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If I am trying to figure out what the going-rate is for an entry level job, albeit one that requires a PhD, in a particular industry/specialty, is looking at the H1B visa rates useful? I was looking up salaries on Glassdoor and other aggregators and discovered that you can find H1B sponsored salaries and they seem a little higher than what is on the aggregator sites. Because of this, I am curious about if anyone has experience with this type of thing or knows how the pay stacks up with people who don't need visas sponsored. More specifically, I'm looking at major pharmaceutical companies that all seem to pay this position "Research Scientist", or some equivalent, in a band that is mostly affected by the location (e.g., San Fran much more than other places).
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Aug 27, 2022 16:41
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I think the going rate is ~$100k in a low cost of living area or $130k in a high one. But I haven’t hired in a couple years. The American chemical society salary calculator is a good starting point for reference. You used to be able to access it for free with script blockers on your browser, but I’m too lazy to boot up my PC to check and see if you still can. Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Aug 27, 2022 |
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Aug 27, 2022 21:16
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Clinical rather than translational/preclinical but none of my "Scientist" level reports are on less than $145k
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Aug 27, 2022 21:51
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NB Scientist means different things at different companies but this is Senior Manager corporate level
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Aug 27, 2022 21:55
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Yeah I’m talking about fresh out of grad school/post doc PhDs in individual contributor roles. Polymer and material science for my team, but I’m competing against biotech to hire. Also the scientist role means a lot of different things at different places.
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Aug 27, 2022 23:46
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Thanks for the info. The fresh out of grad school position is the one I'm talking about. That range of 100-130k still seems pretty close but I was curious because the H1B visas I'm seeing (from https://h1bdata.info/) tend to have their base salaries about 10-20k higher than what Glassdoor is telling me for any particular company. I wanted to gauge which one was more relevant when I start going for interviews and considering offers. Am I right in assuming since these positions are entry level that there isn't much negotiation and more of a, this is what we offer people for your position here? If it matters, I'd imagine I would likely be in pharma product development or pre/early clinical work with my experience.
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Aug 27, 2022 23:58
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There’s a lot less room to negotiate but you can and should still try. If nothing else it’s great practice. Just be ready to hear that the offer is firm.
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Aug 28, 2022 00:43
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OrangeOrbit posted:Thanks for the info. The fresh out of grad school position is the one I'm talking about. That range of 100-130k still seems pretty close but I was curious because the H1B visas I'm seeing (from https://h1bdata.info/) tend to have their base salaries about 10-20k higher than what Glassdoor is telling me for any particular company. I wanted to gauge which one was more relevant when I start going for interviews and considering offers. Am I right in assuming since these positions are entry level that there isn't much negotiation and more of a, this is what we offer people for your position here? If it matters, I'd imagine I would likely be in pharma product development or pre/early clinical work with my experience. It looks like the lag on this h1b data is about 4 months, and the lag on glassdoor is much worse (due to people maybe not posting immediately, but also due to the moving average). I'd trust the h1b data. It makes sense that it would be higher because the job market is pretty great right now.
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Aug 28, 2022 02:54
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So I already posted this in the interview thread but some fellow goons on discord said the negotiations thread might have some different advice so figure I'd put it here as well: So I've recently run into a potential new job/interview counteroffer situation and I'm torn. Never had to deal with a counteroffer before. Basically here's the background. I'm happy at my current job, public sector, health care, with the exception of the pay isn't that great compared to the private sector. A number of weeks ago a private consulting company in the same field reached out to me on LinkedIn about a Senior engineering position. I figured it didn't hurt to hear them out and it turned into the full interview process. The work would be the same field but a different stage of the process than what I currently do, and while it's been a while since I've done some of that kind of work, I know I could do it well. But whether I'd enjoy it as much is a bit of an unknown. Anyway there were a few initial red flags, mainly before the first interview the HR person/recruiter said that while he had said it was senior, management recently changed their minds and wanted intermediate instead. Between that and when I gave them my salary expectations (I figured I wasn't particularly motivated to move at the moment so why not shoot for the moon? Although what I gave was certainly on par for a senior position in the private sector), they balked a bit and indicated the role salary band was a fair bit lower. But basically I said I had a salary line and putting senior back on the table was also something important to me. Cut to the most intense interview process I think I've ever had. Including the HR one, it was four separate remote interviews on different days plus a full day of in person interviews including having to give a 30 min formal presentation on a relevant past project to the team. Like it's not like this is FAANG here and I think it must have been 10-12 hours interviewing in total. One of the in-person ones was a topgrading interview and whoever invented that process should be institutionalized. Two hours of constant questions from my entire career history. I'm in my 30s with a Masters and a decade of experience and they asked about my drat High School extracurriculars. The whole process really left me with a bit of a sour taste in my mouth given the big time investment and the fact that the questions didn't seem like a particular good use of any of our time. Don't get me wrong everyone I met at this company seemed wonderful and friendly but the intensity of the process for what was at the time on paper an intermediate position just made me wary. Every single one of my colleagues in the field seemed pretty shocked when I described what I went through and said they would have told them to pound sand had they been asked to go through it (which might explain why the job has apparently been posted for months and months). Anyway cut to a week or two later and they come back with an offer. Pay wise it's great, a massive bump over where I am now and within the pay expectations I told the first interviewer, and when I got the official offer it was for Senior again. However I'd be giving up six days of vacation and the absolute max in five years would be less than I have now, and I'd lose the defined benefit pension I have now (they have no equivalent pension or retirement account matching program). Both jobs are hybrid but I'd be moving from 3 days home/2 in to 2 days home/3 in, and my commute would go from a nice 20 min walk to 45-60 min on transit. But again, it was a big dollar amount they were throwing around. Because I like my current job I figured it didn't hurt to go to my boss and see what they could do. Without going into exact numbers, they can give me a sizeable bump getting me within 10% of what the other guy is offering base. The other company is offering additional variable comp worth around another 10-12%, but I figure the pension more than makes up for that. I was a bit surprised since I know people who left for more pay (it's almost always been more pay) and they didn't counter with anything like that for them. Plus my current boss also indicated that while I was due to be promoted anyway in a month or so, titles were flexible and I could use Senior if I stayed. Basically, what they're offering is enough of a boost that had they given me this (or told me the promotion would be this) a couple of months ago I would have been happy enough to probably not even go through this whole process. Plus with Canada looking like we're entering a recession real soon, I'm a bit wary of jumping ship from an extremely stable job to being the new guy at place that has had extremely rapid growth over the past few years that, without going into details again, I have concerns about their ability to weather a major recession compared to where I am now. Anyway aside from the question of big $$$ private vs. Public with a solid boost and quality of life, job security, and eventual retirement, I've been trying to figure out what the ups and downs are of accepting a counteroffer and how to best politely turn the other company down if I go for it. There's plenty of articles about downsides to doing it, but they all seem to be written by recruiting firms so they don't seem the most trustworthy. They all go on about being perceived as "disloyal" which is pretty loving funny since company loyalty has been dead for decades in anything vaguely tech related. They also go on about how X% of employees who take counteroffers leave within a year anyway because they were already looking. But I guess in my situation, I wasn't really? So basically if I like the work I do and I think I can still get some career growth here, what are the real downsides to accepting a counteroffer? Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 16:06
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:So I already posted this in the interview thread but some fellow goons on discord said the negotiations thread might have some different advice so figure I'd put it here as well: Others will tell you about the counteroffer situation (90% of the time, it puts a short-to-medium term target on your back indicating you need to be replaced as you're looking elsewhere, and the temporary boosts are just to keep you in place until a succession plan is ready). But one thing to consider (and sorry, it sounds like you may now squeezed from both ends here) is that general management consulting often leads the employment market, and if a recession is coming, consultants will often feel the pinch before industry. (Now if you're doing something like systems integration or outsourcing, that might be different.)
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Sep 12, 2022 16:21
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:So I already posted this in the interview thread but some fellow goons on discord said the negotiations thread might have some different advice so figure I'd put it here as well: Send a response to the offer saying you need another week of vacation to accept the offer as written.
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Sep 12, 2022 16:30
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If they refuse, either take the counter and keep idly interviewing for new roles (with improved BATNA), or take the new role. If you've been at old place more than 4 years, it's probably not a bad idea to move along anyway.
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Sep 12, 2022 16:32
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Clearly a few red flags in that interviewing process, but I would take the offered position at the new company and bank that experience. It will look great on your CV to have switched between public and industry roles and will ease the transition if you want to move to a similar company later. Even if they suck to work for/with you can always move on to a different company later. The transition from public sector to industry can be difficult but once you’ve made that move you have it in the bag.
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Sep 12, 2022 16:46
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Admiralty Flag posted:Others will tell you about the counteroffer situation (90% of the time, it puts a short-to-medium term target on your back indicating you need to be replaced as you're looking elsewhere, and the temporary boosts are just to keep you in place until a succession plan is ready). But one thing to consider (and sorry, it sounds like you may now squeezed from both ends here) is that general management consulting often leads the employment market, and if a recession is coming, consultants will often feel the pinch before industry. (Now if you're doing something like systems integration or outsourcing, that might be different.) While I have to be somewhat vague I'm basically in med tech and the potential recession bit does give me pause partially because of the client base between the two. Currently I deal with the big names, well established multinationals with strong product lines and I'd be moving to working with mostly startup R&D/smaller companies and R&D always tends to have funds dry up in a recession.
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Sep 12, 2022 16:51
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:Anyway aside from the question of big $$$ private vs. Public with a solid boost and quality of life, job security, and eventual retirement, I've been trying to figure out what the ups and downs are of accepting a counteroffer and how to best politely turn the other company down if I go for it. There's plenty of articles about downsides to doing it, but they all seem to be written by recruiting firms so they don't seem the most trustworthy. They all go on about being perceived as "disloyal" which is pretty loving funny since company loyalty has been dead for decades in anything vaguely tech related. They also go on about how X% of employees who take counteroffers leave within a year anyway because they were already looking. But I guess in my situation, I wasn't really? So basically if I like the work I do and I think I can still get some career growth here, what are the real downsides to accepting a counteroffer? I'm in the minority when it comes to counteroffers, and I think they can (and have seen them) work out well in certain situations, and it looks like your situation is one where the counteroffer can work out well. What would be your motivation for leaving your current job? It sounds like you were pretty happy and weren't even looking for a new job, the potential new job reached out to you. If they hadn't would you be looking for a new job? How much money are we talking about here? I may be odd, but I care about overall comp and work environment more than cash compensation. The commute, extra day in the office, loss of the pension, I can put a value on those things. I'm guessing public sector work in Canada is a pretty decent work environment with little to no overtime, outside of regular hours work, etc. It's one thing to go from 60K to 100K, but it's another if you're going from 100K to 120K. The downsides of accepting the counteroffer are to me 1) It's a card you can only play once. You're going to have a tough time trying to do this again in the future. 2) Many times people are looking for a new job for reasons that don't include money. Money is a very short term fix (6 months tops) and will not fix any other issues about being unhappy with the job. It won't fix a bad working environment, or a lovely manager, or anything else. I suspect this is why most people still leave after taking a counteroffer. Money wasn't the primary issue with the job. I've seen counter offers work out in the past, I've even seen them be encouraged, but ONLY when the goal of the counteroffer is to force HR's hand into an out of cycle raise, or pay increase faster than they wanted to give it. If there is anything else you're unhappy about the job, the money isn't going to fix it. I'm pretty risk averse to be honest. I'd take the counter and keep the comfy public sector job and pension plan right now, but that's me. Between the red flags during the interview, and possible economic turmoil I'd personally be quite content to hunker down for a couple years at that gig.
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Sep 12, 2022 16:54
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skipdogg posted:I'm in the minority when it comes to counteroffers, and I think they can (and have seen them) work out well in certain situations, and it looks like your situation is one where the counteroffer can work out well. Money pretty much is the main (and mostly only) motivator. The housing market in Ontario is just so batshit insane. I spend all weekend doing spreadsheets comparing the two roles and seeing what would be affordable for myself and my partner under different circumstances because tiny rear end townhouses on the outskirts are like 700k USD. I genuinely like my current job and the work I do, the people I work with are great, the work is interesting, and I feel respected. The public sector can move slowly sometimes which made this pending promotion take a bit longer than I liked, but my boss kept me well updated on the progress. Basically, had I been bumped to this counter offer three months ago or told me that's what I could expect with the promotion coming I might not have gone through the hassle of this silly interview process. But my pay was 28% lower then. Then they bumped me up with a solid raise before the promotion and said more was coming when it went through. And without going into exact numbers the pay increase for the new guys after the counter would be more the second example than the first.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:06
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leper khan posted:Send a response to the offer saying you need another week of vacation to accept the offer as written. Do this. If they don't budge, take the counter. As a lot of people mentioned, typically this thread recommends against taking a counter (and they're usually right), but public sector health care is short staffed as hell right now. The risks that come with accepting a counteroffer are way less likely to happen. In this case, you'll either get a huge raise with good vacation if the new place accepts your counter or a slightly-smaller-but-still-big raise and good vacation at your current job.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:08
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I think the advice that counter-offers mean you'll be fired is really getting outdated, especially in today's market. The cost of hiring and training someone means the company is almost certainly going to spend more replacing someone who is already a solid worker, and most managers are goaled on retention more than they are pure dollars and cents of salary. Generally I think the employee themselves probably has the best idea if a retaliatory action like that is likely or not. As I posted in the other thread, if I'm reading this right the new job is only 10-15% more money than the old one with the counter, and it means a 40 minute commute vs walking to work. Personally, if I didn't dislike the old job I wouldn't jump ship for that.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:10
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Lockback posted:I think the advice that counter-offers mean you'll be fired is really getting outdated, especially in today's market. The cost of hiring and training someone means the company is almost certainly going to spend more replacing someone who is already a solid worker, and most managers are goaled on retention more than they are pure dollars and cents of salary. Generally I think the employee themselves probably has the best idea if a retaliatory action like that is likely or not. In a rational world you would be right, but people are not rational. It's extremely easy for your (boss's) boss to get petty about stuff. Even though they wrote the counter. But yes it's a very situation specific thing.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:18
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Yeah I'm not too worried about retaliatory firing since 1. As mentioned healthcare is in a tight spot and I'm in a very specialized and hard to find field and 2. Public sector so they'd owe me at least eight months severance at this point I think. And based on people who have left before there doesn't seem to be much pettiness. Alumni regularly show up at company social events, etc.. No idea if someone else has done this before though. Most people I know who left before seemed to indicate counteroffers weren't made or were told they weren't feasible. Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 17:20
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Also in Ontario, and a licensed consulting engineer, my thoughts:
leper khan posted:In a rational world you would be right, but people are not rational. It's extremely easy for your (boss's) boss to get petty about stuff. Even though they wrote the counter. It's a lot harder in the public sector here in Ontario - lots of protections in place for employees.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:20
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Yeah the commute alone would make me pause unless the dollar figure was substantially different, much less losing vacation and a pension. And being public sector, I'm not sure if the counter offer warnings apply.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:25
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This is the first time I've ever written this in this thread, but in your situation I'd take the counter and stay put. This is mostly because I really really hate commuting. Also the chance of your being managed out over the next 6 months, while definitely not zero, is lower than normal for the reasons you described.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:39
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Eric the Mauve posted:This is the first time I've ever written this in this thread, but in your situation I'd take the counter and stay put. This is mostly because I really really hate commuting. Also the chance of your being managed out over the next 6 months, while definitely not zero, is lower than normal for the reasons you described.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:44
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This is highly dependent on your relationship with your current employer and how valuable you are to them but if it is 'reasonable to good' I'd ask for a sit down with them to discuss the delay in your cycle and what their feelings are on you accepting the counter. I still hold the view that if they could afford it now they could before so they have knowingly pulled your pants down once. I'd impress on them that the new role has upward movement and although their counter may seem fair I'd want to know when the next step is and what it looks like - and when I can expect to see it in my wallet every month. Thanks for the promotion, when's the next one? But... I can also be a bit of an rear end in a top hat about these things.
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Sep 12, 2022 18:26
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Yeah after some back and forth I accepted the counter offer. Got it in writing that I've got: 1. The new salary. 2. A new Senior title. 3. A defined plan for continued movement into a lead/team lead position. Thanks for the advice everyone! Now to politely decline the other company. Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 21:29 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 21:26
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Another thread success story. Congratulations!
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Sep 12, 2022 22:38
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Wanted to report back on my own little negotiation journey. Figured it might be a bit instructional in addition to providing some anecdotal evidence of the value of negotiation. For context, I have an excellent BATNA. I have a decently-compensated consulting job in my chosen field with 29 days vacation wherein I managed to finagle WFH despite official company policy being 2-in 3-out hybrid. I was passed over for a promotion this past cycle (found out in late Spring) and was a bit dismayed when I got a mediocre raise despite high inflation and "exceeding expectations" in my performance eval. When I argued the point with my manager, I got what amounted to "let's check back in 6 months." So, I set to looking to get a better idea of what the market looks like, if only to have something to compare my current salary to. I will outline my results below. My current salary is $X. Negotiation A: - Direct competitor. Offer: $X with 4 weeks vacation and 3 days in office. Employer directly stated that the first offer was their best and final, so I did not offer a counter. I rejected the offer the next day. Negotiation B: - Direct competitor. Offer: $X with 4 weeks vacation and 3 days in office, plus an EESOP with 6% annual contribution besides the typical 401(k). My counter: $X + $45k. Negotiated to: $X + Work-from-home. Sat on that for a while to see if they'd crack, ended up turning it down after being pressed for an answer. Negotiation C: - Same work, but on the client level. Offer: $X - 9% with 3 weeks vacation with 3 days in office, plus 15% guaranteed bonus each year - put me at about $X+5.5% all said. Employer's rep stated the offer was non-negotiable. Sat on that for a while to see if they'd come up, ended up turning it down. Negotiation D: - Complete career pivot to a defense contractor. Offer: $X + 25% with 4 weeks vacation and full remote, plus guaranteed further 20% escalation if I got a very high-level government clearance (typ a 1 or 2-year process). Meh benefits. Once the clearance is in, full in-office ~30 minutes away, no exceptions. My counter: $X +25% + $15k. Negotiated to: $X + 25% + $5k, plus $5k signing bonus. Tentatively accepted, but they became disorganized and uncommunicative in the hiring process to the point where I did not give my current employer notice. Technically still an option but I'm a little sketched out at this point. Negotiation E: - Similar to my current work but tending to a specific facility for a world-famous nonprofit. This came via an internal recruiter through LinkedIn. Offer: $X + 25% with 15 days vacation, 7 sick, and "as-needed" attendance ~25 minute easy car commute away. Fantastic benefits. My counter: $X +25% + $15k. Negotiated to: $X + 25% + $5k, plus $10k signing bonus. Currently evaluating, but I think I will accept. Key takeaways from my investigations: - Having an excellent BATNA was HUGELY advantageous in this process. I was able to easily turn down marginal increases without really any hesitation. I did not fall into the "changing just to change" pitfall. - NEVER EVER EVER TELL ANYONE WHAT YOU CURRENTLY MAKE. If the other party gets pushy, they are more interested in cheaping out than getting a good employee. Just say "no" if they get uppity and let your silence speak for itself. - 3rd party recruiters aren't necessarily bad people, but they are not your friends. Waste as little time as possible with them; you can play the long game and get good low-stakes practice in by withholding a number as long as possible, but I found I saved a lot of time by just telling them about my (admittedly high) salary target. - Some places simply will not play ball. gently caress 'em. - Change is hard. Negotiating is hard. Practicing made it easier, but I was still occasionally panic-attacking my way through the process over the past few months. I consider this hard-won growth. - It's a numbers game. It was due to persistence and patience that I ended up with two great offers. Having time on my side was key in this process.
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Sep 12, 2022 23:33
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Not a Children posted:Negotiation A: In this situation, is there a reason to not try to negotiate anyway? For practice, perhaps they're bluffing, etc? Of if they say they aren't negotiating, believe them and just move on?
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Sep 13, 2022 00:07
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I suppose I could have attempted to force the issue, but I did directly ask after they presented the verbal offer over teleconference, "is this your best and final?" and they replied in the affirmative. In my view, that's the end of negotiation unless they're willing to contradict themselves, which is a game I didn't think was worth playing for a meh offer.
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Sep 13, 2022 00:19
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Not a Children posted:- 3rd party recruiters aren't necessarily bad people Most of them are, though. You should never, ever feel the tiniest bit bad about telling a 3rd party recruiter to go make sweet love to a table saw. Magnetic North posted:In this situation, is there a reason to not try to negotiate anyway? For practice, perhaps they're bluffing, etc? Of if they say they aren't negotiating, believe them and just move on? Waste of time. When a company says "this is our only/final offer, take it or leave it," they almost always mean it, and also, they've just given away that they're not interested in finding a good employee, just a cheap one.
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Sep 13, 2022 00:40
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Not every first offer is a bad one. Don't confuse winning a negotiation with merely moving the number past the first offer.
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Sep 13, 2022 01:46
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Yeah but in this case he specified it was a weak offer.
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Sep 13, 2022 02:12
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I would ask for the additional days off and whatever else is giving you pause. If they agree, jump ship, otherwise it sounds like the counter is what you want.
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Sep 13, 2022 06:01
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They absolutely will not budge on vacation as a matter of policy - I asked about the possibility a couple times over the course of interviews and there was absolutely no movement or consideration. This particular institution has a reputation for leaning on their great benefits/reputation but providing low base salaries, so I was surprised to get a competitive salary offer from them. I’ve heard from a few people who work there (from outside my interview process) that there’s excellent flexibility allowed in the work schedule, so I think I can hack losing some PTO til I earn another week.
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Sep 13, 2022 12:00
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Not a Children posted:They absolutely will not budge on vacation as a matter of policy - I asked about the possibility a couple times over the course of interviews and there was absolutely no movement or consideration.
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Sep 13, 2022 15:28
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Arquinsiel posted:Any time I hear the words "a matter of policy" as a reason to say no to something it always just makes me ask "okay so since it's your policy why not change it?". It never actually benefits me any but I like the little moment of panic it causes. I enjoy this
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Sep 14, 2022 07:00
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Lurker here. CA put a bill on the governor's desk for salary disclosures when hiring. Just in time for my job hunt next June when I retire from the Federal govt. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theregister.com/AMP/2022/09/06/california_lawmakers_pass_bill_requiring/
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Sep 14, 2022 07:41
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Arquinsiel posted:Any time I hear the words "a matter of policy" as a reason to say no to something it always just makes me ask "okay so since it's your policy why not change it?". It never actually benefits me any but I like the little moment of panic it causes. The HR person who makes these sorts of policies is almost always lower down than the person that approves senior level salaries. Just sayin’
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Sep 14, 2022 13:55
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I tried a few different ways of feeling out the sincerity with 4 different people involved in the hiring process (including the person who advocated on my behalf for approving a salary outside of the preordained bands) and the result I got each time was a hard "PTO is non-negotiable." I am a big advocate of getting more PTO if you can (and in fact when I do my apples-to-apples calcs I value PTO at 2x its hourly-equivalent comp) but it was unfortunately a non-starter here. That said, I realize my anecdote for this particular employer is not typical, and in general one should always reach for as much PTO as they can.
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Sep 14, 2022 14:16
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