real examples where police help was appreciated even if the same people would be all about acab when being dragged to a drunk tank. You might not want to be a snitch, but when you get dragged along at gunpoint to be a reluctant bystander to a hostage situation involving kids because the dad owes a few hundred euro, that option to make a 112 call suddenly feels a lot more reasonable. Long story short the idea of no snitching is true to a degree, but when things get truly out of hand your average petty criminal or junkie is actually willing to call the cops, especially provided it won't come out they made the call, since the situations can quickly get so extreme or volatile that they don't see a good way out that doesn't involve the police. I was also reminded of the fact that we were extremely proud of our prison system in the 70's until we invited officials from Norway and Sweden to observe it, at which point they promptly shamed us about our outdated and cruel facilities which promptly caused a major overhaul. Kehveli fucked around with this message at 16:14 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 16:11
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Kemper Boyd posted:gently caress it if I know where to find the stats are now, so you'll have to take my word for it ahahaha
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Jun 5, 2017 16:23
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DarkCrawler posted:A) This is based on your complete misunderstanding of what the law is. A random dude yelling at the street or an rear end in a top hat making facebook comments is not going to be sentenced for incitement against a group of people. A person using a platform like being an elected politician or publishing a book on the other hand, is. I can be more specific if you want, even by case-by-case basis since it is like the hardest crime to get convicted of and there are like two dozen examples. lol
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Jun 5, 2017 16:23
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DarkCrawler posted:B) Do you actually have examples of these "bigoted statements about the main population" by elected officials? Preferably who aren't themselves a part of that main population? SKP was established because SDP was incapable of leading Finland to revolution.
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Jun 5, 2017 16:42
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DarkCrawler posted:as we've clearly seen you hang on my every word  Hob_Gadling posted:SKP was established because SDP was incapable of leading Finland to revolution. They got elected to something these days?! Wait, which communists we talking about? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 17:02
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http://www.verkkouutiset.fi/kotimaa/mkarna_vas_%20polis-66296quote:"Yli puolet vasemmistoliiton eduskuntaryhmästä kuuluu FB-ryhmään, jossa fantasioidaan ministerien lahtaamisella" No but police groups are much worse because (insert excuse #156 for why this doesn't count or how it's just random people)
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Jun 5, 2017 17:32
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Geriatric Pirate posted:http://www.verkkouutiset.fi/kotimaa/mkarna_vas_%20polis-66296 lmao
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Jun 5, 2017 18:01
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Geriatric Pirate posted:http://www.verkkouutiset.fi/kotimaa/mkarna_vas_%20polis-66296 Nice whataboutism.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:04
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Cerebral Bore posted:Nice whataboutism. You're right, both extremes are bad
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Jun 5, 2017 18:07
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hmmm yes let's take the claims of a kepu MP at face value
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Jun 5, 2017 18:12
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Herman Merman posted:hmmm yes let's take the claims of a kepu MP at face value You can find screenshots online easily, but it isn't that difficult to imagine a group of mentally ill lefties threatening politicians or fantasizing about a violent revolution (example: this forum)
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Jun 5, 2017 18:17
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Geriatric Pirate posted:You can find screenshots online easily, but it isn't that difficult to imagine a group of mentally ill lefties threatening politicians or fantasizing about a violent revolution (example: this forum) So what you're saying is mentally ill lefties are about on par with clinically sane* right-wingers? Sounds about right. *) Insomuch as such a thing exists since right-wing ideas have been scientifically shown to be literally a brain defect in human beings.
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Jun 5, 2017 18:34
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Geriatric Pirate posted:http://www.verkkouutiset.fi/kotimaa/mkarna_vas_%20polis-66296 Not an excuse. It's not an excuse if you can point out why it is not an equivalent situation, why the source of the comments is a bit questionable and why thus, the reasoning is what it is, based on the gathered information. All it takes is a bit of media literacy and enough effort to actually go beyond one article itself. Let's take the steps here. A) Where was it published? It's Verkkouutiset.fi. The official publication of Kokoomus. Not in itself questionable and they seem to be doing nothing besides quoting a source, but the obvious political angle here should give us at least the prompt to go bit deeper. So... B) Let's look at the sources quoted. A Facebook posting by a member of an opposing political party. Alright, let's look at his stuff then. Already know, that by this hour, they are commenting on things thus far, and look at that, they are providing us with materials that they consider offensive! https://www.facebook.com/lapinpuolustaja/photos/pcb.1933725453572396/1933724750239133/?type=3 So thus far we have 1. A call for a armed revolution 2. A death threat against a minister 3. "Pallo jalkaan ja paskakaivoon" directed against ??? 4. An insult against a "kokkaribimbo" So four examples as of now, two by a same guy, which are hardly comparable to wishing death to anyone with a melanin count of a defined level or a religion shared by 1.6 billion people. No sort of input on whether this sort of talk is common in the group, or even encouraged as in say, Suomi Ensin or Rajat Kiinni. No mention of what the group has put onto it's rules. Wow it's like you might need more information to make a conclusion! Further we go... C) Let's look at the comparison of the two groups in question (I can also compare it with say, Rajat kiinni to see the differences if anyone is interested): A closed facebook group where only police officers, after verifying their identity to a moderator can join with active moderating that has failed to remove said posts, and whose participants have a legal sworn obligation to conduct themselves professionally even outside the job. A group where anyone can join, write anything they want, moderating and banning troublemakers is after-the-fact. And where the moderators have actively fought against violent statements, racist statements and so on. Such as:  but I'm sure Rajat Kiinni would respond the same, right? D) Nothing about any of the above has anything to do with the immigration debate. Just saying. The website itself seems to be more aimed at the current governmental policies regards to economics, and people here seem to assume instantly that left = pro asylum seekers. I don't know the opinions of any of these particular shitheads on immigration. But apparently if you oppose the economic or financial policies of this government it means that you are pro-asylum seeker. Now I am sure the lukihäiriöiset here think that I am writing too much  but here's a secret: if you can read all proper, don't take everything you read at a face value and handle kymmensormijärjestelmä, this takes like minutes at best.
DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:43 on Jun 5, 2017 |
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Jun 5, 2017 18:36
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